^ I need some emoji designed for the City Project list's planned column..... emoji of rotting carcass = probably dead; sleeping bear = in hibernation; ouiji board = maybe, maybe not, check back later; rocket ship = about to lift off.
Presby tweeted the Midtown Station appears to have undergone a severe diet.
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http://www.paceproperties.com/propertie ... spx?ID=477
Just 3 buildings accessed via Vandeventer and 10,350 sq. ft. largest leasable space.
The plus side of this is that it gives hope for a more urban form for whatever comes to the FPP frontage but I'd hate for the abandoned Federal Mogul site to continue to blight with no good prospects. But then you throw in the odd announcement of Six Row closing and looking for a new location and it makes you wonder if something different/larger is afoot.
http://www.paceproperties.com/propertie ... spx?ID=477
Just 3 buildings accessed via Vandeventer and 10,350 sq. ft. largest leasable space.
The plus side of this is that it gives hope for a more urban form for whatever comes to the FPP frontage but I'd hate for the abandoned Federal Mogul site to continue to blight with no good prospects. But then you throw in the odd announcement of Six Row closing and looking for a new location and it makes you wonder if something different/larger is afoot.
Underwhelming. With all the positives in the flyer you'd think they''d be aspiring for more.
http://www.paceproperties.com/Files/Mid ... ochure.pdf
http://www.paceproperties.com/Files/Mid ... ochure.pdf
Wow, this new proposal is so bad - with each building completely surrounded by drive-thrus and parking - that I'd actually prefer if it was a strip mall. Then at least a pedestrian could walk from one store to another without crossing through parking and driveways. What a complete fail. Hopefully they have trouble finding tenants for this proposal as well and go back to the drawing board yet again.
I don't know who has the power to prevent this, but at this point that's exactly what needs to be done. The project's site plan was questionable from the get go, but this is downright awful. I'd much rather it sit empty and wait for something better.
Could it be the cost of site clean-up was too much?
Or could it be that CORTEX wants to bank the land for other CORTEX development?
Or could it be that the site will be developed into something more interesting by Pace or another developer?
Or could it be that CORTEX wants to bank the land for other CORTEX development?
Or could it be that the site will be developed into something more interesting by Pace or another developer?
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^ I have a lot of questions on this. But one thing to clarify is that this is out of the Cortex district.
If environmental issues at the old Federal Mogul site are a big problem, you'd think that the Vandeventer side just shown would have high density retail rather than a paucity.... seems to me that the basic issue is attracting retailers. It's possible they are flocking to some unknown parcels elsewhere in the area making a higher density Midtown Station more challenging but it doesn't appear so. Another scenario is something more complex and hopefully more ambitious and mixed-use is brewing on the Mogul site that may or may not include the Six Row parcel, but again if that were the case you'd think that would lead to more retail on the Vandeventer side as well.
I hope the Vandeventer side doesn't move forward as depicted.
If environmental issues at the old Federal Mogul site are a big problem, you'd think that the Vandeventer side just shown would have high density retail rather than a paucity.... seems to me that the basic issue is attracting retailers. It's possible they are flocking to some unknown parcels elsewhere in the area making a higher density Midtown Station more challenging but it doesn't appear so. Another scenario is something more complex and hopefully more ambitious and mixed-use is brewing on the Mogul site that may or may not include the Six Row parcel, but again if that were the case you'd think that would lead to more retail on the Vandeventer side as well.
I hope the Vandeventer side doesn't move forward as depicted.
Yeah, I that is outside of the boundaries, but I was only speculating.roger wyoming II wrote: But one thing to clarify is that this is out of the Cortex district.
Could it be that because of the rapid development of Cortex, Fed-Mogul might be added?
To be clear, I don't know what's happening, but adding the Fed-Mogul site would make a lot of sense for Cortex.
I just hope whatever happens, it's quality development.
Arch city brings up some great questions, my question to add to the list
- Is this being driven by Target forgoing a superstore or big box store with Pace for possibly a CityTarget within CORTEX as Geoff alluded too?
Can't help to add that speculation to the mix.
Wabash nailed it, my opinion is this is at point that it would be better if Pace would just pack up and go home. Split up the site and offer to multiple developers. This looks like a great spot for more mixed use, residential and think make for a great Trader Joe's location. The stark difference to what has happen to the commerce site to the south and eventual development by Green Streets and how this location is devolving from big box strip to stand alone drive thru's
- Is this being driven by Target forgoing a superstore or big box store with Pace for possibly a CityTarget within CORTEX as Geoff alluded too?
Can't help to add that speculation to the mix.
Wabash nailed it, my opinion is this is at point that it would be better if Pace would just pack up and go home. Split up the site and offer to multiple developers. This looks like a great spot for more mixed use, residential and think make for a great Trader Joe's location. The stark difference to what has happen to the commerce site to the south and eventual development by Green Streets and how this location is devolving from big box strip to stand alone drive thru's
Well that's.....sh*tty.quincunx wrote:Underwhelming. With all the positives in the flyer you'd think they''d be aspiring for more.
http://www.paceproperties.com/Files/Mid ... ochure.pdf
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^^ arch, I'm sure there could be more informal collaboration and planning but I believe there would need to be local and possibly state legislation to expand the Cortex district. I do seem to recall some references to the cleared SLU property along Chouteau across from the Pevely site as potentially being in the Cortex sphere but I don't recall details.
Anyway, I do wonder how large the "tech district" will expand... will we see more things like Gadellnet (in Vandegrove) and Cofactor (in Cortex's outer edge) emerge to such an extent that the boundaries of Cortex are seen as the anchor, but just a part, of a larger technopolis?
Anyway, I do wonder how large the "tech district" will expand... will we see more things like Gadellnet (in Vandegrove) and Cofactor (in Cortex's outer edge) emerge to such an extent that the boundaries of Cortex are seen as the anchor, but just a part, of a larger technopolis?
I thought about the possibility of Target going into the Cortex parcel as well but that would seem to apply more to the scale for the Federal Mogul site and doesn't seem to explain the significant down-sizing of the Vandeventer side.... even if a CityTaget went across the street it would still drive demand for Pace on the Vandy side. Just seems weird. And fwiw, I think the earlier rendition of the Vandy side wasn't too bad.... two decent-sized (10,000 sq. ft.?) buildings on other side of the access point and a third smaller building in the rear. But this latest just doesn't seem worth supporting.dredger wrote:Arch city brings up some great questions, my question to add to the list
- Is this being driven by Target forgoing a superstore or big box store with Pace for possibly a CityTarget within CORTEX as Geoff alluded too?
Can't help to add that speculation to the mix.
Wabash nailed it, my opinion is this is at point that it would be better if Pace would just pack up and go home. Split up the site and offer to multiple developers. This looks like a great spot for more mixed use, residential and think make for a great Trader Joe's location. The stark difference to what has happen to the commerce site to the south and eventual development by Green Streets and how this location is devolving from big box strip to stand alone drive thru's
^ I wonder if it is driven by some fast food franchise owners in the region looking for a way into the immediate area and Pace obliging or maybe Pace way of saying that here is your opportunity to put in a drive through to McDonalds, and the likes after not getting the strong demand as anticipated from national retail chains. I still think Target one or another played a big role. Just like to be the fly on the wall.
In some ways, I think you might have the wrong developer for the site or vice versa. Much like most of us would probably agree that Cordish not having strong local association problaby one of the many reasons why they turned out to be the wrong developer for BPV, or at least in my mind.
In some ways, I think you might have the wrong developer for the site or vice versa. Much like most of us would probably agree that Cordish not having strong local association problaby one of the many reasons why they turned out to be the wrong developer for BPV, or at least in my mind.
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^ the other thing that comes to mind for the Mogul site is to look at who bought the homes to the west of it.... you have to wonder if something is under consideration for that Forest Park Ave side that may or may not involve Pace. The closure of Six Row, the McGowan couple buying the homes, and Pace not showing anything for the Mogul site is just too much to not go ahead and start up the Speculatron (TM).
Kind of a stretch of a thought... but I'm betting whatever is going into these small little buildings, potentially with drive-thrus, are minimum-wage paying jobs.
I don't like the idea that a significant wage hike would prevent businesses from locating in the city, but if it stalls this development as it currently stands, I'd be all for that...
I don't like the idea that a significant wage hike would prevent businesses from locating in the city, but if it stalls this development as it currently stands, I'd be all for that...
I don't think State legislation would be necessary to expand Cortex.roger wyoming II wrote:^^ arch, I'm sure there could be more informal collaboration and planning but I believe there would need to be local and possibly state legislation to expand the Cortex district. I do seem to recall some references to the cleared SLU property along Chouteau across from the Pevely site as potentially being in the Cortex sphere but I don't recall details.
Anyway, I do wonder how large the "tech district" will expand... will we see more things like Gadellnet (in Vandegrove) and Cofactor (in Cortex's outer edge) emerge to such an extent that the boundaries of Cortex are seen as the anchor, but just a part, of a larger technopolis?
As far as I know, Cortex is truly a city-institutional-private effort. Washington University, Saint Louis University, BJC Healthcare, the University of Missouri-St. Louis, Wexford Science & Technology and the Missouri Botanical Garden along with the City of St. Louis have collaborated to build Cortex thus far. If the State was involved in any way, you best believe a CORTEX-like district would have popped up in Springfield, Cape Girardeau, Kansas City and Columbia by now.
The State wouldn't even give $10-million for a new MetroLink Station. Has Missouri even helped with road improvements around the district? If left to the State of Missouri to assist, IKEA would be getting built in Fenton.
^ I guess you could argue that state contribution was in new Boyle/I64 intersection but even then BJC/Wash U made a healthy contribution when it came to replacing bridges on that stretch of freeway. Personally, I think the state can better facilitate with good tax credit system and startup funding mechanisms. In other words, state can certainly and will be an asset if CORTEX can land a company expanding and or relocation
I'm just confused or lost on the fact that the downsize of leaseable square footage in the footprint. From Opus to Bruce Mills/Whole foods to a number of other developments inside and out of CORTEX is about adding more square footage overall if not mistaken. Heck, even the Salvation Army grand plan is more space not less if I'm not mistaken.
This reminds of Pace giving up on the residential tower of phase three of The Boulevards when recession hit, property changing hands (not sure who had the land at that point) and then the very underwhelming proposal by Sansone I believe to do a mini strip mall along Brentwood with a brochure calling it a premier shopping location.
I'm just confused or lost on the fact that the downsize of leaseable square footage in the footprint. From Opus to Bruce Mills/Whole foods to a number of other developments inside and out of CORTEX is about adding more square footage overall if not mistaken. Heck, even the Salvation Army grand plan is more space not less if I'm not mistaken.
This reminds of Pace giving up on the residential tower of phase three of The Boulevards when recession hit, property changing hands (not sure who had the land at that point) and then the very underwhelming proposal by Sansone I believe to do a mini strip mall along Brentwood with a brochure calling it a premier shopping location.
They should have to announce all developments at an event so we can publicly boo them.dweebe wrote:Well that's.....sh*tty.quincunx wrote:Underwhelming. With all the positives in the flyer you'd think they''d be aspiring for more.
http://www.paceproperties.com/Files/Mid ... ochure.pdf
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After further review I think you are right.... for some reason I had it in the back of my head that Cortex had some quasi-governmental powers like eminent domain but it appears it doesn't... it is a 501(c)(3) entity that has Section 353 abatement within the designated district, which I believe is conferred by the municipality. And on a cortex thread, Ward 17 said that originally the district was planned to be much larger.arch city wrote: I don't think State legislation would be necessary to expand Cortex.
A) there's no Target deal in CORTEX or at Midtown Crossings. It was a wrong rumor. Hope I'm wrong but Im not.
B) Pace is in the business of making money. If they felt there was enough demand/rent to justify a bigger development --> they would be building a bigger development with this site.
C) with that said, It just looks like to me that they're doing the site in phases. The phase closer to Vandeventer was mostly always small shop retail. I think in Phase 2, they will roll out some bigger retail like grocery, soft goods, hardware, etc. Phasing on retail projects this large is normal.
D) I know everyone wants a dense, mixed use Chicago style project on every parcel for sale in St Louis City -- that is simply not the reality from a demand and ROI perspective in St Louis metro in current times.
B) Pace is in the business of making money. If they felt there was enough demand/rent to justify a bigger development --> they would be building a bigger development with this site.
C) with that said, It just looks like to me that they're doing the site in phases. The phase closer to Vandeventer was mostly always small shop retail. I think in Phase 2, they will roll out some bigger retail like grocery, soft goods, hardware, etc. Phasing on retail projects this large is normal.
D) I know everyone wants a dense, mixed use Chicago style project on every parcel for sale in St Louis City -- that is simply not the reality from a demand and ROI perspective in St Louis metro in current times.
^ That doesn't mean we should settle for a suburban style development, though.
If the demand isn't there now, then wait. It's as simple as that.
This area is primed to take off. I'd rather gamble on that happening than I would build something subpar.
If the demand isn't there now, then wait. It's as simple as that.
This area is primed to take off. I'd rather gamble on that happening than I would build something subpar.
^ Yes, I think people are more upset at the blatant disregard for urban form in their design, not so much that it doesn't have a large residential component. It's pretty common place now to build street facing retail with parking in the back, at least in most urban centers. It's not that hard to do and it just makes for a much more inviting and attractive urban environment. We have to get to a point where the city stops letting corporate interest dictate what kind of city what should have. Great cities don't fold to developers at ever chance..
KB, I get where you're coming from, and it's totally valid. But come on, this is an absolute sh*t site plan and doesn't need to be.
IKEA will be attracting a ton of car shoppers from far and wide, and that makes it pretty valid to cater to them. But this site is also 1-1/2 blocks from SLU, 1/2 block from The Standard, and part of a broader attempt to create a more cohesive neighborhood between SLU, Cortex, The Grove, and CWE.
Having each and every store on it's own island of parking and driveways is just complete overkill. Even if a mixed-use pedestrian-oriented lifestyle center that everyone wants isn't justified from a demand and ROI perspective, this simplistic auto-centric space-is-no-object Chesterfield Valley crap isn't justified from a design perspective.
Even if this is a Phase I of something larger, with more planned to go up behind it, there are much better ways of going about that. A good example of that is The Market at McKnight. Certainly not ideal from an urbanist perspective, but at least it creates a street wall and lets pedestrians walk from shop to shop (albeit on the parking lot side) while catering to tenants that employ a more auto/parking reliant business model.
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I agree with you that, as developers, Pace's first, second, and third goals can and should be making money. But that doesn't mean any financially feasible design shouldn't be scrutinized or can't be improved upon in a cost neutral or even profitable manner. A good example of that would be the Lindell CVS. In that case the NIMBYism and pushback led to a mutually agreeable outcome (one that I image ingratiated or at least succeeded in not alienating a number of future customers):
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KB, I know you know all of this and that because of the interest you take and the business you're in you don't need the illustrations or explanations. But some constructive debate on the shortcomings of this site plan is completely valid and potentially constructive.
IKEA will be attracting a ton of car shoppers from far and wide, and that makes it pretty valid to cater to them. But this site is also 1-1/2 blocks from SLU, 1/2 block from The Standard, and part of a broader attempt to create a more cohesive neighborhood between SLU, Cortex, The Grove, and CWE.
Having each and every store on it's own island of parking and driveways is just complete overkill. Even if a mixed-use pedestrian-oriented lifestyle center that everyone wants isn't justified from a demand and ROI perspective, this simplistic auto-centric space-is-no-object Chesterfield Valley crap isn't justified from a design perspective.
Even if this is a Phase I of something larger, with more planned to go up behind it, there are much better ways of going about that. A good example of that is The Market at McKnight. Certainly not ideal from an urbanist perspective, but at least it creates a street wall and lets pedestrians walk from shop to shop (albeit on the parking lot side) while catering to tenants that employ a more auto/parking reliant business model.
I agree with you that, as developers, Pace's first, second, and third goals can and should be making money. But that doesn't mean any financially feasible design shouldn't be scrutinized or can't be improved upon in a cost neutral or even profitable manner. A good example of that would be the Lindell CVS. In that case the NIMBYism and pushback led to a mutually agreeable outcome (one that I image ingratiated or at least succeeded in not alienating a number of future customers):
KB, I know you know all of this and that because of the interest you take and the business you're in you don't need the illustrations or explanations. But some constructive debate on the shortcomings of this site plan is completely valid and potentially constructive.
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^ right... this is a huge let down from earlier renditions of the Vandeventer side.... the two earlier versions were fairly decent... while I doubt they would have had Vandy-facing entrances or been the most appealing visually, the buildings did relate to the street well and held a formidable presence. (I believe the version from last fall had two 10,000 sq. ft. buildings on either side of the access point with a third 10,000 sq. ft. building in the interior.)
This latest rendering however is a big turd in that the buildings are not only scaled back but don't relate well at all to the street.... if we can put a sit-down chain restaurant that relates fairly well to the street like the South City Applebee's in South CIty at Kingshighway and Chippewa we can do at least as well as that in Midtown Station. This is plain awful and shouldn't move forward.
This latest rendering however is a big turd in that the buildings are not only scaled back but don't relate well at all to the street.... if we can put a sit-down chain restaurant that relates fairly well to the street like the South City Applebee's in South CIty at Kingshighway and Chippewa we can do at least as well as that in Midtown Station. This is plain awful and shouldn't move forward.
^Ehhh. Let's not even settle for that please. That Applebee's only looks half-way decent based on the utter awfulness that surrounds it to 3 directions.
I don't understand why it's so hard for City officials to stand up for urban form. The businesses would listen. They would!
I don't understand why it's so hard for City officials to stand up for urban form. The businesses would listen. They would!