urbanSTL

The developer's interest is fleeting. Even if the current plan is to own and lease the space, they can always change their mind and sell or abandon it.

What's the ROI for the city? The city and its citizens are on the hook to provide infrastructure and services to it. We must demand more productive land uses or we'll never be able to afford the level of infrastructure and services we'd like. 18k sf of place on 165k sf, 3.78 acres, of land.

I hope they're not looking for a TIF or abatement. It'll be receiving subsidy by default just because of its low-productivity.

I agree with everyone. The plan doesn't for the market. My guess is that the tenants they have lined up have pushed for a parking intensive site plan as they're showing.

Anyone have thoughts on why Midtown Station would or wouldn't be a good candidate for a midsizie or midrise hotel development from someone other than Drury and CORTEX folks who both have their vested locations. Can understand KB stating that Pace would be looking to develop something other then residential as a lot of units are coming online. But I don't think anyone has thrown out the idea of a hotel on the Vande ave site.

I'm just a little perplexed that another hotel proposal/development, beyond what was built, in FPSE hasn't come forth yet and or that Drury is not moving forward on its original proposal. This area seem ripe for some more hotel rooms.

Midtown Station along Vande has the freeway access and the visibility plus with a tie in via the rail trestle a nifty transit connection. It will undoubtly have the proximity to Ikea for out of town shoppers (who might find its location convenient for Forest Park one way and sporting events the other way) and to the varied institutions as well as business traffic in and out of CORTEX.

Maybe the munis in question should shoot for earnings taxes on businesses. Then they could shoot each other in the feet with TIF's to nullify those, too.

This plan is dead. Roddy says they want a car optional neighborhood, Pace didn't want to budge. My guess is Roddy will be looking for a new developer. Good news if you ask me. Better to wait for a better plan than jump on the first thing smoking.

Thankfully this site will get a chance for a much more urban and mixed-use orientation..... hopefully that will come sooner rather than later.

Arch City -- new urbanism does not work and will probably never work in St Louis. You like the Boulevard in Richmond Heights but its not a successful development and one I'd guess the developers wish they had never done. I think the quote I heard was "we would have made more money on a Walgreens build to suit". Maggiano's and PF Changes do national average sales volumes. Nadoz is for sale. Retail tenants move in and out. Crate & Barrel is probably the only tenant there that is doing well because its the only store in St Louis, so its a destination. Also, I don't think Pace dropped the project because the alderman wanted a different plan. I think they dropped it because the risk was too great for the reward.

We have no population or wage growth in St Louis. Its a fact. The only way to support massive developments like this is the result of the aforementioned. In Dallas, they have more people moving there in a week, than St Louis does in a year. People are making good money in Dallas, not the case in St Louis. Places like Dallas also have a low cost of living.

There's already a lot of discussion amongst developers that all the new apartments being built in Clayton and CWE are too much supply. With a ton more on the way. The people moving into these apartments will be relocations from other parts of St Louis, not "net new" residents -- so its like a game of checkers. BTW -- I think one of the losers in this game of checkers will be downtown. This area provides for an urban-ish lifestyle but is closer to Clayton/CWE.

As for the Federal Mogul site -- and this won't be popular here -- is that the site needs a TON of parking (hopefully garage, not parking fields). You have an interstate to the south and two major roads to the west and north. If this site had limited parking and everyone had to walk to it from the surrouding area -- it would fail and it would be a safety issue. A) people will just park at IKEA and walk across Vandeventer which will cause IKEA to put up signs for IKEA parking only and have people monitoring the parking field. B) people would find it too difficult to shop and just go to Brentwood which is just minutes down I64. C) If will be very difficult to lease the project as tenants will be concerned about parking.

Lets just face it -- St Louis is a car-centric town. Successful developments will have a lot of parking. Its unavoidable. I know this drives people nuts on this message board but that is St Louis. We drive. I remember living on Wash Ave, after a couple visits to Culinaria after it opened and walking 6 blocks back with a bunch of groceries...almost everyone in our building (including myselft) just drove to Culinaria, loaded the car up (like the burbs), and drove back to the loft.

The only way to get a way from a car centric mentality is for St Louis to hit an enormous population growth where the highways and major roads are a traffic nightmare which forces people to walk or ride public transportation to get food, services, daily needs because its more convenient than driving. Like NYC or Chicago. We are so far from this happening, its not even a possibility.

The best thing that could happen to this site would be a large corporate HQs deal with office space above retail space. Or maybe SLU buying it to expand their campus (and actually do something with it -- aka not turn it into a field of grass). Both unlikely. Other than those 2 scenarios -- Retail with parking is the best use for the site. All buildings pushed up the three roads with parking in the middle. I just don't think there's enough demand from tenants to pay the rent it will take to develop this expensive site.

-KBS

Golf clap for injecting reality into these discussions!

^

been saying something similar for a long time...we are who we are and changing it is just not going to happen in a year, 5, 10 or 20...in 30 years...maybe, until then trying to force change will just turn off people.

Forgot one thing. CORTEX should buy the site, clean it up, get it to the point of shovel-ready, then sell it off in 2-3-4 pieces to the right developments over time. The site is too big of a risk for one developer.

^ With all fairness, I don't think it is a proven fact that new urbanist development is a failure. We have such a limited supply of anything that is new or urban to really know if a true TOD or new urbanist development would work in St. Louis. I would also like to give some push back about the idea of shuffling people around. Most of the apartments being built in the central corridor are being built for transplants and millenials, not for people that would sell their home in Chesterfield for a "new urbanist" lifestyle. Native St. Louisans are actually leaving the metro in droves, the only reason the metro hasn't imploded is because of international migration and birth rates. While St. Louis is virtually stagnant in the sense of population, the demographics are rapidly changing. Its getting way more diverse every year and if St. Louis hopes to retain these people it will have to provide a lifestyle outside a homogenous cul-de-sac. Now I do agree that we will see NOTHING like Dallas infill in St. Louis for obvious reasons. I think most of the push back is about the design. This will be nothing more than a retail development in my opinion, but in one of the most urban neighborhoods in St. Louis we can demand that parking be put in the back and buildings be pushed up to the street. The problem with St. Louis developers is that they are rarely told how they should operate in our neighborhoods and are used to telling neighborhoods how they will blight our communities. Its time for a change, this plan has obviously regressed from its original renderings and I don't think that's acceptable.

You HAVE to force the change. Limit the attrition of the auto and reject the erosion of pedestrians. Building a system that actually promotes pedestrian activity and road diets will go a long way. A walkable environment will creat businesses and people will want to be there.

After 6 years I still walk the 8 blocks to Culinaria and it's my favorite part of the week. It's not a fad.

dbInSouthCity wrote:^

been saying something similar for a long time...we are who we are and changing it is just not going to happen in a year, 5, 10 or 20...in 30 years...maybe, until then trying to force change will just turn off people.

Who are we? What? Too many assumptions about St. Louisans as a whole. This kind of thinking likely attributes to brain drain. Progressive cities dont accept who they are and whittle on the vine. They seek change, they evolve, they adapt to new realities.

Let me get it straight. There is no way things are going to change so we should stop trying. We are doomed to drive everywhere until the city is extinct. And that's just the way it will have to be.

Jeez. Does the last 10 yrs of change in the city not inspire you guys, even a little bit?

kbshapiro wrote:Forgot one thing. CORTEX should buy the site, clean it up, get it to the point of shovel-ready, then sell it off in 2-3-4 pieces to the right developments over time. The site is too big of a risk for one developer.

THIS.

imran wrote:Let me get it straight. There is no way things are going to change so we should stop trying. We are doomed to drive everywhere until the city is extinct. And that's just the way it will have to be.

Jeez. Does the last 10 yrs of change in the city not inspire you guys, even a little bit?

in the city it does but nothing has changed in St.Louis County and it wont.

but what has really changed in the city? we are still bleeding population and jobs and companies.
when you dig deep in census data, even tho the pop lose has somewhat slowed down its still very troubling to see the actual numbers and groups moving out and who is moving in.

dbInSouthCity wrote:

imran wrote:Let me get it straight. There is no way things are going to change so we should stop trying. We are doomed to drive everywhere until the city is extinct. And that's just the way it will have to be.

Jeez. Does the last 10 yrs of change in the city not inspire you guys, even a little bit?

in the city it does but nothing has changed in St.Louis County and it wont.

but what has really changed in the city? we are still bleeding population and jobs and companies.
when you dig deep in census data, even tho the pop lose has somewhat slowed down its still very troubling to see the actual numbers and groups moving out and who is moving in.

More of a reason to support N-S over Westport.....