Midtown Station - Pace Retail Development

olvidarte · PostJun 24, 2015#2262015-06-24T14:41+00:00

Cars are a reality in St. Louis and we have to have a place to put them. I get that and it doesn't bother me. What does irritate me is that we sacrifice a urban design for parking. There are ways to incorporate parking and a urban design, I've seen it done a million times with examples on this very site.

The other thing is people who don't want to push things in a new direction are typically people who have a formula that works for them and they don't want to change it. I used to work for a commercial real estate firm and the one thing I learned was innovative thinking and risk taking is not something these people do. They work within a prescribed formula that caters to the specific, targeted demographics they've outlined.

I get it, they want to make money, but sometimes I think developers in this town underestimate what STL is ready for.

I'd argue one of the reasons we are bleeding population, jobs, etc. is because STL isn't seen as innovative or exciting, we need to push ourselves and our boundaries because we really can't afford to stay the same and be who we are.

downtown2007 · PostJun 24, 2015#2272015-06-24T14:41+00:00

goat314 wrote:
dbInSouthCity wrote:
imran wrote:Let me get it straight. There is no way things are going to change so we should stop trying. We are doomed to drive everywhere until the city is extinct. And that's just the way it will have to be.

Jeez. Does the last 10 yrs of change in the city not inspire you guys, even a little bit?
in the city it does but nothing has changed in St.Louis County and it wont.

but what has really changed in the city? we are still bleeding population and jobs and companies.
when you dig deep in census data, even tho the pop lose has somewhat slowed down its still very troubling to see the actual numbers and groups moving out and who is moving in.

Most of the people rapidly leaving are less educated and less wealthy than people moving in. The county is actually more delusional than the city thinking it can handle an increasingly challenging future without government and economic reform. Ferguson proves this.

True statement.

roger wyoming II · PostJun 24, 2015#2282015-06-24T14:48+00:00

debaliviere wrote:
kbshapiro wrote:Forgot one thing. CORTEX should buy the site, clean it up, get it to the point of shovel-ready, then sell it off in 2-3-4 pieces to the right developments over time. The site is too big of a risk for one developer.
THIS.

Very interesting discussion here but first I want to re-iterate my comment that I believe Pace may be planning to proceed with the smaller footprint along Vandeventer... this parcel is separate from the Federal-Mogul site which Pace declined the option on and which looks like will need another developer(s). Thoughts?

(Also, it would be something if all the brownfields tax credits were eaten up by the stadium site and not available for something like this project.)

PostJun 24, 2015#2292015-06-24T15:12+00:00

kbshapiro wrote:There's already a lot of discussion amongst developers that all the new apartments being built in Clayton and CWE are too much supply. With a ton more on the way. The people moving into these apartments will be relocations from other parts of St Louis, not "net new" residents -- so its like a game of checkers. BTW -- I think one of the losers in this game of checkers will be downtown. This area provides for an urban-ish lifestyle but is closer to Clayton/CWE.-KBS

With all due respect, this is just an odd statement. The Central Corridor is attracting people from all over -- from other parts of the region, nation and world. It is an area that is growing in jobs, density and wealth and it has an extremely bright future. National retailers that are opening up within a mile or so of the Federal Mogul site include Kit and Ace, Jeni's, Whole Foods, Tim Horton's and IKEA. By the end of 2017, there will be more Metrolink, more Cortex, more Medical Center, more Grand Center, more university, more jobs and more residents.

If the timing isn't right for the execution of a solid site plan, then fine; we can wait. Certainly there will be a developer(s) who can do the job.

chaifetz10 · PostJun 24, 2015#2302015-06-24T16:28+00:00

And how much is those statements the developers trying to scare off each other? "Don't build down there! It's kcer built!" (So I can build something cheap in the future and make my money)

urban_dilettante · PostJun 24, 2015#2312015-06-24T17:40+00:00

kbshapiro wrote: The only way to get a way from a car centric mentality is for St Louis to hit an enormous population growth where the highways and major roads are a traffic nightmare which forces people to walk or ride public transportation to get food, services, daily needs because its more convenient than driving. Like NYC or Chicago. We are so far from this happening, its not even a possibility.

nah. no offense, but this is nonsense. there are numerous examples refuting that congestion is the only route to a pedestrian- and transit-friendly city. i live in Charlottesville, VA, for example—a small city with minimal congestion AND a pedestrian culture that far surpasses St. Louis'. people walk and bike here because C-ville proper is compact and walkable like many parts of St. Louis, and like Midtown could be with proper development.

kbshapiro · PostJun 24, 2015#2322015-06-24T19:34+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:
kbshapiro wrote:There's already a lot of discussion amongst developers that all the new apartments being built in Clayton and CWE are too much supply. With a ton more on the way. The people moving into these apartments will be relocations from other parts of St Louis, not "net new" residents -- so its like a game of checkers. BTW -- I think one of the losers in this game of checkers will be downtown. This area provides for an urban-ish lifestyle but is closer to Clayton/CWE.-KBS
With all due respect, this is just an odd statement. The Central Corridor is attracting people from all over -- from other parts of the region, nation and world. It is an area that is growing in jobs, density and wealth and it has an extremely bright future. National retailers that are opening up within a mile or so of the Federal Mogul site include Kit and Ace, Jeni's, Whole Foods, Tim Horton's and IKEA. By the end of 2017, there will be more Metrolink, more Cortex, more Medical Center, more Grand Center, more university, more jobs and more residents.

If the timing isn't right for the execution of a solid site plan, then fine; we can wait. Certainly there will be a developer(s) who can do the job.

What is odd?
A) I've been told by many people in the multi-family apartment development world that we may be tapped out on apartments for a while with the completed and under construction projects in the works from Clayton to Downtown.
B) St Louis isn't gaining population, so if any trade area increases in population, its because people left other parts of St Louis metro to move there.

PostJun 24, 2015#2332015-06-24T19:37+00:00

chaifetz10 wrote:And how much is those statements the developers trying to scare off each other? "Don't build down there! It's kcer built!" (So I can build something cheap in the future and make my money)

Could be the case but doubtful. We only do retail so no reason for a multifamily developer to lie to us. There's a sh*t ton of apartments coming on line in the next 2 years from Clayton to Downtown. Thousands of units. Doesn't seem like a far-fetched theory.

goat314 · PostJun 24, 2015#2342015-06-24T19:38+00:00

kbshapiro wrote:
roger wyoming II wrote:
kbshapiro wrote:There's already a lot of discussion amongst developers that all the new apartments being built in Clayton and CWE are too much supply. With a ton more on the way. The people moving into these apartments will be relocations from other parts of St Louis, not "net new" residents -- so its like a game of checkers. BTW -- I think one of the losers in this game of checkers will be downtown. This area provides for an urban-ish lifestyle but is closer to Clayton/CWE.-KBS
With all due respect, this is just an odd statement. The Central Corridor is attracting people from all over -- from other parts of the region, nation and world. It is an area that is growing in jobs, density and wealth and it has an extremely bright future. National retailers that are opening up within a mile or so of the Federal Mogul site include Kit and Ace, Jeni's, Whole Foods, Tim Horton's and IKEA. By the end of 2017, there will be more Metrolink, more Cortex, more Medical Center, more Grand Center, more university, more jobs and more residents.

If the timing isn't right for the execution of a solid site plan, then fine; we can wait. Certainly there will be a developer(s) who can do the job.

What is odd?
A) I've been told by many people in the multi-family apartment development world that we may be tapped out on apartments for a while with the completed and under construction projects in the works from Clayton to Downtown.
B) St Louis isn't gaining population, so if any trade area increases in population, its because people left other parts of St Louis metro to move there.

This is not entirely true....thousands leave St. Louis every year and thousands move here every year. The problem is that the net population growth is extremely low. With that said, you cannot make the assumption that many of these transplants want to live in a cul de sac in St. Charles. By the way, how do you account for the thousands of people that have moved to the central corridor in the few years? St. Louis isn't growing any slower.

kbshapiro · PostJun 24, 2015#2352015-06-24T19:39+00:00

urban_dilettante wrote:
kbshapiro wrote: The only way to get a way from a car centric mentality is for St Louis to hit an enormous population growth where the highways and major roads are a traffic nightmare which forces people to walk or ride public transportation to get food, services, daily needs because its more convenient than driving. Like NYC or Chicago. We are so far from this happening, its not even a possibility.
nah. no offense, but this is nonsense. there are numerous examples refuting that congestion is the only route to a pedestrian- and transit-friendly city. i live in Charlottesville, VA, for example—a small city with minimal congestion AND a pedestrian culture that far surpasses St. Louis'. people walk and bike here because C-ville proper is compact and walkable like many parts of St. Louis, and like Midtown could be with proper development.

Very good point. There are plenty of cities that don't have congestion and are not car-centric like St Louis. For whatever reason, St Louis is. Nobody can refute that.

PostJun 24, 2015#2362015-06-24T19:41+00:00

This is not entirely true....thousands leave St. Louis every year and thousands move here every year. The problem is that the net population growth is extremely low. With that said, you cannot make the assumption that many of these transplants want to live in a cul de sac in St. Charles.[/quote]

Good point. Same game of checkers. But you are right

arch city · PostJun 24, 2015#2372015-06-24T20:33+00:00

kbshapiro, and Dallas isn't car-centric? Although it's been a while, I lived in Dallas for a short time. Dallas's traffic is a nightmare from hell despite having miles and miles of light rail. Even now when I visit Dallas, it is hellacious driving around parts of the region. Dallas and Houston are very car-centric cities.

With that said, I only posted the renderings of "Dallas Midtown" to give a perspective of what could happen on the F-M site, but not on the same scale, of course. What in the hell does the population growth have to do with new urbanism or car-optional development/design on the F-M site?

But have you really thought about your assertions kbshapiro?

First of all, I would love to see information/data which suggests The Boulevard is failing or is not a success. Do you have it? As I see it, stores and concepts close and struggle all of the time regardless of the type of development they are located. Hell, stores and concepts have struggled and closed at Plaza Frontenac and the St. Louis Galleria - St. Louis' premium malls.

Perhaps a second P.F. Chang's in Chesterfield impacted sales at The Boulevard location. When the new PF Chang's in St. Charles opens, it likely will impact sales at Chesterfield's PFC. Perhaps Nadoz's concept wasn't sustainable ie. ran its course. Maybe the owner wants to do something different. And come on, Maggiano's is fine in Atlanta, but St. Louis is loaded with real Italian food - and I like Maggiano's. If the Maggiano's location is just at the "national average" as you assert, that could be one of the reasons. St. Louisans tend to like their hometown Italian restaurants. Carrabba's and Macaroni Grill closed fast in St. Louis.

And if your assertion about The Boulevard is accurate, perhaps it's because it needs more feeder businesses/residential nearby or because Pace needs to find a way to finish what they started. I just don't see how its struggles - IF that's the case - are any different from any other shopping center. Are the apartments not renting either?

I am not going to get into a protracted tedious debate, because frankly, I just don't have the time today. I might touch on some of your other comments later. But what I will say is that until the CAN'T DO, IT WON'T WORK, IT DOESN'T WORK, WOE ARE WE, WE DON'T GROW, TIP- TOEING RISK ADVERSE attitudes of St. Louisans change - St. Louis will continue to be mediocre. It won't grow in income or population. You call it being real, but I call such an attitude a DRAG on a region where people are often COMPLACENT and CONTENT with the STATUS QUO way of doing things. Where's the LET'S TRY IT, WE CAN DO IT, WE CAN DO IT BETTER attitude?

Desiring a car-optional/new urbanism project on the F-M site is a step in the right direction. Joe Roddy gets major points from me for this decision.

If Pace doesn't want the risk.....#Bye.

Let some other development company from Chicago, Dallas or Minneapolis come in and handle business.

urban_dilettante · PostJun 24, 2015#2382015-06-24T20:50+00:00

kbshapiro wrote:Very good point. There are plenty of cities that don't have congestion and are not car-centric like St Louis. For whatever reason, St Louis is. Nobody can refute that.

sure. not disagreeing that St. Louis is currently car-centric. the point that many here are trying to make is that it doesn't HAVE to be, and that it continues to be in large part due to bad design, bad policy, and bad leadership rather than providence.

arch city · PostJun 24, 2015#2392015-06-24T20:57+00:00

urban_dilettante wrote:sure. not disagreeing that St. Louis is currently car-centric. the point that many here are trying to make is that it doesn't HAVE to be, and that it continues to be in large part due to bad design, bad policy, and bad leadership rather than providence.

Very well put!

Joe Roddy apparently encouraged better design for a site that deserves it.

A car-optional/new urbanism design would add population density and a new mixture of offerings in the Central Corridor and along Forest Park Avenue. A walkable, car-optional development - done well - could drive more economic growth for the corridor and city.

If it is working on Euclid, it can work on the F-M site.

roger wyoming II · PostJun 24, 2015#2402015-06-24T21:14+00:00

kbshapiro wrote:
roger wyoming II wrote:
kbshapiro wrote:There's already a lot of discussion amongst developers that all the new apartments being built in Clayton and CWE are too much supply. With a ton more on the way. The people moving into these apartments will be relocations from other parts of St Louis, not "net new" residents -- so its like a game of checkers. BTW -- I think one of the losers in this game of checkers will be downtown. This area provides for an urban-ish lifestyle but is closer to Clayton/CWE.-KBS
With all due respect, this is just an odd statement. The Central Corridor is attracting people from all over -- from other parts of the region, nation and world. It is an area that is growing in jobs, density and wealth and it has an extremely bright future. National retailers that are opening up within a mile or so of the Federal Mogul site include Kit and Ace, Jeni's, Whole Foods, Tim Horton's and IKEA. By the end of 2017, there will be more Metrolink, more Cortex, more Medical Center, more Grand Center, more university, more jobs and more residents.

If the timing isn't right for the execution of a solid site plan, then fine; we can wait. Certainly there will be a developer(s) who can do the job.

What is odd?
A) I've been told by many people in the multi-family apartment development world that we may be tapped out on apartments for a while with the completed and under construction projects in the works from Clayton to Downtown.
B) St Louis isn't gaining population, so if any trade area increases in population, its because people left other parts of St Louis metro to move there.

Well, first, the region is growing (not as much as we'd like, but it isn't Cleveland or Pittsburgh where population is actually declining, and even that isn't stopping their central cores from exploding; society is changing and urbanism is back). Second. I wouldn't doubt the pace of new residential construction softens after some of these projects come online and lease up, but whichever way you slice and dice it thousands more people will be living in the Central Corridor in the coming years. They'll be coming from all over and in general they will have the highest degree of interest in bike/walk/transit in the region. You may not understand this shift, but it is occurring and we need to plan for this future.

DannyJ · PostJun 24, 2015#2412015-06-24T21:45+00:00

The thing is that the F-M site isn't on Euclid, it's pressed up against the highway and railroad tracks, not to mention being sandwiched into that position by the long super blocks around SLU's campus.

With its location, I just don't think the Federal Mogul site would be successful as a car-optional/new urbanist development at this time due to the land usage surrounding it.

arch city · PostJun 24, 2015#2422015-06-24T22:48+00:00

DannyJ wrote:The thing is that the F-M site isn't on Euclid, it's pressed up against the highway and railroad tracks, not to mention being sandwiched into that position by the long super blocks around SLU's campus.

I know the F-M site isn't on Euclid. The point was that with proper planning and design the F-M site could have the same level of vibrancy - if not very close.

DannyJ wrote:With its location, I just don't think the Federal Mogul site would be successful as a car-optional/new urbanist development at this time due to the land usage surrounding it.

Land and buildings can be acquired, if necessary, to make it more viable. Cortex did it. Look at it now.

In Atlanta, a similar Brownfields site (home to a former steel mill) has been redeveloped into the mixed-use, new-urban Atlantic Station and it's pressed up against an interstate. It includes residential, office, retail and restaurants.

This can be done on the F-M site, but perhaps not on the same scale.

Atlantic Station

roger wyoming II wrote:Second. I wouldn't doubt the pace of new residential construction softens after some of these projects come online and lease up, but whichever way you slice and dice it thousands more people will be living in the Central Corridor in the coming years. They'll be coming from all over and in general they will have the highest degree of interest in bike/walk/transit in the region. You may not understand this shift, but it is occurring and we need to plan for this future.

I agree 100%. And there are some concerns in other markets about looming gluts.

But I also would suggest the multi-family market isn't even close to glutting in St. Louis - even with new delivery coming.

About two years ago wasn't occupancy for the St. Louis MF market about 96%? There really hasn't been that many units planned or coming on line in metro St. Louis - despite what seems to be new numerous projects - to cause alarm.

And the argument some people have about tenants moving from one development to another is sketchy. Tenants moving from one development to another is common everywhere - not just St. Louis.

St. Louis has had an aging multi-family market. As I see it, if people want to move around for better deals, newer properties and more modern amenities - let them.

Like you, I can see a softening down the road, but there really aren't a whole lot of market-rate units going up in metro St. Louis like some people think. It is said that KC has 5,000 units planned or under construction in downtown KC alone.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there's that many in metro St. Louis.

dredger · PostJun 24, 2015#2432015-06-24T23:00+00:00

Kb, in all this discussion what gets me is a hotel hasn't been announced or incorporated into any of Pace renderings to date. I think the Vande site would be ideal and offer the opportunity to build upon a much better plan even if the F-M site option was dropped

Heck, you now got the Richmond Heights Crossing proposal that includes a hotel and even that site plan is still better than what Pace latest drive thru site plan is. I believe their has actually been three to four modest hotel proposals along I64 & I270 in the county in recent months.

Which gets back to Pace being being fixated on the numbers that it can support at the moment and what it knows or maybe it doesn't want to bring in a capital partner as they did for The Boulevards that got them phase one but nowhere from there. Pace is almost the opposite of Cordish/DeWitt for what it is worth. Instead of thinking big in this location they started with small ball and now are down to a bunt when as SLCoP is full steam ahead, SLU/SSM is going to be a big step forward and believe CORTEX/Wexford is thinking mores space not less for US Metals.

kbshapiro · PostJun 24, 2015#2442015-06-24T23:12+00:00

Hotel would be a great use there. I'm showing the F-M site (along with CORTEX and other parcels in the CWE area) on Sunday morning to a mixed use developer who loves to do hotels and apartments with first floor retail. I'm sure other brokers are doing the same.

PostJun 25, 2015#2452015-06-25T00:56+00:00

Arch and everyone else who disagrees with me -- we all want the same thing -- a bigger and better St Louis. We simply disagree on what we believe St Louis can support now and in the next 3 years on new development size, type, and design.

I hope you're right. These large mixed use developments will bring brokers like L3 a lot of space to lease and will result in a ton of construction and development related jobs for St Louis.

Time will tell if sites like Federal Mogul, BPV, land across from the Galleria, Tropicana Lanes, etc will result in dense, limited parking mixed use projects. If demand is there - they'll get developed as such.

Again, just as Ballpark Village should have been split into six - 1 square block parcels developed by 6 different developers, I think Federal Mogul should be bought by CORTEX or the City, cleaned up, shovel ready, zoned appropriately, then sold off in 2-3 pieces to the right developments over time. This would result in a creative, unique, collaborative and competitive overall development with the density everyone seems to desire.

KBS

urban_dilettante · PostJun 25, 2015#2462015-06-25T02:22+00:00

^ is Tropicana Lanes closing?

arch city · PostJun 25, 2015#2472015-06-25T03:02+00:00

Honestly, I really find it disconcerting how I tend to hear only St. Louisans placing limitations on growth and development.

It says a lot.

While respecting zoning laws, let developers develop. I am very familiar with Houston, Atlanta and Dallas. Those cities let developers develop. If there's trouble, the market will correct itself, just like it is doing in Atlanta.

I read an article which suggested it is time for St. Louis to build new office space because the office market is tightening. St. Louis' vacancy rate is 10.5%, while Atlanta's is 16.9% - yet Atlanta is building and St. Louis is not.

A new 154,000sf Class A office building proposed for Cobb County (Atlanta).

While it could exist, I never hear such limitations being placed on these cities by locals. When Houston went bust in the 80's, the whole attitude was "we can do it". Houston's bust, nonetheless, could have been a boom in St. Louis. Now Houston has a more diversified economy. It is no longer dependent on just energy and it is booming like crazy again. There was a "can do spirit".

In most cases, the cities mentioned help developers develop with incentives and generally there's not too much of an outcry from the public - at least not on level you find in St. Louis.

St. Louisans are their worst enemy.

-Naysayers said St. Louis wasn't capable of luring tech. Jim McKelvey, Dennis Lower, ed institutions and other city leaders begged to differ. Now look at Cortex and all of the nodes of IT, incubators and biotech throughout the region. Cortex is considered one of the best innovation districts in the country.

-I recall people asking, "How are all of these lofts and condos on Washington Avenue and downtown going to be absorbed". They didn't think there was a market, but they sold out - and in many cases before and during construction.

-People doubted Cherokee St, Soulard, Old North, The Grove. Too much crime. Now look at them.

-I remember the brouhaha over the Peabody's renovation. "St. Louis can't support 3500 more theater seats" the naysayers said, but it has and then some.

-"We have too many hotel rooms. We can't support all of those hotels downtown". Again, proven wrong. Renovations have been abundant.

-I recall people saying, "We're building too many retail shopping centers and strip malls". The bottom did not fall out of the earth because of it. Retail building is on the upswing again in St. Louis.

St. Louis has her issues, but this kind of talk is frustrating and irritating as hell.

With all of the naysayers and doubters, it's a wonder St. Louis has any development at all.

PostJun 25, 2015#2482015-06-25T03:32+00:00

I have another idea....................

Dear Joe Roddy and Park Central,

Please invite Atlanta-based The Jacoby Group to St. Louis to take a look at the Federal-Mogul site.

The Jacoby Group "is a land development company that specializes in environmentally sensitive multi-use properties and reclamation of impaired brownfields sites".

It has done successful projects such as Atlantic Station, which was built on a former steel mill site in Atlanta.

goat314 · PostJun 25, 2015#2492015-06-25T03:36+00:00

^ Thanks for the optimism Arch. I agree, I feel that St. Louis can often be its own worst enemy and its conservativeness of its investor class has definitely hurt the region. Imagine of all those old money trust fund babies would have invested in "start up" and "tech" back in the 60s, 70s, 80s. Imagine if we would have built a Metro system in the 70s, when Atlanta, San Francisco, and DC were similar sized peer regions. I'm sure St. Louis would be a different region today, its all about those inflection points.

arch city · PostJun 25, 2015#2502015-06-25T03:59+00:00

^I wish there was a "like" button I could select.

Thanks.

Midtown Station - Pace Retail Development

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