Midtown Station - Pace Retail Development

roger wyoming II · PostSep 03, 2015#2762015-09-03T22:14+00:00

^ But that's where the city steps in and says (politely) that it really isn't going to work out that way. Hopefully the city is smart enough to not approve re-zoning and wait for a more appropriate redevelopment while letting it be known subsidies are available to execute a better project.

But back to retailers, its just weird there doesn't seem to be more interest... I'd love to know who is interested and who may have taken a look at it but declined.

dredger · PostSep 04, 2015#2772015-09-04T00:49+00:00

^ Maybe CORTEX got a few more things lined up and doing a good job of keeping the lid tight. Who knows, maybe Geoff picked up something that wasn't supposed to be said. But that speculation was put down pretty quick and their was nothing to back it up. On the other hand, without the strong or sizeable retail anchor(s) it certainly explains the changes from their much bigger initial footprint/proposal. KB can explain it better then I ever will, but get a sense that a lot of retail comes down to x people in a given area earning y dollars for a given brand or store z.

As far as housing, or hotel, or mixed use. It would sure be interesting to hear what Pace would have to say on whether or not they pursued it, what bankers had to say on finance and if they did get any response or not, interest.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 05, 2015#2782015-09-05T18:14+00:00

^ I don't know what other retail Cortex may have up its sleeve, but apparently the Gerhardt Block is filling up nicely as presby reports 7 of the 10 retail spaces are leased... I look forward to seeing what will be coming,

As for the Midtown Station site, my initial expectations were that it would draw strong interest from chain sit-down restaurants and regional draws chasing the IKEA masses.... things like Red Robin and O'Charley's on the restaurant end and on the retail side something like REI (which already is here so not that but things at that level). And maybe a hotel. Things that would fit well both into the draw of IKEA as with the surrounding strong Midtown/CWE demographics.

The other thing that I can't help but wonder is what the clean-up costs are for the Federal Mogul site, which Pace seems to have decided to not pursue at this time.

dredger · PostSep 05, 2015#2792015-09-05T19:13+00:00

^ I wonder if GreenStreets would be the developer who should tackle Federal Mogul Site. They are just about to open their new business park on the old Coke site in South St. Louis that required extensive remediation and not afraid to tackle something with some density, or mix of uses like they are offering to do in FPSE/Grove at the commerce site as well as a developer who knows how the tax credits well, whether it be brownsfield, etc.
.
But I also wonder if this the Federal Mogul site does need some attention from the city in terms of dollars, brownfield tax credits and so forth to at least get the demo and site clean up underway. I can see where those issues did not pencil out for Pace and retail/box store development. One thing I do think is that the property needs to remain available for private development. SLU has plenty of space and turning more land over and taking it off future tax rolls doesn't make sense.

swebb · PostSep 05, 2015#2802015-09-05T20:47+00:00

Noticed a large excavating machine shovel parked on the parking lot between Laclede cab and 720 S. Vandeventer. This normally a precursor to something being built. This whole block would seem like a good spot for development right down the street IKEA and the Pace retail development. My question, is there something going on?

roger wyoming II · PostSep 06, 2015#2812015-09-06T00:13+00:00

^ I don't see any permit activity so I don't know what might be up.... however, I believe the place you are describing is now owned by the truck sales place across the street; perhaps it's just sitting there.

I think with some sound planning and savvy developers that whole stretch on Vandeventer from FPA on down to Manchester/Choteau (and really all the way down to 44) could be pretty cool. Or it could be horrid if the city allows anything goes.

PostSep 08, 2015#2822015-09-08T17:14+00:00

Presbyterian wrote:If there is a zoning change, the alderman can veto it. And in this case, there is a request for zoning change.

Interesting to see though that the site is already zoned unrestricted commercial which on the face of it would accommodate retail & restaurants... so I wonder if the zoning change request is because of the drive-thrus. `

PostSep 30, 2015#2832015-09-30T18:45+00:00

Those three old homes on FPA wedged in between Crescent Electric and the industrial site that Tim McGowan and his wife recently are going, going, gone! to demolition.... it'll be interesting to see what their plans are.

user28 · PostSep 30, 2015#2842015-09-30T19:24+00:00

I really wish theyd keep those three houses. Theyv got character that id hate to lose

dbInSouthCity · PostSep 30, 2015#2852015-09-30T19:46+00:00

^ its already lost.

dweebe · PostSep 30, 2015#2862015-09-30T20:12+00:00

user28 wrote:I really wish theyd keep those three houses. Theyv got character that id hate to lose

The brick harvesters are hard at work. 2 of the 3 buildings are down and they're starting on the last one.

roger wyoming II · PostSep 30, 2015#2872015-09-30T20:17+00:00

^ Those three small parcels on their own just don't seem to offer a lot of redevelopment opportunity... very curious what they are thinking and possibly if they intend to combine it with the adjacent Federal Mogul property. Having something like Metro Lofts with a variation of the Bread Co on the first floor and apartments up top would be something I'd like to see looked at. Trader Joe's on bottom and either apts. or hotel up top would work for me.

stlgasm · PostOct 16, 2015#2882015-10-16T21:09+00:00

In today's St. Louis Business Journal:

Pace raises $1.3 million for project next to Ikea

Link to article: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... 1445028465

If this gets built as shown, I might have to give up all hope of St. Louis ever getting a clue. The rendering is absolutely atrocious and straight outta St. Peters. It's time for St. Louis to grow some balls and demand minimum urban design standards for new developments such as this. Any self-respecting city would flat out reject this design. How desperate are we???

dweebe · PostOct 16, 2015#2892015-10-16T21:18+00:00

stlgasm wrote:In today's St. Louis Business Journal:

Pace raises $1.3 million for project next to Ikea

Link to article: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... 1445028465

If this gets built as shown, I might have to give up all hope of St. Louis ever getting a clue. The rendering is absolutely atrocious and straight outta St. Peters. It's time for St. Louis to grow some balls and demand minimum urban design standards for new developments such as this. Any self-respecting city would flat out reject this design. How desperate are we???

I don't know how many times I can say NO to this proposal. What a piece of sh*t. Go away Pace.

Northside Neighbor · PostOct 16, 2015#2902015-10-16T21:20+00:00

Or cause for celebration?

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... ml?ana=twt

I say let's celebrate!

wabash · PostOct 17, 2015#2912015-10-17T01:49+00:00

Go for it! But there's no reason for an urbanist to celebrate that site plan.

urban_dilettante · PostOct 17, 2015#2922015-10-17T02:49+00:00

yeah, why wouldn't we celebrate more of the type of development that's turned St. Louis into a pedestrian-less wasteland?

i sure hope it includes a QT!

dweebe · PostOct 17, 2015#2932015-10-17T03:05+00:00

Already extensively covered in another thread.

http://urbanstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... &start=285

Northside Neighbor · PostOct 17, 2015#2942015-10-17T12:45+00:00

(Sorry about starting the other thread on the Pace project. I didn't even know about the plan until seeing the story this week. Remove the redundant thread or combine it here if that's the right thing to do. )

But my suspicion is true: apparently urbanists hate the plan. Not me.

The same tired narrative comes from "urbanists" (and I'm beginning to wonder what that term - "urbanists" - really means...): "When will the city get a clue"; "I might as well live in St. Charles"; "The city needs to demand better". Blah, blah, blah.

Well, you know what? The city does have a clue; this is nothing like St. Charles; and this is a faaaar sight better than the eyesore that has occupied the site for the past 20 years.

The new development will serve residents in the CWE and FPSE neighborhoods and beyond. Those neighborhoods are as urban as any in the city and will remain so. You'll never see a CWE or FPSE in St. Charles, so enough of the hyperbole that STL might as well be St. Charles.

Providing desired services within the city is a win. People have been clamoring for a City Target for a long time. Now it might happen.

I predict this development will support continued population growth in the CWE and FPSE neighborhoods. And that population growth means more historic buildings saved and more new construction.

cteclipse · PostOct 17, 2015#2952015-10-17T13:40+00:00

I agree Northside Neighbor. People can and will battle over any design and it can stagnate progress (see Buffalo NY where they've been arguing over a bridge design since 1990). There seems to be a fight over who's more "urban" than others by condemning any proposal - the same is true with music lovers, car gurus etc. While it may not be a perfect plan there could certainly be worse options, such as doing NOTHING. If you believe you could do a better job I'd recommend getting on an advisory committee or employed with PACE as an architect/designer.

True_dope · PostOct 17, 2015#2962015-10-17T14:06+00:00

Looks like one of the buildings on the site would front the street.

wabash · PostOct 17, 2015#2972015-10-17T14:15+00:00

It look like it would have its back fronting the street - with no entrance facing Vandeventer.

roger wyoming II · PostOct 17, 2015#2982015-10-17T14:21+00:00

NN,
Yes, being able to provide more services is good for the City but this isn't an area where you might have to give in on insisting on strong design. This may have been something I reluctantly would have supported before the area had begun to realize its potential like it has the past few years. But this isn't 2010 when we're still in recession and you'd be laughed at if someone told you that within 5 years there'd be over a thousand new apartments built in the area, Cortex is a real thing bringing hundreds of jobs, and IKEA would be open and running across the street. This is a key site in a high-demand area and it's important to make sure that any development provides significant long-term value for the City... I think that is highly questionable here.

Here is the most recent image, btw, it's a more detailed site plan than the one last posted:

We'll have to see what tenants Pace may have in mind, but it appears the two smaller ones are restaurants with drive-thru, which leaves only the 12,000 sq. ft. building as something that may add real value to neighborhood. (I believe that size is too small for Target's smaller stores, which are no longer called City or Express, but may be suitable for something like a Trader Joe's.)

I'll also add that aesthetically I'm not sure how much value this would add over the non-descript warehouse building there now.

wabash · PostOct 17, 2015#2992015-10-17T14:29+00:00

It look like it would have its back fronting the street - with no entrance facing Vandeventer.

Northside Neighbor · PostOct 17, 2015#3002015-10-17T14:50+00:00

I'll also add that aesthetically I'm not sure how much value this would add over the non-descript warehouse building there now.

I'm sorry but these sorts of comments just feel like tilting at so many windmills.

The fact of the matter is had the growth now happening in the Central Corridor not happened, then this project would never be done.

I guess one possible definition of an urbanist might be "one who continually moves back the goal posts of urban design and loves to set unattainable demands on would be developers today."

Look at it another way...

With the IKEA across the street, and the thousands of visitors it draws every day, what do you think the chances are that some of those shoppers will venture across the street and patronize the businesses in Pace's center? I'd say pretty high, and I'm betting more than half of those shoppers are new city shoppers.

I'll take it.

Midtown Station - Pace Retail Development

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