+1chaifetz10 wrote:^Correct. But a user who has been here for years and has delivered reliable information in the past on numerous occasions as well. I still view him as a reliable source for inside information.
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Yeah, you guys are right, it is the "Internets" after all. where rumor, gossip, innuendo finds a safe haven...
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I don't think that's true.sirshankalot wrote:Yeah, you guys are right, it is the "Internets" after all. where rumor, gossip, innuendo finds a safe haven...
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It would be great if someone could put this idea in Dierberg's head. I'd love to see another one of their urban locations around here, and hey -- it would be their first city location!
Whelp, that took the wind out of my sails.ward17 wrote:A constituent emailed a link to this discussion asking about this project. I’m reluctant to post here for several reasons but mostly because some time ago I was emailed a link to an outrageous and sensational report that Alex Ihnen made about Oakland and Kingshighway on Nextstl. When I posted to refute it and try to stop unfounded rumors my post was deleted within minutes.
I was shocked to think that someone portraying themselves as a “quasi” journalist would delete a response from a policy maker making an “on the record” comment.
I’m not sure what Alex’s motivation was but since I noticed that Urbanstl is now separate from Nextstl, and in the hopes that they welcome free speech and the open exchange of ideas and will not edit or delete “on the record” comments from policy makers I thought I might try to shed some light on this project..
It is not my policy to comment on non public developments, but since Pace posted on their website I feel ok to share the following:
1. This is very far from being a real deal!...
Joe Roddy
Alderman 17th Ward
So nothing is coming and if it is we're faaaar away from it. But for now we should stop talking and be happy about it.
Economics Teacher: Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?sirshankalot wrote:Yeah, you guys are right, it is the "Internets" after all. where rumor, gossip, innuendo finds a safe haven...
Simone: Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.
Economics Teacher: Thank you, Simone.
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Of course this project isn't a done deal. Both NextStl and the forum have reported that Pace is planning and marketing the project, including links to the promotional materials on Pace's website. That's breaking a story -- something these sites do often.
What makes me optimistic that Pace will find interested tenants is that Pace is also representing a large Swedish not-for-profit foundation that hopes to sell some furniture and lunches across the street. I'd love to hear Pace's sales pitch when they tell prospective tenants about that.
What makes me optimistic that Pace will find interested tenants is that Pace is also representing a large Swedish not-for-profit foundation that hopes to sell some furniture and lunches across the street. I'd love to hear Pace's sales pitch when they tell prospective tenants about that.
I agree 100% with your comment.Alex Ihnen wrote:Nothing is a done deal until it's actually being built. The Midtown Station story, and IKEA, and all other development news details what's being planned. I think it's rather simple. At some point, a contract will be signed and an official announcement made (or not). That's when it's a done deal.
I'd like to add that for those of us that have been around these urban and civic development boards for any significant length of time, we know that no project proposal or rumor is final until the project is rising out of the ground - ESPECIALLY in St. Louis. Remember Libeskind's Bottle District? It's still a vacant lot. What a big let down.
Still, I think it is always good to see new proposals and discuss their potential impact on the city and region. I also like the buzz these rumors create and often times I am hopeful the rumors will manifest into something tangible - if not, then we'll just have to wait until the next big proposal.
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Well, to each their own...i prefer not to live in a world of rumor then temporary erection with the buzz it provides...but maybe, at 40 years-old I'm just old and more pragmatic.
And boring.....no fun....yawn.....sirshankalot wrote:Well, to each their own...i prefer not to live in a world of rumor then temporary erection with the buzz it provides...but maybe, at 40 years-old I'm just old and more pragmatic.
A ton of developments--including the above-mentioned Bottle District tower; the Skyhouse development on Washington; and earlier, denser iterations of Ballpark Village--were all rolled out in mainstream media with no real discussion as to their likelihood of occurring as planned.
If you read any of those Post-Dispatch / Business Journal articles at the time of announcement, they'd all read something like, "(Insert Developer Here) hopes to close on financing soon. The project is expected to be completed in (Insert "early" or "late" season / year here)."
In short, sh*t happens -- as in the case of the mid 2000s Opus proposal for the NE corner of Lindell and Taylor, sometimes it's NIMBYs. Sometimes it's market conditions. Sometimes, the project was never that serious to begin with, but the developer wanted to use the media to drum up support. Whatever the case may be, nothing is final until the dirt is being moved and the steel beams go in place.
So why blame the messenger who has legitimate information on a *proposed* development and does nothing but report what anyone "in-the-know" already knows?
Isn't that the point of this forum, and of nextSTL? To discuss the changes to our cityscape, both past, present, and proposed? I am puzzled by some of the earlier comments calling developments like Midtown Station (which is STILL at the time of this writing the Project Spotlight on PACE's homepage) "rumors". Just because you want said development to be finalized, and it's not yet, doesn't mean it's not fair game for reporting / commenting on plans.
If you read any of those Post-Dispatch / Business Journal articles at the time of announcement, they'd all read something like, "(Insert Developer Here) hopes to close on financing soon. The project is expected to be completed in (Insert "early" or "late" season / year here)."
In short, sh*t happens -- as in the case of the mid 2000s Opus proposal for the NE corner of Lindell and Taylor, sometimes it's NIMBYs. Sometimes it's market conditions. Sometimes, the project was never that serious to begin with, but the developer wanted to use the media to drum up support. Whatever the case may be, nothing is final until the dirt is being moved and the steel beams go in place.
So why blame the messenger who has legitimate information on a *proposed* development and does nothing but report what anyone "in-the-know" already knows?
Isn't that the point of this forum, and of nextSTL? To discuss the changes to our cityscape, both past, present, and proposed? I am puzzled by some of the earlier comments calling developments like Midtown Station (which is STILL at the time of this writing the Project Spotlight on PACE's homepage) "rumors". Just because you want said development to be finalized, and it's not yet, doesn't mean it's not fair game for reporting / commenting on plans.
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or weirdly over-sensitive about things that other people take in stride? actually, at 40 i'm surprised you CAN still get an erection!sirshankalot wrote:...but maybe, at 40 years-old I'm just old and more pragmatic.
Nail on the head...and it's not just a problem in St. Louis. Sites like NextSTL have grown support in many other cities for this very reason, and we are lucky to have it. If anything, the number of members here should be encouraging to any politician, knowing that so many people care enough about their neighborhoods to want to know and influence what happens NEXT (see what I did there?)Alex Ihnen wrote:...there's enormous value to the community and residents to be aware of what might be coming. Once official announcements are made and plans approved by the city, there's virtually zero chance for residents to have any influence.
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In his defense I read the councilmans message to say its not a done deal to mean that there was still a lot of room to change/improve on the aspects of the site plan. He mentioned density and structured parking, I wish he had metioned residential/mixed use as well.
Of course I also got a little 'shut up you kids these are very complex issues, I got this.' from his post too so that was a little patronizing.
With Alex on this one, the time to influence the process is before the contracts are signed so in that respect unsubstantiated rumors are MORE useful to this forum than factual reporting about whats breaking ground tommorrow. I think the mistake people make is reading the forum as if its news. The forum and blog are about editorializing and advocacy not simply reporting facts.
Of course I also got a little 'shut up you kids these are very complex issues, I got this.' from his post too so that was a little patronizing.
With Alex on this one, the time to influence the process is before the contracts are signed so in that respect unsubstantiated rumors are MORE useful to this forum than factual reporting about whats breaking ground tommorrow. I think the mistake people make is reading the forum as if its news. The forum and blog are about editorializing and advocacy not simply reporting facts.
Dmmonty1, I noticed you and Alex had an exchange about this on the Pevely thread. I'll post a reply there for you.dmmonty1 wrote:While we have you here Alderman Roddy, can you please tell us when SLU is going to be cleaning up the mess they made of the Peveley site? It's a disgrace!
Alex—if you didn’t delete my post I apologize—when you previously contacted me you led me to believe it was your blog.Alex Ihnen wrote:I ask that you apologize.
So that the readers can fully understand the issue--this is what you editorialized:
“The development on Chouteau would require the demolition of the aging St. Louis College of Health Careers building and the entire north side of the 4500 block for what appears to be low-rise offices surrounding by parking. In all, the vision would require the demolition of more than 125 housing units. And all of this within a housing conservation district, a ward with preservation review and a National Register FPSE Historic District. It should go without saying that the loss of this number of housing units, and to suburban-style development, is unacceptable for the city and The Grove neighborhood.”
My post that disappeared said that said in effect that this would never happen and you were irresponsible for writing about it.
Forget any caveats in the story, some people will actually believe that nonsense. For the last 2 years I and leaders of FPSE have been trying to raise a $100,000 for the creation of the city’s second form based plan, with a goal of developing a shared vision for a dense, car optional neighborhood. When we begin public engagement, the question is-- will someone pull from this fantasy to characterize the planning process as a pretense to take their homes and demolish half the neighborhood? What if main stream media picked up your story? The neighborhood was already divided by a proposal by the Drury’s to develop a hotel that could require the demolition of handful of houses.
I have had the unenviable position of being at the center of many controversial demolitions. It’s difficult enough when the story is true, in this case the story was manufactured by you. With that, I expect that there will be more selective demolition in FPSE but nothing nearly on this scale. I expect that when/if the Drury’s propose it will be worthy of consideration, the one you wrote about will never be considered. I posted as much and my post went missing. Yet, rumors like your post could derail any rational conversation about the Drury hotel or even the launch of the form based plan.
Prior to my posting being pulled, I’ve made myself available to answer your questions—either by email, by phone or even in person over a drink after work—yet you published an article about demolishing over 100 homes in my ward--many owner occupied, and to my knowledge you asked no one who might actually know what is going on, or could do anything about it. I’m trying to figure out how you could so casually write a story like that—is there a motive or were you just that naïve?
I founded Park Central and continue to raise money for it, in part, to provide residents and stakeholders more say about the developments in their neighborhoods. Almost all development projects that occur within the 17th ward are reviewed by committees of neighborhood residents and stakeholders long before I take any action. Park Central staff spends many thousands of dollars every year on public engagement, organizing committee meetings, maintaining a website and facebook page, and publishing newsletters. You know this since you once participated in the process. Many of the committee members work in relevant fields and know their neighborhood well. They have the ability to interact with the developers and have access to as all the relevant information. You know many of them and have access to them, yet so many of your posts about projects in the 17th ward lack critical information, or are just wrong and debase the hard work of people who volunteer their time and effort to make these neighborhood better.
Roddy
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Commentary: Building The City That We DeserveMichael Allen wrote:Midtown Station’s premise – new retail in the city – is a good one. Yet its form and design are lackluster and inappropriate. Great cities are made of great new layers, not great old layers and newer mediocrity. And St. Louis is a great city.
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^^
Joe,
I'm sorry if the post caused headaches or problems for you. The whole point of it was and is that developers pitch plans for neighborhoods all the time - big plans, plans that would require demolition. We all need to be aware of this and loudly say no as early in the process as possible. What was irresponsible was the developer paying for renderings of new buildings in place of homes he didn't own and then shopping that vision for FPSE to others. Does awareness of such ideas cause problems? Maybe, but I simply believe it's vastly more important that as many people as possible be aware of what developers are planning/dreaming.
And you should really be mad at Michael Allen anyway
. I find myself in the odd position of defending Midtown Station against his critique. :/
Alex
Joe,
I'm sorry if the post caused headaches or problems for you. The whole point of it was and is that developers pitch plans for neighborhoods all the time - big plans, plans that would require demolition. We all need to be aware of this and loudly say no as early in the process as possible. What was irresponsible was the developer paying for renderings of new buildings in place of homes he didn't own and then shopping that vision for FPSE to others. Does awareness of such ideas cause problems? Maybe, but I simply believe it's vastly more important that as many people as possible be aware of what developers are planning/dreaming.
And you should really be mad at Michael Allen anyway
. I find myself in the odd position of defending Midtown Station against his critique. :/Alex
Not sure what happened with the post you wrote, Alderman Roddy (I'm not one of the site administrators).
I DO know there is occasion where, when writing a post on this forum -- especially long ones -- when you hit submit, sometimes it doesn't work. And when that happens, you usually have to log back in. This has happened almost exclusively on Macs for me.
A good rule of thumb is to copy your post before submitting it, so that if the system drops it for some reason, you can log back in, paste it in and re-submit. I know this is frustrating -- especially when you spend time (more time than we probably should!) on a post, only to lose what you wrote.
Glad to have another representative of our City engaging the forum. Hopefully you'll be able to offer more of your thoughts, opinions and personal insight into the City process...not just in the 17th Ward, but for the City as a whole.
I DO know there is occasion where, when writing a post on this forum -- especially long ones -- when you hit submit, sometimes it doesn't work. And when that happens, you usually have to log back in. This has happened almost exclusively on Macs for me.
A good rule of thumb is to copy your post before submitting it, so that if the system drops it for some reason, you can log back in, paste it in and re-submit. I know this is frustrating -- especially when you spend time (more time than we probably should!) on a post, only to lose what you wrote.
Glad to have another representative of our City engaging the forum. Hopefully you'll be able to offer more of your thoughts, opinions and personal insight into the City process...not just in the 17th Ward, but for the City as a whole.
This forum was once part of nextSTL but it is now separate. I run it, and it is administrated loosely to promote openness among one another. In essence, administrators are just present to maintain civil dialogue that generally pertains to the site's mission. I posted a similar notice on the Pevely thread in giving a warning, but EVERYONE should feel comfortable to participate and share their perspectives. This means that personal attacks against one another will not be tolerated.ward17 wrote:Alex—if you didn’t delete my post I apologize—when you previously contacted me you led me to believe it was your blog.
Roddy
Alderman Roddy, if you can tell me about when this post was made, I can check the moderator log. But honestly, I doubt it was deleted. More likely, it was some kind of a rare hiccup (this can happen when writing a long post which means your session could have ended).
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Off-topic, but very cool to hear that the Drury Hotel proposal for FPSE might not be dead. Am I reading that right Joe? I attended the first meeting on the proposal and spoke in favor of the project. Hopefully we'll see it built. Now over to the Drury FPSE thread...
Ok, I think this is the point where I say I’ll behave and maybe over reacted. It’s just that you haven’t lived until you hosted a meeting where everyone thinks you’re going to tear down their homes. The torches and pitchforks really come out. You combine that with a couple emails from people with a full head of steam caused by something they read here—you get the idea.
I don’t know what happened with the “the post in question”. It was on the Nextstl. I don’t post often and am so inept that I check my work by leaving the page and coming back. In any event…
Alex—the Drury’s think like institutions—very long term. I last spoke to them several months ago. At that time I told them I thought it best to plan for that intersection in the context of the form based plan. The planning department didn’t want us to proceed the plan until the CWE one was codified. When we finally got the go ahead some of the funding got pulled with the changes in block grant. Our resident/stakeholder committee had already selected a consultant. I’m working with Brian Phillips at WUMCRC, Brooks at Park Central, and Jill at CDA on a work around.
I don’t know what happened with the “the post in question”. It was on the Nextstl. I don’t post often and am so inept that I check my work by leaving the page and coming back. In any event…
Alex—the Drury’s think like institutions—very long term. I last spoke to them several months ago. At that time I told them I thought it best to plan for that intersection in the context of the form based plan. The planning department didn’t want us to proceed the plan until the CWE one was codified. When we finally got the go ahead some of the funding got pulled with the changes in block grant. Our resident/stakeholder committee had already selected a consultant. I’m working with Brian Phillips at WUMCRC, Brooks at Park Central, and Jill at CDA on a work around.
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^Sometimes I wish I had a torch and a pitchfork just for the purposes of showing up to neighborhood meetings. Instead, I'm usually the guy nodding off in the back. Oh well.
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By the way, the form-based code (and hopefully its spread across the city) is absolutely, certifiably brilliant! I've featured it a couple times and tried to diffuse some misunderstandings some have of the process, code and outcome. Thank you for pushing for this. It looks like the Loop/Skinker-DeBaliviere area may adopt something similar. Now, how do we get it along the city's major corridors? Gravois? Natural Bridge? Jefferson? Those span several wards, making the larger effort much more difficult.ward17 wrote:Alex—the Drury’s think like institutions—very long term. I last spoke to them several months ago. At that time I told them I thought it best to plan for that intersection in the context of the form based plan. The planning department didn’t want us to proceed the plan until the CWE one was codified. When we finally got the go ahead some of the funding got pulled with the changes in block grant. Our resident/stakeholder committee had already selected a consultant. I’m working with Brian Phillips at WUMCRC, Brooks at Park Central, and Jill at CDA on a work around.