I feel the same way about Manhattan. It's lost a lot more people than St. Louis and it's hard to see them all coming back in the next 50 years.KansasCitian wrote: ↑Jan 04, 2022I'm in my early thirties and I'm resigned to the fact that if I ever do see a St. Louis that has fully corrected its erroneous past, I will be an old man unable to fully partake in its rejuvenation - or, more likely, already dead.
Change can come faster than we think. Look at how fast Nashville and Austin have boomed. We have some positive momentum right now, if we can develop a master plan for downtown and get some more big wins; dominoes will fall and things will start to exponentially improve.
"There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen"
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"There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen"
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Downtown has a master plan. And it’s a pretty good one. Just need to implement the plan.CG91 wrote:Change can come faster than we think. Look at how fast Nashville and Austin have boomed. We have some positive momentum right now, if we can develop a master plan for downtown and get some more big wins; dominoes will fall and things will start to exponentially improve.
"There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen"
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https://issuu.com/interfacestudio/docs/ ... wn_stl_web
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Both are state capitals.CG91 wrote: ↑Jan 04, 2022Change can come faster than we think. Look at how fast Nashville and Austin have boomed. We have some positive momentum right now, if we can develop a master plan for downtown and get some more big wins; dominoes will fall and things will start to exponentially improve.
"There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen"
St. Louis is never going to boom while the rest of the state is actively trying to destroy it.
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It's true that change can come pretty fast.
As a high school student in the mid-aughts, I used to drive down to downtown Kansas City pretty often and bike the roads at night. If you know anything about Kansas City, it kind of slopes down to the Missouri River, so there were streets in which you could fly downhill at what felt like pretty tremendous speeds.
I hardly ever thought about cars on perpendicular streets - and from what I can remember, there were no close calls. Downtown was truly desolate, a complete dump. I can remember how quiet and dark Main Street was, how the P&L movie theater and countless other buildings in the area were boarded up.
Now, many people would tell you downtown Kansas City is pretty nice, just fifteen years later.
I personally believe that St. Louis' downtown has a ton more potential than Kansas City's, but that's not a discussion that I want to have in this thread. The point is that I've seen significant change as a young adult and it'd be nice if we could see the same here in St. Louis before I'm too old to ride a bike.
It's just.... there are without a doubt things here in St. Louis that I believe will be the exact same a few decades from now, no matter how much you want to wish them away. The IKEA parking lot in Midtown comes to mind for that.
As a high school student in the mid-aughts, I used to drive down to downtown Kansas City pretty often and bike the roads at night. If you know anything about Kansas City, it kind of slopes down to the Missouri River, so there were streets in which you could fly downhill at what felt like pretty tremendous speeds.
I hardly ever thought about cars on perpendicular streets - and from what I can remember, there were no close calls. Downtown was truly desolate, a complete dump. I can remember how quiet and dark Main Street was, how the P&L movie theater and countless other buildings in the area were boarded up.
Now, many people would tell you downtown Kansas City is pretty nice, just fifteen years later.
I personally believe that St. Louis' downtown has a ton more potential than Kansas City's, but that's not a discussion that I want to have in this thread. The point is that I've seen significant change as a young adult and it'd be nice if we could see the same here in St. Louis before I'm too old to ride a bike.
It's just.... there are without a doubt things here in St. Louis that I believe will be the exact same a few decades from now, no matter how much you want to wish them away. The IKEA parking lot in Midtown comes to mind for that.
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This thread this like a deja vu on a monthly repeat. People who don’t go to downtown complain there is nothing to do Downtown and people who go downtown list 101 things to do in downtown
Couldn’t agree more. I’m not here to argue an opinion one way or the other…but this thread is basically the same argument on repeat…constantly.UrbanPlanner2022 wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2022This thread this like a deja vu on a monthly repeat. People who don’t go to downtown complain there is nothing to do Downtown and people who go downtown list 101 things to do in downtown
I agree the conversation on this thread repeats often but it’s disingenuous to say that only people who don’t go downtown complain about it. At least one person who lives in downtown west critiques downtown on this forum, and I don’t post often but I go downtown semi-often and still wish there could be more there. It’s just a difference of opinion at the end of the day.
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Downtown has all the pieces we just need the right leaders who are willing to lead and encourage development not spook it away & beyond jobs but for residents and not get too cocky about being stingy with incentives cause either way St.Louis will not see much development with out them. It’s time we have a downtown that’s not depended on conventions and sporting events. I think residential is the way to go continued rehabs and new construction and getting rid of old derelict ugly garages replacing them with residential. I’m tired of the same ole St.Louis leadership shenanigans all bark but no bite.
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I have faith in Tishaura, certainly more faith than I had in previous leaders in St. Louis. The real test will be how they use the infrastructure bill money and the Rams lawsuit money. That money certainly should be a game changer for St. Louis if used correctly
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I think STL was from 2016-2019 on the right path! This new admin took the incentives out and STL is not there yet! I bet any money if the incentives were left alone by 2027 we could have dictated investors how the game was played. But they pulled the incentives way to soon and STL is not Austin or Grand Rapids! Even Downtown Detroit is booming with their incentives! Detroit doesn’t even look like the Detroit from 10 years ago! Looks like a reborn city.
I own in DTW don’t rent but owned and I probably spend maybe one weekend a month DT as there’s not much to do. 99% of the time I ride the train to CWE or take an Uber to The Grove.
This admin forgets that investors have better cities and way too good of incentives in the region and investors are here to make money not play political agendas.
Region has Nashville, Indy, KC, Cincinnati, Columbus, Milwaukee, and other mid size cities trying to get the same investors in. STL in my opinion is the best one location wise and its location is basically the heart of all these cities in the midwest but without incentives, population growth, and real infrastructure investments (Expansion of LR and/or BRT and Protected bike lanes) they will continue to skip the Lou!
And yes conversations here repeat themselves but the reason it does is that nothing gets done and you have people here that want to enjoy a reborn DT at an age that we can still ride the bikes or walk to the Arch!
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I own in DTW don’t rent but owned and I probably spend maybe one weekend a month DT as there’s not much to do. 99% of the time I ride the train to CWE or take an Uber to The Grove.
This admin forgets that investors have better cities and way too good of incentives in the region and investors are here to make money not play political agendas.
Region has Nashville, Indy, KC, Cincinnati, Columbus, Milwaukee, and other mid size cities trying to get the same investors in. STL in my opinion is the best one location wise and its location is basically the heart of all these cities in the midwest but without incentives, population growth, and real infrastructure investments (Expansion of LR and/or BRT and Protected bike lanes) they will continue to skip the Lou!
And yes conversations here repeat themselves but the reason it does is that nothing gets done and you have people here that want to enjoy a reborn DT at an age that we can still ride the bikes or walk to the Arch!
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Pulled incentives? Which ones have they pulled?JJ Taino wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2022I think STL was from 2016-2019 on the right path! This new admin took the incentives out and STL is not there yet! I bet any money if the incentives were left alone by 2027 we could have dictated investors how the game was played. But they pulled the incentives way to soon and STL is not Austin or Grand Rapids! Even Downtown Detroit is booming with their incentives! Detroit doesn’t even look like the Detroit from 10 years ago! Looks like a reborn city.
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They changed the incentives program. Ex. City Foundry. I heard 1014 Spruce and 1801 Wash haven’t moved forward because city wanted to changed (renegotiate)what was already approved. Investors don’t see that as a good sign!UrbanPlanner2022 wrote:Pulled incentives? Which ones have they pulled?JJ Taino wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2022I think STL was from 2016-2019 on the right path! This new admin took the incentives out and STL is not there yet! I bet any money if the incentives were left alone by 2027 we could have dictated investors how the game was played. But they pulled the incentives way to soon and STL is not Austin or Grand Rapids! Even Downtown Detroit is booming with their incentives! Detroit doesn’t even look like the Detroit from 10 years ago! Looks like a reborn city.
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Where did you hear about that 1014 and 1801? That sounds entirely false from what I know. Even 1014 dropped their incentive request to 40% for 10 years. There's been no "called back to the table" on 1801 as far as I'm aware of. If there was, I would've heard/been told about it.JJ Taino wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2022They changed the incentives program. Ex. City Foundry. I heard 1014 Spruce and 1801 Wash haven’t moved forward because city wanted to changed (renegotiate)what was already approved. Investors don’t see that as a good sign!UrbanPlanner2022 wrote:Pulled incentives? Which ones have they pulled?JJ Taino wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2022I think STL was from 2016-2019 on the right path! This new admin took the incentives out and STL is not there yet! I bet any money if the incentives were left alone by 2027 we could have dictated investors how the game was played. But they pulled the incentives way to soon and STL is not Austin or Grand Rapids! Even Downtown Detroit is booming with their incentives! Detroit doesn’t even look like the Detroit from 10 years ago! Looks like a reborn city.
Chris that’s what they told me. Hopefully is false but there were a few people and they sounded confident lol…chriss752 wrote:Where did you hear about that 1014 and 1801? That sounds entirely false from what I know. Even 1014 dropped their incentive request to 40% for 10 years. There's been no "called back to the table" on 1801 as far as I'm aware of. If there was, I would've heard/been told about it.JJ Taino wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2022They changed the incentives program. Ex. City Foundry. I heard 1014 Spruce and 1801 Wash haven’t moved forward because city wanted to changed (renegotiate)what was already approved. Investors don’t see that as a good sign!UrbanPlanner2022 wrote: Pulled incentives? Which ones have they pulled?
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I don’t know who “they” is but no existing Downtown project that had incentives had them “pulled” none whatsoever.
As I see it, of these five relatively discrete districts of "Downtown" it's really just the CBD/OPOP/Wash Ave that seems to cause the most havoc and garner the most negative attention. The others - DTW, Civic Center, South of Market, and Laclede's Landing - seem to be moving in the right direction at varying rates, with DTW and South of Market seeing more momentum and Laclede's Landing and Civic Center more stagnant.
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Perhaps someday S4th/Chouteau's Landing can be added to this patchwork, but it's not there yet.
Perhaps someday S4th/Chouteau's Landing can be added to this patchwork, but it's not there yet.
Outside of the old Civil Courts building and Parkside Plaza building: what can be done in Civic Center?wabash wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2022As I see it, of these five relatively discrete districts of "Downtown" it's really just the CBD/OPOP/Wash Ave that seems to cause the most havoc and garner the most negative attention. The others - DTW, Civic Center, South of Market, and Laclede's Landing - seem to be moving in the right direction at varying rates, with DTW and South of Market seeing more momentum and Laclede's Landing and Civic Center more stagnant.
Perhaps someday S4th/Chouteau's Landing can be added to this patchwork, but it's not there yet.
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Infill surface lots, renovate old police HQ, build over Metrolink ROW, and fill Gateway Mall parks with amenities
I’ve always thought 13th street from Chouteau to Washington would be a great car-free corridor or “Civic Center Mall”dweebe wrote:Outside of the old Civil Courts building and Parkside Plaza building: what can be done in Civic Center?wabash wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2022As I see it, of these five relatively discrete districts of "Downtown" it's really just the CBD/OPOP/Wash Ave that seems to cause the most havoc and garner the most negative attention. The others - DTW, Civic Center, South of Market, and Laclede's Landing - seem to be moving in the right direction at varying rates, with DTW and South of Market seeing more momentum and Laclede's Landing and Civic Center more stagnant.
Perhaps someday S4th/Chouteau's Landing can be added to this patchwork, but it's not there yet.
Start at Chouteau. Pedestrian bridge over tracks. Pedestrian crossing at Clark. New “Civic Plaza” between Clark and Market. Pedestrian crossing at Market. Elevated car-free 13th from Market to Washington with direct access to Museum district and Wash Ave retail.
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^ love this idea. The parking lot around city hall should definitely be removed and a plaza built in its place. It would be a great place to have vendors, musicians, and public gatherings and it would encourage our leaders to use public transit
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JJ, whoever you spoke to just isn't credible or you misunderstood. The 1801 Washington and 1014 Spruce projects may fail to proceed for a any number of reasons, but the city pulling redevelopment subsidy agreements already approved is not one of them. And in contrast, additional incentives passed last month above what already was approved for the key Downtown West redevelopment of the Butler Brothers Building after the developers said rising costs made the additional sales tax exemption for construction materials necessary. Yes, the Jones administration is making changes in subsidy policy, but let's not spread nonsense about killing them.
I hope so! Because I’ve waited a long time for those two lol… Maybe they exaggerated the subsidy policy Idk! But STL needs to be very subsidy friendly if it wants to catch up with some Downtowns in the region.STLrainbow wrote:JJ, whoever you spoke to just isn't credible or you misunderstood. The 1801 Washington and 1014 Spruce projects may fail to proceed for a any number of reasons, but the city pulling redevelopment subsidy agreements already approved is not one of them. And in contrast, additional incentives passed last month above what already was approved for the key Downtown West redevelopment of the Butler Brothers Building after the developers said rising costs made the additional sales tax exemption for construction materials necessary. Yes, the Jones administration is making changes in subsidy policy, but let's not spread nonsense about killing them.
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The reality is that there are a lot of surface lots. Most surface lot owners have no reason to sell, or might even be asking astronomical numbers, even if redevelopers were coming to the table. Hell, even more buildings south of Market are being bulldozed for more lots. They're minimal maintenance cash cows.
You have to have developers coming to the table, wanting to build, to even broach subsidies. I think it'd be pretty disgusting for any administration to publicly turn the taps on for public dollar subsidies when you have an entire swath of the city crumbling under our feet that lacks private funding, much less public funding to get new breath. I can get the health of the urban core is a vital component to an economically strong city. I worry your own investment is clouding your thought process here. I also echo the political strength as noted above for Nashville and Austin.
Big key for Downtown is implementing the master infrastructure plan with federal funds, and leverage the rams cash cow. The plan has been drawn up. The money is here, right? Allocate a portion of the money, fix traffic, sidewalks, and improve walkability and strengthen residential experience, and maybe drag a couple new large office tenants with a modernized and beautified Downtown. Probably a 1/2 of the KMOV wet-dream doom and gloom goes away.
You have to have developers coming to the table, wanting to build, to even broach subsidies. I think it'd be pretty disgusting for any administration to publicly turn the taps on for public dollar subsidies when you have an entire swath of the city crumbling under our feet that lacks private funding, much less public funding to get new breath. I can get the health of the urban core is a vital component to an economically strong city. I worry your own investment is clouding your thought process here. I also echo the political strength as noted above for Nashville and Austin.
Big key for Downtown is implementing the master infrastructure plan with federal funds, and leverage the rams cash cow. The plan has been drawn up. The money is here, right? Allocate a portion of the money, fix traffic, sidewalks, and improve walkability and strengthen residential experience, and maybe drag a couple new large office tenants with a modernized and beautified Downtown. Probably a 1/2 of the KMOV wet-dream doom and gloom goes away.