urbanSTL

^^ Philadelphia has awful architecture in spades.

^It is in the nature of cities to have both good and bad architecture. Only towns or smaller get to be completely homogeneous in their good or badness. Not that I wish to perpetuate crimes against the building arts, but mistakes are made. Situation normal. As long as we can keep them from forming a cluster it'll all be okay.

framer wrote: ↑

Jul 27, 2018

If that crazy 100-story pyramid in North Korea can be brought back from the dead, then I'm sure this one can too.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryugyong_Hotel

Hasn't really been fully brought back from the dead - they've completed the outer facade, but it's still an empty building, and no sign of it opening anytime soon (or even necessarily being completed inside). It's more like a really top-notch embalming.

Construction started on it in 1987, and it still has yet to host its first guest. It certainly looks nicer with the facade finished, but it's still nothing but the world's tallest unoccupied building. It doesn't even have electricity yet.

https://www.insider.com/abandoned-hotel ... os-2019-11

And that is one of the key problems of this city according to corporate recruiters and others: we have a lot of national talent being educated here thanks to WashU, but we cannot get them to stick around after graduation. 

kipfilet wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

And that is one of the key problems of this city according to corporate recruiters and others: we have a lot of national talent being educated here thanks to WashU, but we cannot get them to stick around after graduation. 

Sure, having an enormous flagship state school in your city can help it (e.g. Austin, Columbus, Seattle, Minneapolis, Salt Lake). But it's not a prerequisite to corporate or population growth (KC, Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, Dallas, Tampa, San Antonio, Sacramento). Sure, not all Wash. U. grads stay in St. Louis, although obviously a much larger proportion stay than Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, or Duke. But St. Louis might be the single largest attractor of graduates from SLU, Mizzou, Missouri S&T, SIUC, SEMO, SIUE, UMSL and possibly Missouri State (not to mention all of the smaller private schools). That pretty much covers the spectrum of major universities in terms of reputation/rankings, except for the absolute highest level. 

While there may be a few management development programs grooming kids for the highest levels of St. Louis' largest companies that primarily recruit Ivy League-level graduates, the vast majority of recruits to entry-level positions are not coming from Top 25 schools - and that's the same everywhere. Are Emerson, Centene, Enterprise, Purina, Ameren, Bunge, Bryan Cave, Stifel, etc... really failing to recruit the kind of talent they're looking for? It almost just seems lazy for a recruiter to say, "the problem is St. Louis doesn't keep all of the Wash. U. grads." 

wabash wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

Are Emerson, Centene, Enterprise, Purina, Ameren, Bunge, Bryan Cave, Stifel, etc... really failing to recruit the kind of talent they're looking for? It almost just seems lazy for a recruiter to say, "the problem is St. Louis doesn't keep all of the Wash. U. grads." 

For those companies, probably just lazy recruiters.  For more cutting edge startups, I think it's a real problem.  It's difficult too b/c it's a real chicken/egg type scenario.  Typical cutting edge startup says we need to move to X, Y or Z to b/c of the lack of talent here, and it's probably true.  The small portion of those that come out of Wash U STEM that are a good fit for a cutting edge startup have so many better opportunities elsewhere why stay, especially if they have no roots here.

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

wabash wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

Are Emerson, Centene, Enterprise, Purina, Ameren, Bunge, Bryan Cave, Stifel, etc... really failing to recruit the kind of talent they're looking for? It almost just seems lazy for a recruiter to say, "the problem is St. Louis doesn't keep all of the Wash. U. grads." 

For those companies, probably just lazy recruiters.  For more cutting edge startups, I think it's a real problem.  It's difficult too b/c it's a real chicken/egg type scenario.  Typical cutting edge startup says we need to move to X, Y or Z to b/c of the lack of talent here, and it's probably true.  The small portion of those that come out of Wash U STEM that are a good fit for a cutting edge startup have so many better opportunities elsewhere why stay, especially if they have no roots here.

That's a good point. I guess it's just the way it was couched. Saying "a key problem with St. Louis is it doesn't keep enough Wash U grads" seems grossly simplistic and an over generalization. There are plenty of cities with growing populations and corporate sectors (which I listed above) that aren't particularly known for their dynamic start-up sectors. Saying that not attracting certain talent could hamper the growth of certain technology start-up sectors in St. Louis makes sense though.  

I've long felt the local "We just don't have enough talent" schtick was code for "We're not willing to pay enough."

wabash wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

Sure, not all Wash. U. grads stay in St. Louis, although obviously a much larger proportion stay than Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, or Duke.

i'm curious as to why this would be obvious, if it's even true. also not sure why it's so hard to believe that local companies have a difficult time recruiting top talent. maybe they're all low-balling salaries... it's possible, i guess. but i expect that quite a few of the top WUSTL grads just have big coastal-city ambitions and perceive St. Louis as small-time, or sleepy. most of them probably aren't planning to settle down and start families right out of college. it's probably a mix.

urban_dilettante wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

wabash wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

Sure, not all Wash. U. grads stay in St. Louis, although obviously a much larger proportion stay than Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, or Duke.

i'm curious as to why this would be obvious, if it's even true. 

Ithaca, NY; Hanover, NH; Providence, RI; and Raleigh/Durham, NC have significantly smaller labor markets than St. Louis. 

^ but size of labor market doesn't automatically translate to number of graduates retained. I'd be interested to see how STL actually compares to those metros in terms of retained graduates.

wabash wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

kipfilet wrote: ↑

Mar 01, 2021

And that is one of the key problems of this city according to corporate recruiters and others: we have a lot of national talent being educated here thanks to WashU, but we cannot get them to stick around after graduation. 

Sure, having an enormous flagship state school in your city can help it (e.g. Austin, Columbus, Seattle, Minneapolis, Salt Lake). But it's not a prerequisite to corporate or population growth (KC, Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, Dallas, Tampa, San Antonio, Sacramento). Sure, not all Wash. U. grads stay in St. Louis, although obviously a much larger proportion stay than Cornell, Dartmouth, Brown, or Duke. But St. Louis might be the single largest attractor of graduates from SLU, Mizzou, Missouri S&T, SIUC, SEMO, SIUE, UMSL and possibly Missouri State (not to mention all of the smaller private schools). That pretty much covers the spectrum of major universities in terms of reputation/rankings, except for the absolute highest level. 

While there may be a few management development programs grooming kids for the highest levels of St. Louis' largest companies that primarily recruit Ivy League-level graduates, the vast majority of recruits to entry-level positions are not coming from Top 25 schools - and that's the same everywhere. Are Emerson, Centene, Enterprise, Purina, Ameren, Bunge, Bryan Cave, Stifel, etc... really failing to recruit the kind of talent they're looking for? It almost just seems lazy for a recruiter to say, "the problem is St. Louis doesn't keep all of the Wash. U. grads." 

I am not making it up. Many large corporate employers argue that this is a problem. If it's their fault (for not raising salaries) or not, I do not know. I have some anecdotal evidence against that: a year ago or so I got a job offer in the Bay Area (similar size company, similar position) that was paying a similar $$$ nominal amount to what I make here. 
Also see: viewtopic.php?p=336337#p336337

^I agree with you, Mayor.  Outside of Chicago, nowhere in the Midwest comes close to offering what St. Louis does (IMHO).  I often tell people, and truly believe, that St. Louis is just a few good breaks from really taking off.  We have most of the building blocks needed to become something special.

The perception of St. Louis throws that all away.  This has become painfully clear to me through my workplace (WUSTL).  We have a vacant spot for a Division Chief (a coveted position for academic research scientists) in one of our WUSM divisions that the school has been trying to fill for over a year and a half.  They have offered the position to at least five different people and every single one has turned down the offer.  One or two people declining an offer for a well-paying senior leadership position is one thing, no less than five people declining the same position is another.  Furthermore, this is an issue for the school from the top down.  We have had numerous researchers (at every level of their careers) turn down offers from WUSM and go to less prestigious and less well-funded institutions.  I don't think it's uncommon to hear job applicants to WUSTL say that they are concerned about potentially living here and that it will impact their decision.

Perhaps the issues troubling St. Louis would not be as much of a problem to those considering coming to St. Louis if it were not for the fact that we already have had this reputation bestowed on us for over a decade (some would say longer).  For example, I can only imagine that college students from out-of-state who come here to study were told by everyone to "be safe in St. Louis!  It's the most dangerous city in the US!"  Once here, these students see the constant news about murders and shootings (or maybe have their car broken into or are mugged), which reinforces to them that it's dangerous to live here.  The students spend four years here for school and then move elsewhere, telling people later how sketchy going to college in St. Louis was, thus repeating the cycle.

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Mar 02, 2021

I'm going to throw something out there (and truth be told I've had a couple of drinks, so I could be totally wrong lolol)...but how much of this is just perception?  I'm not here to argue St. Louis' myriad of problems...but most cities suffer from these issues to an extent...yet most don't seem to have the growth issues that we do.

We have incredible universities...great cultural attractions, architecture, etc...and despite some of the mistakes the city has made over the years (urban renewal wise) most of the urban core is still somewhat walkable and dense.

We have the assets we need to succeed (in my humble opinion) we just don't take advantage of them.

We could take what we have today and be A LOT more...but...we don't.  Chicago excluded, other Midwestern cities don't have what we have...and we do nearly nothing to sell that fact.

I personally think politics plays a role more than anything. Sure, other cities have the issue, but in St. Louis, it's just so polarizing. Black politicians versus white politicians. Progressive versus status quo and traditionalist. Differing visions for the city depending on who you ask. Decades worth of fighting over little things to big things. Failure to include all metropolitan area counties at the discussion table to figure out what the best way to move the region forward is because "some are too conservative" or "some or too liberal" or "the City? Gross.". 

If we could have one, coherent vision for the City of St. Louis and regional dialogue across St. Louis City, St. Louis County, St. Charles County, Jefferson County, Madison County, and St. Clair County (all being the most populous in the region), we could really change the tide here. This coordination is what's needed to unlock our potential. But the petty fights are what's holding us back and those fights are all political. 

Why would graduates of WashU or SLU want to stick around here when we're dysfunctional and being passed up on major job wins? Why should they stick around when we can't pull our own head out of our ass to see the bigger issues at hand here? Sure, St. Louisans talk down about their city, but so do others in other cities, just we're more vocal about it here. I think the reason for that is that people spanning all political ideologies and economic backgrounds are frustrated at the level of incompetence shown by our "leaders". They don't seem to govern effectively at all and seem to be self-serving more than serving the community at large. Only a few politicians have shown the willingness to work for the greater good, but, unfortunately, they're in the minority when it comes to governing (and I don't mean political parties either). Our issues effect all of us more than I think politicians realize, and that's a shame.

If we want to change the tide in the region, and start retaining talent and gaining the jobs that people want, we have to start at the leadership level. Without that, almost everything we do will be wasted. We can go around all day saying how...

• St. Louis is an affordable place to live.
• We have the best parks.
• A good food scene.
• A welcoming feel.
• Our neighborhoods are rich in culture and history.

But none of it really matters when we are as dysfunctional as we are. 

I almost guarantee it, get good community-minded leaders in office, have them work together to address our regional issues, and then watch us grow. Crime and public schools are two big issues but are issues that could be addressed if we all work together to solve them. I think everyone realizes that, but I don't think a lot of people realize that petty, self-serving politics is ultimately to blame for the situation we are in. Democrats and Republicans alike. It's all out there for everyone to see.

Our unfair reputation as "The most dangerous city in the country" is absolutely holding us back. Our disfunctional infighting prevents us from addressing that reputation in any effective way.

Some sort of City/County consolidation is the single most important issue facing this region.

I'd like to see data on this, I'm not completely buying this argument.  Thinking back through my circle of friends and family from Buffalo that went out of state to college, almost none of them remained in the cities they went to school. I don't think that's abnormal.  I'm a transplant due to a trade school here, and anecdotally we have transplant friends that stayed here for one reason or another after college, jobs, they liked the area etc.  

As to dysfunctionality - I highly doubt most 18-23 year old college students are that caught up in local politics to make that be a deciding factor.  As others mentioned, almost none of our problems are unique.

Once again I find locals and business leaders playing into the inferiority complex, this needs to change immediately.  

framer wrote: ↑

Mar 02, 2021

Some sort of City/County consolidation is the single most important issue facing this region.

100% agree.

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Mar 02, 2021

I'm going to throw something out there (and truth be told I've had a couple of drinks, so I could be totally wrong lolol)...but how much of this is just perception?  I'm not here to argue St. Louis' myriad of problems...but most cities suffer from these issues to an extent...yet most don't seem to have the growth issues that we do.

It is not just perception. There is hard data supporting the lack of talent hypothesis. Check the Beige Books published by the St. Louis Fed, specifically the part that that is about the STL metro for the pre-COVID period (as Covid brought a whole other host of issues). Employers consistently complain of shortages of workers, especially educated/specialized ones. Examples: https://research.stlouisfed.org/publica ... eige-book/ or https://research.stlouisfed.org/publica ... eige-book/ . If you check the Beige Books pre-January 2020 you will find a mention of this in almost every single issue. 

Unfortunately St. Louis has established itself as a declining city and despite the fact that we likely hit bottom a decade ago, our national reputation will stick for a while. Yes we here all know how underrated STL is, but how often do you even see us portrayed in the media anymore? Let alone in a positive or even neutral light. Our music scene is locally great but nationally just a shadow of its former self. We have a lot of great things going for us but they either aren't relevant/exciting/unique on a national level or just not properly marketed.

U.S. Adds 4 Million Jobs But In St. Louis

St. Louis needs to establish a better identity for itself. The bio-tech scene is second to none and will go a long way towards defining us in the future, but St. Louis really needs to work on cultural identity. I've said this here before but our craft beer scene is one of the few areas where St. Louis blows away the competition, and I feel like we don't do a good job of promoting this. Nashville is the capital of country music, but if you asked a man on the street in Anywhere, USA where the capital of craft beer is he likely wouldn't know because the title is up for grabs.

Imagine downtown with 30 taprooms all within walking distance to each other. Maybe the majority of them would be local breweries but if we establish ourselves as the capital of craft beer then we could get taprooms from other elite breweries around the country trying to get in on the action. Our hotels will never want for occupancy again because they would be so flooded with bachelor parties. 

It doesn't even have to be downtown, smaller versions of this would do amazing localized in the Landing, Lemp Complex, or some future Foundryish development.

It's rare for a city to be the best as something, let alone a segment as powerful and growing as craft beer. STL needs to strike while the iron is hot and establish itself as the cultural center of the craft beer world.

I'm not sure what the effect would have been but if it had happened and was handled the right way, the Great North American Oktoberfest that was supposed to occur in 2019 but was then delayed to 2020 (and then presumably cancelled due to Covid or other reasons) could have helped make St. Louis a craft beer destination city. I'm guessing that whole venture is dead now (their website seems to have vanished). 

Our bad reputation and the terrible PR, fair or not Has haunted our region.
-Most dangerous city (Crime is bad but the stats are diluted by city-County divide)
-Declining population from 1950-present (while population within City limits declined, people flocked to the burbs like many places)
-Perception that the “population of St. Louis is 305K, not 2.8M. We know that is bogus, but independent City of STL is the 53rd largest, once the 4th. We hear that quote often and it perpetuates the belief that we are declining way more than we really are.
-Ferguson- As we now know, this can happen anywhere in the country
-Loss of flagship corporations; AB, TWA, etc. (They hurt but we still have many large F500 public & private companies)
-Rams move & StanK trashing the market (Most know that was a lie as part of a rigged process)
-Centene threats to stop investing in STL. While I agree I’m some ways with Neidorff, I think his motives have to be questioned. What other cities have Been threatened like this???
* It just seems like STL can’t stay out of the National News for bad reasons since Ferguson to the present. Ex) Ferguson riots, Stockley riots, Floyd riots, jail riots, Art Hill protests, McCloskeys, killing of children throughout City, Rams move, Nierdorff threats, etc, etc etc. I wish for the day we can stay out of our own way. Stay out of the National News for bad reasons.

Many of our issues stem from the City-County divide as Chris laid out. I’ve said nothing most of us didn’t already know. I just wanted to emphasize how a lot of our bad reputation/perception issues stem from false narratives & lack of regional cooperation. We in STL have all the pieces in place to join the ranks of the growing, thriving ‘hot cities’. We actually have more amenities, more diverse economy and great institutions, compared to a Columbus, Nashville and/or Indy, yet we are underachieving.

Sorry for the rant but this perception due to self-inflicted wounds is SO frustrating to me!  We need MUCH better leadership in government! We the people need to demand better than partisan bickering, petty beefs and racial strife in government.