We can get off track a lot in other specific topic threads - especially when it comes to comparing St. Louis to other cities in the U.S. (such as discussing Atlanta in the SLCOP thread).
Please use this thread to discuss or measure St. Louis against other cities.
Discuss differences in jobs, transportation, medical facilities, universities, technology, urbanism, sprawl etc.
Race Relations- we fair were badly against other cities...
my boss (who is AA) says his kids refuse to visit STL, they live in ATL, because of our race issues and this is before Ferguson. He moved here 12 years ago and said he slowly noticed the issue too (he lives in St.Charles)
my friend from grade school moved to Baltimore for grad school and never came back...he said its night and day.
Good thread. It actually would be kind of fun to do a Sweet 16 bracket of best cities and who comes out on top. Obviously if Chicago doesn't get a quick exit, the game is rigged
With that said, while it has a lot of advantages, Chicago isn't everything.
St. Louis has a growing, world-class high-technology district, which has garnered a lot of international attention and is considered tops in the Midwest. What does Chicago have similarly?
Anyway, this thread really isn't to have pissing matches against other cities, but to reasonably assess and measure St. Louis' strengths, assets and shortcomings against other cities.
good source for this kind of information is the East West Gateways: Where We Stand. its currently in its 6th editions...
Main Doc from 2011- http://www.ewgateway.org/pdffiles/libra ... ws2011.pdf
ongoing analysis of how St. Louis compares to 34 peer metro areas. It provides metro rankings in 129 categories based on objective data from authoritative sources.
Anyway, this thread really isn't to have pissing matches against other cities, but to reasonably assess and measure St. Louis' strengths, assets and shortcomings against other cities.[/quote]
^While true, it seems that we also over-emphasize or put too much stock in our "positive" traits and that is why a lot of people from outside STL hate it/us.
I'd love to audience a focus group which is totally made up of people not native to STL who have lived here for various amounts of time and in different age ranges. I would like to know what they think about how St. Louis fares compared to other places.
As much as I love it here, the more I come into contact with people that are here temporarily or permanently but didn't grow up here, the more I think the assets that we herald are lost on some of those people. That said, I genuinely don't understand why some people hate it here so much. I've spent a lot of time in other places, and granted many of them are challenged midwest, midsouth cities similar to STL, however at every step of the way, I think a place is what you make of it. Content and happy people generally find the positive and nurture it. People who have an eye out for cynicism or criticism will have a low threshold to be disenchanted wherever they are.
blzhrpmd2 wrote:^While true, it seems that we also over-emphasize or put too much stock in our "positive" traits and that is why a lot of people from outside STL hate it/us.
I'd love to audience a focus group which is totally made up of people not native to STL who have lived here for various amounts of time and in different age ranges. I would like to know what they think about how St. Louis fares compared to other places.
As much as I love it here, the more I come into contact with people that are here temporarily or permanently but didn't grow up here, the more I think the assets that we herald are lost on some of those people. That said, I genuinely don't understand why some people hate it here so much. I've spent a lot of time in other places, and granted many of them are challenged midwest, midsouth cities similar to STL, however at every step of the way, I think a place is what you make of it. Content and happy people generally find the positive and nurture it. People who have an eye out for cynicism or criticism will have a low threshold to be disenchanted wherever they are.
Aside from the whole "Best Fans in Baseball" stuff, what else is there?
Dweebe, I had the same thought after reading the first sentence. My favorite talking points about St. Louis to other people is The Zoo (the fact that this place is free should make it the ebst Zoo in the world), Forrest Park, The Symphony, BJC/WashU. If you enjoy hunting Deer or Turkey Mo/IL are great places. Shawnee Natl forest, MArk Twain, and the other parks in SE Mo are great, but they arent anyhting like the west. This is about it.
Just remember, in 100 years when Houston, NY, Boston, Miami, Seattle, and Seattle are undrewater, and Dallas, Denver, LA, SD, Phoenix, and San Antonio don't have any water towns like Stl, Cincy, Det, Pitt will really make a comeback. Just give it time.
What we do better at:
--Historic residential architecture (very few cities can match it anywhere)
--General loose, "anything goes" spirit of the city (i.e.- participation in edgy events such as World Naked Bike Ride, Pridefest, No Pants Subway Ride, Naughti Gras, etc is HUGE compared to most comparably sized cities). We know how to party.
--Our urban parks trump most of our peer cities
What we do worse at:
--Our corporate leadership is probably the worst in the entire country. No shared vision or commitment to building a stronger downtown whatsoever.
--Powers-that-be continually bend over for suburban "convenience" and expectations (downtown St. Louis is the most over-parked CBD in America - FACT)
--Connectivity between urban neighborhoods is among the worst in the nation- the connective tissue continues to erode in favor of auto-centric development.
--Our leadership blindly throws money at silver bullet projects again and again and again. Instead of looking to progressive, thriving cities as models, we continue to do things the way we've always done and hoping for different results. (NorthSide Regeneration, NFL stadium proposal, BPV, chasing Taste of St. Louis out of town in favor of some hypothetical "Summer Rocks" festival, etc)
--We love to dumb down and half-ass EVERYTHING. (Ballpark Village, abandoning vision for N-S MetroLink, dismissing the concept of a boulevard in place of I-70 downtown, among many other examples)
--With a few notable exceptions, our new construction infill sucks compared to our peer cities.
--Crime. No matter how you slice and dice it, we have a very real problem.
There are many more things, both good and bad, but this is what I can think of off the top of my head.
siu850956106 wrote:Just remember, in 100 years when Houston, NY, Boston, Miami, Seattle, and Seattle are underwater, and Dallas, Denver, LA, SD, Phoenix, and San Antonio don't have any water towns like Stl, Cincy, Det, Pitt will really make a comeback. Just give it time.
^LOL! So St. Louis has to be 351-years old before it comes back? Do those other cities have to literally drown in trashy climate change salt water before St. Louis makes a comeback?
St. Louis can compete with coastal cities - I strongly believe that. Look at arctic Minneapolis. It's neither coastal nor Southern. MSP is doing things and is competing hard despite the weather and some lingering rust industries.
St. Louis just needs to continue to retool its economy then come deeper into the 21st Century plus get rid of the "good ol' boys" who hold it back. They can't die off soon enough.
St. Louis needs a new economy that is more inclusive of everyone. Just as St. Louis' economy grew with the help of technical and trade schools, St. Louis needs an expanded focus on STEM education region-wide - especially in St. Louis City.
My experience is that this city's biggest fans are usually well educated people who didn't grow up here -- and who live in or near the region's central core.
They typically credit the big city feel -- walkable neighborhoods, great architecture, museums, parks, culture.
They then credit the relative accessibility of those qualities. On the coast, they'd be forced to live in a distant suburb. Think Manhattan, but relaxed and for normal people who work for a living.
As one of those transplants, I find that many native St. Louisans have low corporate self-esteem and seldom realize what they've got. I see that as an educational opportunity.
If you live in a north St. Louis slum, St. Louis is bad compared to other cities.
If you live in Lafayette Square or Soulard, St. Louis is cool compared to other cities.
If you live in a newer St. Charles or Fenton subdivision, St. Louis is about the same as anywhere else, only a lot cheaper.
This is a great answer. I'd just add that people in places like St. Charles and Fenton have a tendency to go to other cities and say how cool they are compared to St. Louis. That's because you are in the cool parts of those cities and not in their burbs! Apple and oranges, people.
^^I think that's an oversimplification-as if you can't experience Soulard, Laf Square or Benton Park and live in the county or some other city neighborhood. I don't live in Soulard, however Soulard's characteristics get tossed into the mix when I reflect on my personal image of what St. Louis is to me. I don't live in North City either but that doesn't mean that I ignore its existence. Does that also mean that someone who lives downtown never takes their kids to the Butterfly House or Grant's Farm, never shops at the Galleria, doesn't go to the Transportation Museum, or has a beer at Fast Eddie's after golf or eat's at Citizen Kane's?
What I meant earlier about over-emphasizing our traits comes from personal observations with friends and acquaintances over the years. One example is dumb, but I think makes the point: St. Louis-style pizza. There is no reason why the national media would give a tinker's damn about St louis-style pizza if St. Louisans (some very prominent) didn't spend so much time endorsing it. There is a pleasure that people get from destroying it as if you must be a knuckle-dragging mouth breather to like the stuff. Outsiders love to point out that we really don't have anything worth enjoying and the things we do are not that great anyway and reflect our low class and poor taste. That pleasure seems directly proportional to the amount of pride that "we" seem to have for it. Google St. Louis style pizza and there are multiple examples of how it's the "most maligned" and uses fake cheese, yada yada, yet Philadelpha uses freaking cheese whiz on their steaks, but ssshhhh, you could never say anything bad about food from the east coast.
That's extreme and a trite example, however I think that attitude can be taken on in some other ways. The things that were mentioned in the above posts are things I also focus on when "selling" St. Louis to someone: our museums, the zoo, parks, diverse neighborhood vibes, the symphony, the Fox, etc. But if you are working hard to convince a certain audience by pointing out those specific things, that audience is likely fairly urban minded already, and to them a city should have those attributes and they should be common assets, not luxuries. Whereas we would say "check out BJC with the metro link underneath and pubs next door, right next to a beautiful urban park full of our free museums," is someone whose has lived in NYC, Boston, Chicago, or Philadelphia supposed to be impressed with that? More in our league, places like Cincinnati have beautiful urban parks nestled in possibly a prettier setting with more interesting topography, and plenty of historic architecture as well.
Instead of just cultivating those things, however, and letting them speak for themselves the way successful big cities do, sometimes I think we oversell the components of our city that shouldn't need to be pointed out as unique. If I was trying to sell someone my car which I had been telling them was so great for some time, would it make sense to say, "it has comfortable seats, it has a steering wheel, the pedals work, and it has an intact windshield"? Those are the things any buyer would take for granted, as you can find them in just about any car on the road. If he asked for more information and I gave a speech about how I learned to drive in that car, drove it on my first date, and took a road trip in it during college, that doesn't help him understand why he should buy it. I think we fall into that trap around here at times and that's why outsiders feel like they are trying to break into a club when they move here. They look at our "assets" and think----aren't those supposed to be here?
I've had multiple situations where people have flat out asked me why St. Louisans think the city is so great. As time has gone on, I don't really have a good answer anymore besides this is home and I think it's fantastic. The parts that make it what it is can be replicated and certainly out done in other places, and without the ties of nostalgia, tradition, and familiarity I have to them and an invested desire to watch St. Louis flourish, maybe I wouldn't be as impressed either. How we go from being a place that has to point out it's every feature vs. one that naturally attracts a diverse population comes from the other lists of what we need to work on mentioned above, and I hope we can succeed.
^ lots of interesting points, just a few thoughts in reply...
St. Louis pizza IS bad!
Being aware of the slums of north city is not the same as living in them.
I was always under the impression that in general, St. Louisans are pretty modest and don't brag much about anything here. Instead, you usually get the impression that we are our own worst enemies, wondering why anyone would ever want to live here.
The people we show around from other states love the place and are surprised by all it offers.
blzhrpmd2 wrote:^^I think that's an oversimplification-as if you can't experience Soulard, Laf Square or Benton Park and live in the county or some other city neighborhood.
Not "can't" but "won't". StL suburbanites often have no interest in exploring St. Louis City the way they explore other cities they visit. They go into the city for specific things they want or need, or to attend a sporting event, maybe hit a bar and then head home. Then they wander around Other City, explore the shops and art galleries and stop into a community theater show, hit a local neighborhood restaurant, and they get super-impressed by it. They don't know or care that StL has many of the same amenities. They don't worry about being murdered, because they don't watch the local news on vacation and hear the steady drumbeat of anti-urban sentiment. They explore other cities with the open mind they don't have for St. Louis.
blzhrpmd2 wrote:^^I think that's an oversimplification-as if you can't experience Soulard, Laf Square or Benton Park and live in the county or some other city neighborhood.
Not "can't" but "won't". StL suburbanites often have no interest in exploring St. Louis City the way they explore other cities they visit. They go into the city for specific things they want or need, or to attend a sporting event, maybe hit a bar and then head home. Then they wander around Other City, explore the shops and art galleries and stop into a community theater show, hit a local neighborhood restaurant, and they get super-impressed by it. They don't know or care that StL has many of the same amenities. They don't worry about being murdered, because they don't watch the local news on vacation and hear the steady drumbeat of anti-urban sentiment. They explore other cities with the open mind they don't have for St. Louis.
Bingo. I have suburban and exurban friends who limit their city trips to Busch Stadium and Scottrade Center or the very occasional Soulard trip. Yet I see their travels on Facebook and they're bopping around urban areas of Chicago, Austin or Atlanta without a care.
blzhrpmd2, Too me it sounds like you might be a little more sensitive about this than you need to be. The City really does have great assets that are attractive to outsiders, even more so because of the cost of living and being able to enjoy them in comparison to East Coast cities. The quality of our historic residential brick architecture in neighborhoods throughout the entire city is actually unique and special from most cities, even from some of the more traditional "powerhouse" cities. There is no doubt that other comparable cities can match and exceed the quality of our built environment in our traditional downtown and arterial roads, because 1) every old city has some beautiful architecture and 2)we've given up on or physically lost much of the unique character of our arterial roads due to chasing after parking and traffic concerns and just straight up decline. But that our average, typical residential architecture just about throughout the entire city is quality, aesthetically pleasing brick architecture is a great asset that most cities do not have.
And also some of the other things that more suburban St. Louisans are proud of- like the culture of regional support for the Cardinals and Forest Park- really are assets that most outsiders admire and consider cool about St. Louis too. The Arch is also a neat, unique asset.
I'm not saying that is all stuff that we as St. Louisans should hang our hat on and congratulate each other because our work is done- "We have one of the coolest cities in the world!". But there is no reason at all to think these assets aren't unique to St. Louis as things that we can build on to truly create a great city.
Much more important than trying to downplay some of our historic and cultural assets is being honest with ourselves about the crime, racial inequality, educational inequality, and rampant attitude of parochialism and anti-regionalism that exists that really do make outsiders question and critique St. Louis.
few months back i met a couple in their 60s that retired here from Maine...they bought a house in southampton and love the neighborhood, they had some friends visiting from Maine and are also considering the move. ps if you haven't been to soha lately, please stop by...get dinner at grapeseed, dessert at Russells and bucket of beers at Macklind Ave deli and soon you will be able to get Asian street-food at Copper Pig next to the Mack bar and grill while you wait for your prescription to be filled at Keller Pharmacy that's moving next to Big River Running and be sure to pick up a shirt or 5 at Onetime Supply Company across the street from the Mack- http://www.onetimesupplyco.com/
One thing I'm wondering about now though is actually how our suburbs stack up against other cities' suburbs. I completely understand that suburbs in general are not the most compelling of places, but I wonder if our lack of suburbs that are well connected to transit contributes to the "boringness" of St. Louis and the perception of "boringness" from outsiders. Several cities do prioritize having some suburbs that are better connected to rail transit lines and so provide more interesting, walkable suburban communities. And by extension, more people in their suburbs utilize public transit and feel more comfortable having regular and more frequent connection to their central city. If you stack up what we consider our "best suburbs" to other cities' "best suburbs", I wonder how they'd compare.
dannyJ, you are preaching to the choir and I agree with you.
In my line of work I am constantly working with people from all over the country who have spent time all around the country. You can only be told how lame it is here so many times before you start to wonder why people don't see the greatness the way you do. These insults have come from all sorts of people too; those from major cities on the coasts, rural areas, as well as other similarly sized midwestern metros-those bother me the most. Every time it baffles me. Sure, I have had plenty of visitors talk about how great STL is too, but when someone agrees with you don't focus on what you are doing wrong or how you could better sell the city. It seems like the people I've come across that won't given STL a fair shake are the one's on paper we are having the hardest time attracting demographically- that is the cause for the sensitivity that perhaps is reflected above.
