Deleted... duplicate post
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Here is some new construction planned or under construction for Downtown Detroit:
Govt./Civic
M-1 Streetcar down Woodward Ave.
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DTE Energy-sponsored park
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Commerical
Approved Little Ceasar's Corporate Expansion
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Proposed Meridian Health HQ -- Scrapped for old Compuware HQ purchase
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Residential
Approved residential above existing parking garage
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Approved Statler City Apartments
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Approved Gilbert Apartment Building
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Mixed-Use
Planned Gilbert massive project on old Hudson's site
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Also, the new Red Wings Arena is under construction just north of downtown and the mixed-use project has plans for mixed-use infill in downtown proper, including new apartments next to Comerica Park fronting Woodward Ave., but no renderings released yet.
Govt./Civic
M-1 Streetcar down Woodward Ave.
DTE Energy-sponsored park
Commerical
Approved Little Ceasar's Corporate Expansion
Proposed Meridian Health HQ -- Scrapped for old Compuware HQ purchase
Residential
Approved residential above existing parking garage
Approved Statler City Apartments
Approved Gilbert Apartment Building
Mixed-Use
Planned Gilbert massive project on old Hudson's site
Also, the new Red Wings Arena is under construction just north of downtown and the mixed-use project has plans for mixed-use infill in downtown proper, including new apartments next to Comerica Park fronting Woodward Ave., but no renderings released yet.
goat314,
good call on the Hilton 360... that is a must-see view; even if that is not a person's normal scene its well worth it to go during the day and order a drink and enjoy the view. M/X is a good add, too, although I'm not sure the re-purposing of the Tucker Building for SLU quite fits.
I also added the Culinaria/parking garage because of the importance of the grocery... I guess you could also add the city garage with the Kinko's and other street level retail if we wanted to stretch things.
good call on the Hilton 360... that is a must-see view; even if that is not a person's normal scene its well worth it to go during the day and order a drink and enjoy the view. M/X is a good add, too, although I'm not sure the re-purposing of the Tucker Building for SLU quite fits.
I also added the Culinaria/parking garage because of the importance of the grocery... I guess you could also add the city garage with the Kinko's and other street level retail if we wanted to stretch things.
I agree we can't discount the residential rehabs and perhaps we have a higher degree of rehab versus new compared to peers, but when we measure against others we have to ask why peers are able to mix a significant amount of residential/commercial rehab with at least a dose of new office & residential.... those 2 post-2000 office buildings in Detroit have over 750,000 sq. ft. of space and employ a couple thousand workers while rehabs are going-gangbusters around them and a few residential new construction projects have been approved by the city and await groundbreaking.goat314 wrote:I think its hard to compare other cities to St. Louis. Every city has its own dynamics. I think St. Louis has been rehabbing like crazy since 2000. Thousands of units have come online by simply rehabbing buildings. I think we are just not there for large new construction yet.
I think my major concern is that we seem to have lost momentum the past few years.... Downtown STL says we've only been adding about 350 ppl. per year the past few years while we added closer to 500/yr. in the 00's. I thought after the Laurel and Park Pacific were completed circa 2011 as the economy began to see some signs of recovery that things would just take off from there but they haven't. Arcade-Wright was a monster to birth and aside from the Alverne and a couple other smaller projects there really is only gossip on projects in the pipeline. And office is a mess. Meanwhile, progress in other cities is fast & furious in recent years. Not so sure why this has happened, but I do believe downtown would have been much further along if the Centene deal would have been sealed and delivered.
My hope is that by next Spring when all the new stuff has come online -- M/X spots, Arcade-Wright, Arch grounds, etc. -- we'll have a more attractive and settled downtown and hopefully see more follow-on projects from that. Of course, City+Arch+River folks promised economic development would result from the massive project so it better deliver.
I agree. I think there are number of parallel trends going on that make the question of St. Louis City's construction and investment trends a bit complicated.goat314 wrote:I think its hard to compare other cities to St. Louis. Every city has its own dynamics.
As RW is saying, the rate of Downtown new construction can easily be considered disappointing. For the longest time Downtown was considered a place for corporate/office businesses and shopping, then it was just a place of corporate/office businesses, and since 2000 it's been a place for historic/rehab loft living and corporate businesses (with the former growing and the latter shrinking). New construction apartment or condo living has yet to become a significant part of its identity, and I suppose that is indeed disappointing.
However, the Central Corridor has been adding significant new construction residential condo and multifamily housing since 2000, with 4545 Lindell, Park East Tower, 6 N Euclid, 3949 Lindell, West Pine Lofts, The Standard, City Walk, Opus @ Lindell & Euclid, 245 Union, and Metro Lofts. I might be missing a few. Other new construction projects like Gotham (subsidized housing), Loop Lofts (partially in the City Limits), Aventura (vom), Cortona, and Lofts at the Highlands have gone up more along the periphery the Central Corridor.
If all or many of those projects were clustered in and around Downtown, the perception would be quite different. I might be wrong, but I don't think Detroit and a lot of peer cities have neighborhoods like that CWE and surrounding Central Corridor that offer dense and highly desirable urban environments within their city limits that are attracting extensive new construction investment. The Woodward corridor has been adding projects, but I don't think it's been on the same scale and most of those projects are no further from DT than what we would consider Midtown. Ultimately I think this will serve St. Louis well, because it strengthens more of the urban footprint and offers consumers different living choices. But perhaps it may cause things to move more slowly in the CBD since it has more competition for residents seeking walkability.
Of course, Clayton presents similar issues. But I think the difference is that many comparable and larger cities like Detroit have some version thereof outside their city limits (although perhaps not on quite the same scale relatively).
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^ I agree that most of Detroit's new construction projects are centered in the Downtown/Midtown area that would stretch to about Vandeventer in terms of distance... it is more compact in terms of the downtown/Midtown/EDs & Meds Corridor than ours; the benefit of having that more concentrated area is that like KC they are rapidly creating a vibrant, walkable and connected core whereas ours just sort of dissipates around 17th/18th Street before picking up again around SLU. And the KC and Detroit Streetcars should be a huge boost.
Cleveland is an example I think of an area that is killing it downtown as well as in assorted neighborhoods with new construction... I'll try to post some examples soon.
As for Clayton, I don't see that as too much of an issue.... just about every downtown had bled jobs and the issue is to what extent are they recapturing office activity. And we're competing (or not competing) with the West County market and beyond as much as with Clayton whether its established companies or new ones. That will have to change or our progress downtown will be limited.
Cleveland is an example I think of an area that is killing it downtown as well as in assorted neighborhoods with new construction... I'll try to post some examples soon.
As for Clayton, I don't see that as too much of an issue.... just about every downtown had bled jobs and the issue is to what extent are they recapturing office activity. And we're competing (or not competing) with the West County market and beyond as much as with Clayton whether its established companies or new ones. That will have to change or our progress downtown will be limited.
Cleveland is a great example of a mix of rehab and new construction going on right now in downtown... just a sampling of projects completed last year or under construction beginning with the E. 9th/Euclid corner:
Recently Completed Cuyahoga County HQ
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Next door is the recently completed rehab of an empty Marcel Breur tower for apartments and Metropolitan Hotel (I believe a Marriott brand):
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That adjoins the recently renovated corner building (vacant bank lobby) for a full-sized Heinen's grocery store:
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Turning the corner and heading down Euclid towards Playhouse Square are a slew of residential rehabs under construction.
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Across the street from the Heinen's, another corner of E. 9th & Euclid is getting rehabbed for another apartment/upscale boutique hotel (Kimpton) project:
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And plans have just been announced for the mixed-use rehab of the 1 million square foot Huntington Building on the NE corner:
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Down E 9th a block is the recently completed apartment conversion of the East Ohio Gas Building
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Meanwhile in other parts of downtown, numerous other projects were recently completed or are under construction, including:
Phase II Flats East construction with Phase I new Ernst & Young anchored office tower and Aloft Hotel and restaurants behind:
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Hilton Convention Center Hotel
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Drury Hotels rehab of former Board of Ed Building
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In addition to the convention center hotel, some civic projects such as a re-do of Public Square are underway ahead of next year's RNC Convention. And the plans on the drawing boards are numerous, highlighted by the approved NuCLEus project:
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We'll see if that ever breaks ground but regardless Cleveland is lapping us downtown while also having quite competitive activity in the neighborhoods such as Ohio City and University Circle/Uptown.
Recently Completed Cuyahoga County HQ
Next door is the recently completed rehab of an empty Marcel Breur tower for apartments and Metropolitan Hotel (I believe a Marriott brand):
That adjoins the recently renovated corner building (vacant bank lobby) for a full-sized Heinen's grocery store:
Turning the corner and heading down Euclid towards Playhouse Square are a slew of residential rehabs under construction.
Across the street from the Heinen's, another corner of E. 9th & Euclid is getting rehabbed for another apartment/upscale boutique hotel (Kimpton) project:
And plans have just been announced for the mixed-use rehab of the 1 million square foot Huntington Building on the NE corner:
Down E 9th a block is the recently completed apartment conversion of the East Ohio Gas Building
Meanwhile in other parts of downtown, numerous other projects were recently completed or are under construction, including:
Phase II Flats East construction with Phase I new Ernst & Young anchored office tower and Aloft Hotel and restaurants behind:
Hilton Convention Center Hotel
Drury Hotels rehab of former Board of Ed Building
In addition to the convention center hotel, some civic projects such as a re-do of Public Square are underway ahead of next year's RNC Convention. And the plans on the drawing boards are numerous, highlighted by the approved NuCLEus project:
We'll see if that ever breaks ground but regardless Cleveland is lapping us downtown while also having quite competitive activity in the neighborhoods such as Ohio City and University Circle/Uptown.
A lot of new retail has opened recently downtown. Death in the Afternoon is doing well, from what i've heard. Lots of new restaurants on Washington. I'd like to see more actual stores downtown. What is the deal with Railway? Yackey needs to make redevelop it or sell it.. that has really hurt the immediate CBD.
Since Detroit is now right to work, do they see more non-union shops bidding for construction work downtown? We also need a white knight like their Quicken Loans guy.
I recently saw that the old CPI building and 1501 Washington are for sale with JLL. Perhaps that will bring some new energy to the western side of Wash Ave.
Since Detroit is now right to work, do they see more non-union shops bidding for construction work downtown? We also need a white knight like their Quicken Loans guy.
I recently saw that the old CPI building and 1501 Washington are for sale with JLL. Perhaps that will bring some new energy to the western side of Wash Ave.
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^ good to see the old CPI building is getting marketed.... that area really could use a boost. And we definitely need more retails stores; Star Clipper is a start and hopefully we'll get some more. A drugstore would be great and I hope we're near on that.
But things like clothing stores, etc. may be a challenge for a while. Interestingly, though, downtown Detroit has had Moosejaw for a few years -- it is sort of like a local Alpine Shop -- and Cleveland will be getting a somehwat similar local business Geiger's later this year in a historic building finishing up its rehab with apartments up top.
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I wish a local like Alpine Shop would take the plunge.
But things like clothing stores, etc. may be a challenge for a while. Interestingly, though, downtown Detroit has had Moosejaw for a few years -- it is sort of like a local Alpine Shop -- and Cleveland will be getting a somehwat similar local business Geiger's later this year in a historic building finishing up its rehab with apartments up top.
I wish a local like Alpine Shop would take the plunge.
We need a Dave Peacock of retail and corporations. Someone who can put the bug in the collective business' ear that pioneering downtown will and can be beneficial for the region.
Then to modify the statement, we need recentralization of the metropolitan area to rise to the level of importance of professional sports in the eyes of the 1) the people whose job it is to do so 2) the media 3) Joe Bloe St. Louisan.
I'm as addicted to sports as the next guy, but these issues should be front and center.
I'm as addicted to sports as the next guy, but these issues should be front and center.
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^ A very basic thing Woodruff could do is market downtown as a place to live and work. Downtown Cleveland does a regular sponsored-content campaign in the business daily and Cleveland.com. Here's the latest featuring walkability helping downtown gain residents and jobs:
http://t.co/usCMZZVmJH
http://t.co/usCMZZVmJH
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Does anyone here honestly ever see "recentralization of the metropolitan area" becoming one of our region's priorities... ever? I'm not asking to be defeatist for defeatism's sake, or to be a smartass, or whatever. I'm just seriously asking the question.
I just feel like short of a massive campaign funded at the City, County, and State levels to build a bunch of shiny new class-A skyscrapers in Clayton and downtown St. Louis and let corporations lease space there rent-free for a few years, the incentives necessary for companies to move their headquarters from Chesterfield/Town & Country/Des Peres/Wentzville/etc. will never exist. I don't say this because it's feasible and/or a cause someone should consider taking up, I merely say so to illustrate how difficult prioritizing the recentralization of our metro area is from a practical standpoint.
As it is, it seems to me that too many of the "decision-makers" are too heavily financially invested in the status quo. I could be wrong, but I don't see any way around this problem. Running ads on stltoday.com is a nice thought, but what real difference would it honestly make if they did? I know there's something to be said for trying to pitch our existing corporations on the attractiveness of potential new recruits to work in an urban environment rather than a suburban office park, but to be honest, it doesn't seem to make a big difference among the people I know who work in office buildings in west county, anecdotally speaking. Of course, all things being equal, they'd rather work somewhere more "happening" than West County, but by-and-large they seem perfectly content to take their jobs as-is.
I think Edward Jones even just won an award for being one of the best places to work, and that's headquartered in Des Peres. I don't think urbanism is a priority for these corporations, nor will it ever be.
Just my two cents.
I just feel like short of a massive campaign funded at the City, County, and State levels to build a bunch of shiny new class-A skyscrapers in Clayton and downtown St. Louis and let corporations lease space there rent-free for a few years, the incentives necessary for companies to move their headquarters from Chesterfield/Town & Country/Des Peres/Wentzville/etc. will never exist. I don't say this because it's feasible and/or a cause someone should consider taking up, I merely say so to illustrate how difficult prioritizing the recentralization of our metro area is from a practical standpoint.
As it is, it seems to me that too many of the "decision-makers" are too heavily financially invested in the status quo. I could be wrong, but I don't see any way around this problem. Running ads on stltoday.com is a nice thought, but what real difference would it honestly make if they did? I know there's something to be said for trying to pitch our existing corporations on the attractiveness of potential new recruits to work in an urban environment rather than a suburban office park, but to be honest, it doesn't seem to make a big difference among the people I know who work in office buildings in west county, anecdotally speaking. Of course, all things being equal, they'd rather work somewhere more "happening" than West County, but by-and-large they seem perfectly content to take their jobs as-is.
I think Edward Jones even just won an award for being one of the best places to work, and that's headquartered in Des Peres. I don't think urbanism is a priority for these corporations, nor will it ever be.
Just my two cents.
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^ I certainly think a robust marketing of downtown through a variety of means would help attract residents and jobs.... DowntownSTL is mostly out of sight, out of mind with a crappy web presence and little info.
They do have a better video out now that actually focuses on core things like tech, office and apartments rather on secondary things like sports and arch grounds... about time!... but it is still pretty stale.
Compare the STL video:
with Cleveland's:
We had a great start and then boom, Mayor Slay comes on! Less talk, more action!
Anyway, back to the point, yes, constantly telling your story about how downtown is the greatest thing is vital... you have to be able to back it up, but you need to promote yourself and your success just like any business to gain market share.
And in terms of attracting companies, the idea isn't so much of getting Giant Corp. to move their HQ to downtown but rather to have a myriad of smaller companies find their home here and to attract at least a piece of the pie of Giant Corp.. It certainly is possible to re-center the region a bit but you have to get out and get it done.
They do have a better video out now that actually focuses on core things like tech, office and apartments rather on secondary things like sports and arch grounds... about time!... but it is still pretty stale.
Compare the STL video:
with Cleveland's:
We had a great start and then boom, Mayor Slay comes on! Less talk, more action!
Anyway, back to the point, yes, constantly telling your story about how downtown is the greatest thing is vital... you have to be able to back it up, but you need to promote yourself and your success just like any business to gain market share.
And in terms of attracting companies, the idea isn't so much of getting Giant Corp. to move their HQ to downtown but rather to have a myriad of smaller companies find their home here and to attract at least a piece of the pie of Giant Corp.. It certainly is possible to re-center the region a bit but you have to get out and get it done.
Yeah, I find myself generally in agreement with this. Without financial incentives for companies and a massive campaign to win "hearts and minds," I don't really see it ever becoming a priority again. I also see something of a bubble effect on this board where, because we all find it desirable, we assume most other people find the idea of working downtown desirable. We seem to take it as a given, with minimal factual evidence, that moving downtown will help companies recruit. Anecdotally, I know lots of professional, white collar people who prefer the suburban office park to urban form. There also seems to be conflicting data about which environment "millennials" prefer (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/thin ... ink-again/).Mound City wrote:Does anyone here honestly ever see "recentralization of the metropolitan area" becoming one of our region's priorities... ever? I'm not asking to be defeatist for defeatism's sake, or to be a smartass, or whatever. I'm just seriously asking the question.
I just feel like short of a massive campaign funded at the City, County, and State levels to build a bunch of shiny new class-A skyscrapers in Clayton and downtown St. Louis and let corporations lease space there rent-free for a few years, the incentives necessary for companies to move their headquarters from Chesterfield/Town & Country/Des Peres/Wentzville/etc. will never exist. I don't say this because it's feasible and/or a cause someone should consider taking up, I merely say so to illustrate how difficult prioritizing the recentralization of our metro area is from a practical standpoint.
As it is, it seems to me that too many of the "decision-makers" are too heavily financially invested in the status quo. I could be wrong, but I don't see any way around this problem. Running ads on stltoday.com is a nice thought, but what real difference would it honestly make if they did? I know there's something to be said for trying to pitch our existing corporations on the attractiveness of potential new recruits to work in an urban environment rather than a suburban office park, but to be honest, it doesn't seem to make a big difference among the people I know who work in office buildings in west county, anecdotally speaking. Of course, all things being equal, they'd rather work somewhere more "happening" than West County, but by-and-large they seem perfectly content to take their jobs as-is.
I think Edward Jones even just won an award for being one of the best places to work, and that's headquartered in Des Peres. I don't think urbanism is a priority for these corporations, nor will it ever be.
Just my two cents.
On the whole, I think its important for our region to have a vibrant CBD and to attract jobs to our urban core, but I also think that we shouldn't just assume as fact many of the statements I see around here. Do we know its true that moving your business downtown helps with recruiting? I'm not so sure.
where's the St. Louis video? mistakenly posted Cleveland's twice 
also, this website is fun to compare "walkability" in the region. The article/link someone posted about downtown Cleveland applies to downtown St. Louis. Millennials do want a vibrant, walkable city. sadly, we have two with downtown clayton..
https://www.walkscore.com/score/200-n-b ... s-mo-63102
also, this website is fun to compare "walkability" in the region. The article/link someone posted about downtown Cleveland applies to downtown St. Louis. Millennials do want a vibrant, walkable city. sadly, we have two with downtown clayton..
https://www.walkscore.com/score/200-n-b ... s-mo-63102
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Double the fun! Let me try again for Cleveland:
and here is an earlier one:
and here is an earlier one:
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I think that's an excellent point. I know more white collar professionals who dream about buying acres of hunting land near their house in New Melle, than aspiring downtown loft-dwellers. I'm guessing the same is true of the CEOs who put their offices in Chesterfield or O'Fallon.audac1ty wrote: Yeah, I find myself generally in agreement with this. Without financial incentives for companies and a massive campaign to win "hearts and minds," I don't really see it ever becoming a priority again. I also see something of a bubble effect on this board where, because we all find it desirable, we assume most other people find the idea of working downtown desirable. We seem to take it as a given, with minimal factual evidence, that moving downtown will help companies recruit. Anecdotally, I know lots of professional, white collar people who prefer the suburban office park to urban form. There also seems to be conflicting data about which environment "millennials" prefer (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/thin ... ink-again/).
On the whole, I think its important for our region to have a vibrant CBD and to attract jobs to our urban core, but I also think that we shouldn't just assume as fact many of the statements I see around here. Do we know its true that moving your business downtown helps with recruiting? I'm not so sure.
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The issue is to what degree the central core/downtown is regaining ground rather than all of a sudden the suburbs reverting to prairie... that isn't happening in either Dallas or Detroit. Nationally there continues to be jobs sprawl but there also is a clear movement towards downtown gains. Results vary from city to city.
I think we see a bit of success here and it is not all bleak; the number of moves out of downtown for the suburbs have become rather rare in recent years (Northwestern appears to be an upcoming exception) and I wouldn't be surprised if in fact we've had more numerical wins downtown than losses post-recession. And I don't think there is any doubt that the office environment would have been much more positive if we would have landed the golden Centene.... that is the type of chance that doesn't come along often but can be a true gamechanger; unfortunately we lost that one. (And of course Centene received considerable incentives from Clayton to stay.) And of course we are doing okay, if not great, with tech start-ups.
I think with a bit better performance with internal growth and start-ups as well as just modest success with an occasional move or opening of a downtown presence for existing companies we'll be fine. We're on the cusp of more consistent and solid growth but just need a bit more hustle and a bit of luck.
I think we see a bit of success here and it is not all bleak; the number of moves out of downtown for the suburbs have become rather rare in recent years (Northwestern appears to be an upcoming exception) and I wouldn't be surprised if in fact we've had more numerical wins downtown than losses post-recession. And I don't think there is any doubt that the office environment would have been much more positive if we would have landed the golden Centene.... that is the type of chance that doesn't come along often but can be a true gamechanger; unfortunately we lost that one. (And of course Centene received considerable incentives from Clayton to stay.) And of course we are doing okay, if not great, with tech start-ups.
I think with a bit better performance with internal growth and start-ups as well as just modest success with an occasional move or opening of a downtown presence for existing companies we'll be fine. We're on the cusp of more consistent and solid growth but just need a bit more hustle and a bit of luck.
^ Let's not forget that Detroit's issues as city outside of the core are huge and dwarf St. Louis.
Its tough to compare, Most of the St. Louis regions companies who have excelled and expanded in recent years were already established in the county, from Edward Jones to Express, RGA, etc. I think the only real disappointment to the blog was WWT as of late. I think it was expressed that Centene will move forward on a second Clayton tower however surprised it hasn't happened already. Heck, St. Louis biz journals lead article from last week was the number of Fortune Five Hundred was the same after a decade but bigger. That is a plus
The big question on my end for at least the central corridor/city sake. Will CORTEX/Wexford go forward with first building on US Metals as spec? or will it be a couple of years of you tube pitches. In the meantime, Clayton CBD and City will lose out to West County/Chesterfield for the smaller leases until Montgomery and or Centene or CORTEX/Wexford can break ground and offer some space who maybe won't go downtown but like the idea of middle ground & some connectivity.
Its tough to compare, Most of the St. Louis regions companies who have excelled and expanded in recent years were already established in the county, from Edward Jones to Express, RGA, etc. I think the only real disappointment to the blog was WWT as of late. I think it was expressed that Centene will move forward on a second Clayton tower however surprised it hasn't happened already. Heck, St. Louis biz journals lead article from last week was the number of Fortune Five Hundred was the same after a decade but bigger. That is a plus
The big question on my end for at least the central corridor/city sake. Will CORTEX/Wexford go forward with first building on US Metals as spec? or will it be a couple of years of you tube pitches. In the meantime, Clayton CBD and City will lose out to West County/Chesterfield for the smaller leases until Montgomery and or Centene or CORTEX/Wexford can break ground and offer some space who maybe won't go downtown but like the idea of middle ground & some connectivity.
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There's no doubt about that.... I think Detroit has twice the challenge and twice the opportunity; a really strange place that is kind of a city laboratory. I'll try to track down a Detroit Slow Roll video that I think shows the Detroit attitude just about as best as can be done. It'll be interesting to see how far progress extends beyond the core there. It'll also be interesting to see how far progress can extend into North City here.dredger wrote:^ Let's not forget that Detroit's issues as city outside of the core are huge and dwarf St. Louis.
Edit: here is the Slow Roll video with drone... I'd love to see a come as you are slow roll like that through North City.
https://vimeo.com/motorcitydroneco/revi ... 2afe4d9a28
Slow Roll
http://www.slowroll.bike/
Coming from the Illinois side, maybe that's why I don't understand the whole city/suburb divide. I always read here about the competition between the city and the suburbs, but I just never really saw it. Pretty much everyone I know has a positive view of the city, visits it relatively often and not just for Cardinals games, and identifies proudly with it. Maybe they realize Illinois sucks and that we all have our own issues in some way or the other and therefore aren't as scared of it as some of our Missourah brethren.hebeters2 wrote:http://mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings