urbanSTL

Right now, I am downtown at the office staring at the park across from Union Station.

Currently, no homeless (thumbs up) or convenient coffee shops (thumbs down).

Carry on.

I have worked downtown since 2017, obviously most of 2020 was remote, but came back to the office in 2021Q1 and have been back since then.
Some things are better than they used to (the whole BPV area), but I'd say that there has been a very clear decline overall in amenities for non-tourists. 
We used to eat out often at restaurants on Washington Ave, the food court at the Met Plaza, etc. but most of the places we used to patronize are gone. In some cases they were replaced (mostly by worse options), but for most nothing has come up. We used to go out for lunch 2-3 times a week and now mostly eat inside in the cafeteria. 
Additionally, there has been a steady decline in available services: bank branches closing (BofA), DMV closing, etc. I guess it won't be long until they close the USPS on N 6th. I use it quite often but I'm almost always the only person there.

_nomad_ wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

SB in BH wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

^I seem to recall the City of Clayton, St. Charles and likely others literally loading them on buses and dropping them off at Keiner Plaza and/or NLEC. Maybe that's just apocryphal and never actually happened...

Also, I drove through Downtown via the I-70 detour last weekend (Saturday lunch time) and was astounded at how abandoned and destitute the whole area along Tucker seemed. Only foot traffic I saw were the drug addicts/homeless ambling around and sometimes literally standing in the middle of intersections. Trash was everywhere and all of the stoplights seemed to be on their weekday timers. I sat at Wash Ave./Tucker for what must have been two minutes, no other cars, just some guy tweaking in the middle of the road.  Maybe not indicative of the general situation down there, but as a long-time City resident, including a few years downtown, I'm beginning to sympathize with my normie friends/relatives in the 'burbs who think DT is indeed a complete *hole beyond redemption.

For what it's worth, Tucker is a poor place to judge pedestrian vibrancy of downtown as a whole, it's the street that the city has made most hostile to foot traffic and it shows in what establishments choose to front that thoroughfare. Many people will walk routes that take them along Tucker as little as possible. Tucker seems to be the city's best effort to suck as much life out of the neighborhood as they can.

Good point and was also true when I lived down there circa 2011-2015. Tucker sucks, which is ironic considering its namesake was probably the finest local politician this City's ever produced, at least in the 20th century to the present.

The reason this thread goes in circles is because the "state of downtown" seems to do likewise; the question is whether we're circling the drain or spiraling upward to new heights. I'm inclined to think its the latter, but its probably most accurate to say that the "good" parts of downtown have merely shifted, from north of Market, e.g., Wash Ave, to south of Market, e.g., BPV and City Park.

I travel a lot and definitely see a lot of cities with thriving downtowns in comparison to ours.  For the most part the comparisons are apples to oranges though, as these are large metropolitan area downtowns, or sunbelt downtowns with an influx of revenue and residents and lack of existing challenges.

I'd be curious to hear from others that have recently spent time in other rust-belt downtowns or metros with similar challenges, and how those compare to our own.  Cities that come to mind include Cincinnati, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Memphis, Kansas City, Little Rock, etc...  How do these downtowns compare to ours in foot traffic, retail, tourist traffic, walking infrastructure, driving infrastructure, building maintenance?

Downtown Restaurant week is returning this year in mid October

SB in BH wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

^I seem to recall the City of Clayton, St. Charles and likely others literally loading them on buses and dropping them off at Keiner Plaza and/or NLEC. Maybe that's just apocryphal and never actually happened...

Also, I drove through Downtown via the I-70 detour last weekend (Saturday lunch time) and was astounded at how abandoned and destitute the whole area along Tucker seemed. Only foot traffic I saw were the drug addicts/homeless ambling around and sometimes literally standing in the middle of intersections. Trash was everywhere and all of the stoplights seemed to be on their weekday timers. I sat at Wash Ave./Tucker for what must have been two minutes, no other cars, just some guy tweaking in the middle of the road.  Maybe not indicative of the general situation down there, but as a long-time City resident, including a few years downtown, I'm beginning to sympathize with my normie friends/relatives in the 'burbs who think DT is indeed a complete *hole beyond redemption.

It 100% happened.  I witnessed it regularly when I lived at 15th and Locust.  A few times a month a non-city police car would drop off a person or persons at the NLEC. 

Not to excuse nor minimize  what SB in BH witnessed on Tucker but is this any different from any other city?
I was in Houston recently and saw close to  to what SB in BH described  on Tucker on a somewhat major street in Houston. Can one go to other cities and see similar even worse?
Back to STL:  what can we do?

Tucker lane reduction and protected cycle track is going to bid soon

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 31, 2023

Tucker lane reduction and protected cycle track is going to bid soon

How many lanes is it being reduced to?

metzgda wrote: ↑

Aug 31, 2023

I travel a lot and definitely see a lot of cities with thriving downtowns in comparison to ours.  For the most part the comparisons are apples to oranges though, as these are large metropolitan area downtowns, or sunbelt downtowns with an influx of revenue and residents and lack of existing challenges.

I'd be curious to hear from others that have recently spent time in other rust-belt downtowns or metros with similar challenges, and how those compare to our own.  Cities that come to mind include Cincinnati, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Memphis, Kansas City, Little Rock, etc...  How do these downtowns compare to ours in foot traffic, retail, tourist traffic, walking infrastructure, driving infrastructure, building maintenance?

I haven't been to all of these but I'll opine on the downtowns of those I have

Little Rock: Can't really compare to STL as the whole metro area is only 750,000 people. It's more in line with Springfield, MO or Rockford, IL. Punches above it's weight--in part no doubt to being the state capitol. Their downtown is small and walkable for the most part between the Clinton Library and the State Capitol complex. 

Kansas City: DT KC seems to be doing quite well as of late though it wasn't long ago that there was little to no foot traffic on downtown streets there after 5 PM or on weekends. A lot of office jobs went to Overland Park back in the day and it still seems like a bit of a competing DT. Other than the WWI Museum most of their tourist attractions are south of downtown and there is little foot traffic between them. 

Memphis: DT is bustling in spots and really dead in others. Beale Street was previously a world unto itself but recent developments in the  South Main area have led to more foot traffic in that direction. North of Beale was looking pretty rough the last time I was there a few months ago. And Union Ave east of the Peadbody has a huge vacant lot that (I assume) is going to be developed but for now really stops the momentum of DT in it's tracks. 

Detroit: A lot of cool stuff going on there the last time I was there and I imagine it's only gotten better. Their challenge is a much bigger downtown that was built for a city of 1.8 million. 

Cincinnati: Seems to me a manageable downtown that was kept from sprawling back in the day by the big hills to it's north.  Over the Rhine is a really cool historic neighborhood that is basically a dozen blocks or so from the river and blends right into DT. Basically it's like if Soulard started at about Olive and 14th.  The edges of OTR are still pretty undeveloped though and you still see a fair amount of board up (or at least I did when I was there last fall). Then across the Ohio you have Newport and Covington, KY which you can walk to from downtown. I would love for us to have something similar on the IL side. 

Haven't been to DT Pittsburgh or Cleveland. 

Cincinnati, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Kansas City have clearly better/more active downtowns than St Louis in my opinion.
I have only been to Little Rock once and it seemed same or worse.
I have never been to either Memphis or Detroit so can't speak to those.

We clearly don’t have the best downtown but we don’t have the worst either specially how many businesses we’ve lost to the suburbs compared to those other cities. Think if Edward jones was still HQ In downtown amongst other companies. What downtown needs is a lot of street beautification modifications etc. our downtown has come a long ways and has a long ways to go but take it one day at a time. There’s junkies druggies drunks in every downtown and we really don’t have it that bad here. We really need to plant more street trees specially with summers getting that more hot & humid.


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I am in downtown KC very frequent and compared to STL they are making the rights decisions more rapidly then STL. The mindset of the people is just better and more “we are in this together” type then it is here. STL fragmentations sucks? I mean they are doing a real interstate LID project (makes STL’s laughable since it just connected the arch to downtown), free streetcar that I always see in great use, many new residential buildings downtown, and for some reason that population always feels younger and more ambitious in attitude. In general DT KC, in my opinion, is much more attractive then STL.

The one thing I dislike about KC is I do believe their park infrastructure sucks compared to STL.

St. Louis might not compete well against those peers when considering only Downtown but if we’re considering the general central corridor (Downtown to Clayton), St. Louis obliterates KC, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh.

IMO, the issue with Downtown St. Louis is it’s not really central to anything. It’s not the center of the regions population/jobs. It’s not the center of the city’s population/jobs. It’s not even a well connected to its surrounding neighborhoods. A majority of the region, including city residents, don’t care because downtown doesn’t impact their lives.

^ I think you summed it up really succinctly.  I am reminded of a recent visit to Columbus where German Village, Downtown and Short North just flow seamlessly together.  Even going across the Scioto River to Franklinton is almost the same.  Their downtown just seems part of the fabric of it's urban neighborhoods, not a separate thing. 

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Sep 01, 2023

St. Louis might not compete well against those peers when considering only Downtown but if we’re considering the general central corridor (Downtown to Clayton), St. Louis obliterates KC, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh.

IMO, the issue with Downtown St. Louis is it’s not really central to anything. It’s not the center of the regions population/jobs. It’s not the center of the city’s population/jobs. It’s not even a well connected to its surrounding neighborhoods. A majority of the region, including city residents, don’t care because downtown doesn’t impact their lives.

^ Totally agree!

30% of the region is east of downtown and another 40-42% to west in rest of city and in the county directly to the west.

As I mentioned over a few posts above a lot of things brought up here are actively being worked on and lead by GSLs downtown team, including major infrastructure improvements on Tucker, Washington, 4th and Broadway

Dedicated staff to focus on things to do, retail, restaurants and safety.

Downtown Restaurant week is back this year in October.

Partnership with Urban Land Institute to examine more uses for gateway mall.  

Rework on some Kiener plaza parts to make it more useful.

And major focus on getting the Railway Exchange done, because it’s seen a huge catalyst in connecting ballpark village and MX/Washington Ave. ballpark village and the bars around the Cupples area are a nightlife destination area for people 30 and under and it’s clear that isn’t most to you here

Milwaukee is a town that’s impressed me. Their downtown seemlessly connects to neighborhoods north and south whereas our Lafayette Square seems less connected to downtown, for example.

I’ll admit KC has a better downtown but I’d say our overall urban area is better. I’ve never seen any neighborhoods in KC like Tower Grove South, Shaw, etc. KC is basically a downtown plus suburbs without much middle of the road urban fabric.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Sep 01, 2023

30% of the region is east of downtown and another 40-42% to west in rest of city and in the county directly to the west.

As I mentioned over a few posts above a lot of things brought up here are actively being worked on and lead by GSLs downtown team, including major infrastructure improvements on Tucker, Washington, 4th and Broadway

Dedicated staff to focus on things to do, retail, restaurants and safety.

Downtown Restaurant week is back this year in October.

Partnership with Urban Land Institute to examine more uses for gateway mall.  

Rework on some Kiener plaza parts to make it more useful.

And major focus on getting the Railway Exchange done, because it’s seen a huge catalyst in connecting ballpark village and MX/Washington Ave.    ballpark village and the bars around the Cupples area are a nightlife destination area for people 30 and under and it’s clear that isn’t most to you here

Not to nitpick, but I don't think the work on Tucker will address the issues being brought up. While the protected cycle path will be nice to get around on (assuming it isn't constantly blocked), Tucker will still be a six lane stroad dividing downtown in half and I really doubt car traffic will be any slower, quieter, or safer. I haven't seen the other street proposals you mention, but I hope they do more to address and prioritize the pedestrian experience rather than maintaining service for through-traffic.

TalkinDev wrote: ↑

Sep 01, 2023

^ I think you summed it up really succinctly.  I am reminded of a recent visit to Columbus where German Village, Downtown and Short North just flow seamlessly together.  Even going across the Scioto River to Franklinton is almost the same.  Their downtown just seems part of the fabric of it's urban neighborhoods, not a separate thing. 

I completely agree with you.

But remember the rules here. The fact that St. Louis doesn't have the major state university campus and/or is not the state capital is no excuse for why St. Louis/downtown sucks and other cities are better.

dbInSouthCity wrote:30% of the region is east of downtown and another 40-42% to west in rest of city and in the county directly to the west.

As I mentioned over a few posts above a lot of things brought up here are actively being worked on and lead by GSLs downtown team, including major infrastructure improvements on Tucker, Washington, 4th and Broadway

Dedicated staff to focus on things to do, retail, restaurants and safety.

Downtown Restaurant week is back this year in October.

Partnership with Urban Land Institute to examine more uses for gateway mall.  

Rework on some Kiener plaza parts to make it more useful.

And major focus on getting the Railway Exchange done, because it’s seen a huge catalyst in connecting ballpark village and MX/Washington Ave. ballpark village and the bars around the Cupples area are a nightlife destination area for people 30 and under and it’s clear that isn’t most to you here

Why does ULI need to be involved to examine more options? I can tell you what’s needed or just hire OJB everything they touch is gold when it comes to urban park infrastructure.

As for kiener MVVA should’ve never been selected. You pay for the expertise of a firm and past experience and to me they weren’t the right option. Only got selected because they were doing the arch grounds stuff as well which also underachieved but that one wasn’t as much their fault.