urbanSTL

I recently visited downtown after a year's hiatus and was genuinely disheartened by the state of things. The infrastructure, especially the traffic lights, desperately needs attention. Moreover, the tangible decline is accentuated by the closing down of cherished businesses. I was saddened to see the former Beve Cafe and now Park Avenue Coffee on 10th street shut their doors. Bailey's, too, is on its way out. I have fond memories, especially of Dave taking over the Chocolate Bar in Lafayette Square and the unparalleled wine selection of 33 Wine Bar.
Beyond businesses, the societal issues are impossible to overlook. On my walk, I was confronted by the harsh realities of seeing multiple people overdosing. Homeless encampments were not hidden in alleyways but prominently set up, even on the steps of City Hall. It's distressing to see such scenes in areas that once thrived.
The area's overall upkeep is waning. There's a glaring need for simple maintenance tasks like road paving and foundational infrastructure needs.
On the brighter side, landmarks like the 21 C Museum and the new soccer stadium shine as examples of downtown's potential. Yet, juxtaposed against the stark societal issues and infrastructure decay, their brilliance seems somewhat dimmed.
Having lived in downtown for 15 years and experienced various cities worldwide for over a decade, my observations come from a place of deep affection and concern. Places like Columbus, Ohio, which I find comparable to our downtown, are thriving, and even Cleveland seems to be doing better.
It's a heavy heart that writes this, but the downtown region, once bustling and vibrant, is undeniably deteriorating.

prophett wrote: ↑

Aug 29, 2023

I recently visited downtown after a year's hiatus and was genuinely disheartened by the state of things. The infrastructure, especially the traffic lights, desperately needs attention. Moreover, the tangible decline is accentuated by the closing down of cherished businesses. I was saddened to see the former Beve Cafe and now Park Avenue Coffee on 10th street shut their doors. Bailey's, too, is on its way out. I have fond memories, especially of Dave taking over the Chocolate Bar in Lafayette Square and the unparalleled wine selection of 33 Wine Bar.
Beyond businesses, the societal issues are impossible to overlook. On my walk, I was confronted by the harsh realities of seeing multiple people overdosing. Homeless encampments were not hidden in alleyways but prominently set up, even on the steps of City Hall. It's distressing to see such scenes in areas that once thrived.
The area's overall upkeep is waning. There's a glaring need for simple maintenance tasks like road paving and foundational infrastructure needs.
On the brighter side, landmarks like the 21 C Museum and the new soccer stadium shine as examples of downtown's potential. Yet, juxtaposed against the stark societal issues and infrastructure decay, their brilliance seems somewhat dimmed.
Having lived in downtown for 15 years and experienced various cities worldwide for over a decade, my observations come from a place of deep affection and concern. Places like Columbus, Ohio, which I find comparable to our downtown, are thriving, and even Cleveland seems to be doing better.
It's a heavy heart that writes this, but the downtown region, once bustling and vibrant, is undeniably deteriorating.

I agree, I was in downtown last year and it was horrible. The comment about infrastructure is something I also noticed. Compared to downtowns of similar sized regions it looks to be severely neglected and underfunded.

I was actually more impressed with the development that was happening in other areas of the central corridor and near southside. It just seems that downtown is such an Island, which is sad because the architecture and history is amazing.

goat314 wrote: ↑

Aug 29, 2023

prophett wrote: ↑

Aug 29, 2023

I recently visited downtown after a year's hiatus and was genuinely disheartened by the state of things. The infrastructure, especially the traffic lights, desperately needs attention. Moreover, the tangible decline is accentuated by the closing down of cherished businesses. I was saddened to see the former Beve Cafe and now Park Avenue Coffee on 10th street shut their doors. Bailey's, too, is on its way out. I have fond memories, especially of Dave taking over the Chocolate Bar in Lafayette Square and the unparalleled wine selection of 33 Wine Bar.
Beyond businesses, the societal issues are impossible to overlook. On my walk, I was confronted by the harsh realities of seeing multiple people overdosing. Homeless encampments were not hidden in alleyways but prominently set up, even on the steps of City Hall. It's distressing to see such scenes in areas that once thrived.
The area's overall upkeep is waning. There's a glaring need for simple maintenance tasks like road paving and foundational infrastructure needs.
On the brighter side, landmarks like the 21 C Museum and the new soccer stadium shine as examples of downtown's potential. Yet, juxtaposed against the stark societal issues and infrastructure decay, their brilliance seems somewhat dimmed.
Having lived in downtown for 15 years and experienced various cities worldwide for over a decade, my observations come from a place of deep affection and concern. Places like Columbus, Ohio, which I find comparable to our downtown, are thriving, and even Cleveland seems to be doing better.
It's a heavy heart that writes this, but the downtown region, once bustling and vibrant, is undeniably deteriorating.

I agree, I was in downtown last year and it was horrible. The comment about infrastructure is something I also noticed. Compared to downtowns of similar sized regions it looks to be severely neglected and underfunded.

I was actually more impressed with the development that was happening in other areas of the central corridor and near southside. It just seems that downtown is such an Island, which is sad because the architecture and history is amazing.

Horrible and deteriorating might be little harsh. I work in downtown 3 days a week and I believe we need more office tenants and mandate to return to office at least 3 days a week. We are missing restaurants and foot traffic.

I don’t want to sound like an unsympathetic jerk but something needs to be done about the addicts by the firefighters memorial… horrible impression for those attending events and it’s right in front of SLU law.


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^ City doesn’t have many options. I talked to the City’s new director of human services and he said these people aren’t homeless, they are addicts. The city cannot force them into rehab or out of a public park during the day.  He does visit with staff often to try to convince people about different options and works with SLMPD when it comes to drug sales but SLMPD has told me they cannot do much since whats sold there is K2 that has on ingredient changed that makes it not illegal under state law

That’s disappointing, things can’t stay like this. Surely there is a lower profile place where addicts can hang out and get high. I wish they would at least get them a trash can and enforce littering laws


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Re: infrastructure

There are 4 major N/S roads getting major makeovers; Tucker, 7th, 4th and Broadway. Last 2 are a joint project lead by GSL, it’s a $11m project that’s also applying for partial fed $ at EWGateway

Although we have gotten some nice wins downtown in recent years, it clearly feels like a consistent deterioration for downtown as a whole.

dweebe wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

dtgwvc wrote: ↑

Aug 29, 2023

I don’t want to sound like an unsympathetic jerk but something needs to be done about the addicts by the firefighters memorial… horrible impression for those attending events and it’s right in front of SLU law.


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This sh*t has moved up and down Market over the last couple of decades. 

Back in the late 90s and 00's they used to be out in front of the Post Office and Union Station. Back when the convenience store was in Union Station they'd buy cheap pints of cheap liquor all day. Either that or they'd go to the old 7-11 which wouldn't start beer sales until 11am. If you went to the 7-11 around 10:45 they'd be lined up waiting. Then they were hanging around in front of Stifel but moved to their current party spot a few years ago.

Some might be homeless but you see plenty of people drive up and hang out.

I know the firemen are pissed because of the memorial there and have tried to clean things up: but it always fails.

I guess we're just screwed.

I fully admit this is anecdotal, but our company of ~30 people was in 555 Washington for many years.  30 people were there 5 days/week for 8 hours/day.  There was crime and urban BS but employees didn't seem too affected by it.  For some years, the MX sh*t was relatively bustling so it was a great place to have an office.

In Covid, we moved to a building across from Union Station.  Other than Schlafly and Maggie O's, I don't think there are any places to grab a quick lunch.  No coffee shops either.  And, there's often a homeless encampment in the plaza directly north of Union Station. To me, a large appeal of working in a downtown is walking to/from lunch/coffee.  We don't have that now.  So, in many ways, it's no different from having an office way out in the suburbs but we have the urban BS added on to it.

My company is WFH 4/5 days (soon to be 3/5 days), so few employees come in and when they do, employees are more vocal about the crime.  Some employees say crime is preventing them from coming downtown and some have asked if we can move the office to a safer place. In large part, these are not cowardly Wentzville-type folks and many *want* office life back. 

I've been a downtown booster for more than 20 years, but What do you say to all of that?  Talk them out of feeling scared? Point to stats that show crime is "down"?  "Doom loops" are real.

have any of them been victim's of any crime in downtown?  do they know crime from 7 am to 7pm is largely non existent?


i wondered where Weber Shandwick moved too. My wifes PR firm is at 555 so i go in often, she just re upped her lease for her 8-12 people that come in regularly. She walks since we live 8 blocks away. 

So many of the restaurants downtown are either in hotels or, as in the case of Union Station, solely tourist-oriented.

I'm sure some of our hotel/touristy restaurants are fine, but as a general baseline, those types of places have very little incentive to be competitive in terms of price or quality.

I was eyeing the taplist at Hotel St. Louis for drinks the other day. All beers were ~50% more than they'd be at a regular downtown bar. I don't particularly want to find out which hotel/tourist restaurants are not a total ripoff.

Syberg's isn't bad, but some of their prices ($18 for 10 wings?), policies (automatic 15% service charge for everybody after 6pm) and past actions w/r/t to legal action on COVID policies are tough to support.

It sometimes feels like every place downtown is in the business of extracting every last cent from tourists and sports fans. The new Billy's on Broadway is nice, but $5 for a Busch draft plus tax and you're talking about a multiplier of like 6x from store price, which is about twice as high as most bars.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

have any of them been victim's of any crime in downtown?  do they know crime from 7 am to 7pm is largely non existent?


i wondered where Weber Shandwick moved too. My wifes PR firm is at 555 so i go in often, she just re upped her lease for her 8-12 people that come in regularly. She walks since we live 8 blocks away. 

DB chiming in on anything related to DT crime?  perhaps the most predictable thing in the world. LOL

Yes, some co-workers have been victims of downtown crime.  There were literal murders outside 555.  Is it common? absolutely not. rare even.  Nonetheless, does it chip at a person's overall sense of safety, yes?

What do you want me to do, man?  Create a PPT that details downtown crime trends to try to convince them their feelings are wrong and that they are dumb?

I think the “doom loop” scenario is very real for downtown. Although overall crime is down, and most of it doesn’t occur during the day, there have been some very high profile crimes that have happened in broad daylight and late at night. That sticks with people. Seeing drug addicts in every park is very visceral. It scares people who aren’t used to that even if they don’t often cause a disturbance.

Secondarily, there just isn’t much a reason for people to go downtown outside of sporting events.

I work downtown and most of my coworkers would greatly prefer to be out in the suburbs. I think their biggest complaint is just the vast emptiness of any foot traffic. It feels almost dystopian.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

btw you can also walk to lunch to the Pitch, Trainshed, Soda Fountain, Sybergs, Brick River, London Tea Room, Lombardo's 

man, you HAVE to be on Downtown STL's payroll, dude.  LOL

Few, if any, of those places are quick like the many places that were within short blocks of 555.  That's my point - a quick place to grab lunch. Doesn't exist too much by our current office. Most people don't have time for a 90-min trip inclusive of walking to/from, sitting down, waiting, eating, etc. 

and a quick coffee? I don't think it exists.

To be sure, I am an *ally* here.  If moving offices comes up, I'll strongly make the case for staying downtown.

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

I work downtown and most of my coworkers would greatly prefer to be out in the suburbs. I think their biggest complaint is just the vast emptiness of any foot traffic. It feels almost dystopian.

Do they know what irony is?

Besides sports, you can also come to a casino, music concerts, comedy shows, best Cuban sandwich in the region, a blues museum, events at the arch, union station, city musuem, Campbell house, 21c museum, roof top pools and bars, restaurants,

soulardx wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

btw you can also walk to lunch to the Pitch, Trainshed, Soda Fountain, Sybergs, Brick River, London Tea Room, Lombardo's 

Few, if any, of those places are quick like the many places that were within short blocks of 555.  That's my point - a quick place to grab lunch. Doesn't exist too much by our current office. Most people don't have time for a 90-min trip inclusive of walking to/from, sitting down, waiting, eating, etc. 

and a quick coffee? I don't think it exists.

I will have to agree with you. I work on Broadway street and there is no place to get a quick lunch in a stone's throw. Only bustling place during lunch is Salt + Smoke and BPV. There's literally nothing else in that vicinity for a quick bite.

Everytime I read posts in this thread:

dbInSouthCity wrote:

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

I work downtown and most of my coworkers would greatly prefer to be out in the suburbs. I think their biggest complaint is just the vast emptiness of any foot traffic. It feels almost dystopian.

Do they know what irony is?

Besides sports, you can also come to a casino, music concerts, comedy shows, best Cuban sandwich in the region, a blues museum, events at the arch, union station, city musuem, Campbell house, 21c museum, roof top pools and bars, restaurants,

A lack of foot traffic isn’t dystopian in a suburban setting, it’s the norm. When that happens in a downtown core, it’s highly noticeable.

And yeah, you’ll get people downtown for sports and shows, but most of that other stuff are attractions for out of town tourists, not locals living outside of downtown.

Only murder in the last decade that I recall near 555 is at Broadway and a women was murdered…..3 weeks later we find out she was in the car with her husband and her shot and killed her after an argument. But the news never told you that part, you just heard “woman shot and killed in downtown, and now we go to Dave Murray for the 7 day weather forecast”

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Aug 30, 2023

Only murder in the last decade that I recall near 555 is at Broadway and a women was murdered…..3 weeks later we find out she was in the car with her husband and her shot and killed her after an argument.  But the news never told you that part, you just heard “woman shot and killed in downtown, and now we go to Dave Murray for the 7 day weather forecast”

some homeless guys got into it and one killed the other right at 6th and Washington. over cheetos. outside our doors.  

unsure exactly when it happened, but we have some long-time employees and people don't forget murders. 

Then, when our current office has a homeless encampment in front of it, people are reminded "hey, remember when the one homeless guy murder the other homeless guy"  each time they go to/from the office.