urbanSTL

^ True. But I also think the 'customer' is being underestimated in StL. And I'm always (though now less so) to here a St. Louisian espouse that all of StL problems (schools, etc.) and projects (TBD) can and SHOULD be done by St. Louisians. This strikes me as just weird. Is every building in New York designed by a New Yorker, is Chicago exclusively Chicagoans?

jambalaya has been anti-TBD since he started posting on this thread...so his points now are not surprising.



But your point about the project owning you if they're asking for public funds is off the mark. It's not incorrect, just off the mark. If a developer is asking for public assistance through a TIF, they should show your their plans. But this project hasn't broken ground yet, and looks like they won't be breaking ground any time in the near future, so I'm not sure why they owe you anything now. If they are redesigning, fine. Redesign, and I'm sure we'll see the new plans when they are ready to submit them for approval.



I do agree that this project is on life support. I don't think it's dead, but it needs some serious help to get any momentum going. Right now, it's got none. It's being left behind by so many other projects going on. I, personally, am more concerned with the BPV and Chouteaus Landing getting built, than I am the Bottle District.



And I liked the renderings Libeskind did, I think they created a signature northern end of the skyline, and a unique setting. I do think it was a little closed off, and should have opened up more than it did...but it was a very unique design. Something that STL needs badly.

I wish I hadn't even made my two line post...I just commented that I like the proposed Architect! A page later...

Grover wrote:^ True. But I also think the 'customer' is being underestimated in StL. And I'm always (though now less so) to here a St. Louisian espouse that all of StL problems (schools, etc.) and projects (TBD) can and SHOULD be done by St. Louisians. This strikes me as just weird. Is every building in New York designed by a New Yorker, is Chicago exclusively Chicagoans?

I am in some agreement here. As can be seen just in this thread of "architecture enthusiasts", opinion varies greatly.

stlmike wrote:With all due respect, I don't think anyone said that anyone is great by virtue of being from New York City. A lot of great architects and artists do live there, and if we can import some good stuff from there I don't see a problem with it.



... ...But it would be like calling two Pollock paintings the same because they are both using the same technique.

I agree with you. I don't care that he is (now) from NYC, I just like his work.



It is a poor argument that someone's work is all the same...like you pointed out. How many architects/designers/musicians REALLY change their work. They are people and their work uses common themes, moods, etc. in their life.





Jambalaya- How much of Libeskind's work have you seen in person or read? I just wondered, because you clearly don't like him, which is fine, but I don't know how you can make your "flavor of the month" argument seriously. I met him once and have seen some of his work in person and appreciate it. I think StL could use something different. What StL architect do you propose build the TBD? That is not sarcastic, it is a point for discussion. Looking around the city, I don't see any locals building on that scale that don;t play it safe.

I'd love to see some local group (The Gateway Foundation, maybe?) step up and do what Cummins Engine Foundation has done for Columbus, Indiana. Basically, they pay the architecture fees for new public and commercial buildings, with the stipulation that prominent, high-profile architects do the designs. This program has been going on for half a century, and as a result, Columbus is internationally famous for its excellent architecture.

^ Very interesting. For more info, take the jump here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus%2 ... re_.26_Art

The Columbus Indiana model has worked very well - it is an awesome city! Columbus is referred to as the "Landmark on the Prarie" due in large part to the high standard of architectural design they pursue for major public and private projects. The attitude is "Columbus faithfully preserves its historical monuments and continues to build for its future." This would be a fantastic model if you could remove the politics in St. Louis that tend to screw-up the decision making process.



I am all for bringing in a design/planning expert for TBD - my problem is the choice of Libeskind. If you want a true expert for urban planning/design why don't you start with KPF instead of someone who is simply a glorified Gehry knock-off? This highlights my point dealing with the bad decisions the project has made under present ownership. I hope this project succeeds for several reasons - what may come across as complaints are more my public lamenting the poor planning and even more horrible decisions made by TBD developers. I know what fantastic potential this project has and I fear it will never be realized - that is my frustration.

I'm having trouble (like many others, I suspect) following all the twists and turns of this thread, but it's good to see a healthy debate on downtown's architecture.



I don't agree with everything that Jambalaya has said. But let's cut him some slack. Jambalaya is not anti-TBD; on the contrary, Jambalaya has made it clear that he wants TBD to succeed. It's just that he's skeptical about the ability of the project's backers to deliver on their promises. Where's the problem with that? A healthy degree of skepticism should in theory result in a better-designed, better-utilized project. Jambalaya, you've earned my respect.

Columbus is a great examle - and one that I believe we're not too far from realizing. They do have great buildings - especially for a town its size, but many, if not most, of the designs seen there can be seen here. What we don't have is a systematic approach to market what we have, or a mechanism for promoting future landmark-status buildings. But for all that Columbus has, they weren't able to have any impact on the design of their Wal-Mart and other big boxes. They haven't succeeded everywhere, and neither need we - we simply need to promote what we have and make a concerted effort to accomplish more.



A couple articles on Columbus:

http://www.metropolismag.com/cda/story.php?artid=2122

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus,_Indiana

http://www.columbusarchives.org/

Just found this on the post website. I don't think that I can get excited over this again.





Dan McGuire takes over development of the Bottle District

By Joe Whittington

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

03/06/2007



Business columnist Joe Whittington

(Post-Dispatch)



Dan McGuire says he's going to put the fizz back in the Bottle District.



Many say the proposed $290 million complex of restaurants, entertainment, housing and offices just north of the Edward Jones Dome is too flat to bring back.



The last developer, the Ghazi Co. of Charlotte, N.C., has exited the scene, and McGuire has taken over the developer's role.



"It'll be more of a go now without Ghazi," said the president of McGuire Moving & Storage Co. "They (Ghazi) fell short on financing, and we've decided to do it ourselves.

"We've put together a joint venture group, and will have some announcements on it in the next two weeks. We've got some things finalized and want people to know this time it is for real, and this time it's a go."



"He has no comment," founder Afshin Ghazi's secretary said when told the Post-Dispatch was calling. "He will not talk to you right now."



Even a person in the mayor's office has told friends the project, which received the city's approval for $51 million in tax increment financing, is dead.



"Everybody I know except Dan McGuire says the thing is dead," said developer Kevin McGowan. "But Dan's a tenacious guy, and he won't give up."



McGowan pointed out that "this is the third or fourth development team on the project," and the economic climate has changed dramatically.



"Dan has a few more hurdles in front of him than a year and a half ago. But, the ground only gets more valuable as the casino (Pinnacle's Lumiére Place) goes up."

Well, I certainly think something will happen here with the casino and other development in the area. I hope that Dan can pull together a quality development.

So I can safely assume that my Rams tailgating parking will be safe this season.

And quite possibly the next season.

ntbpo wrote:
"We've put together a joint venture group, and will have some announcements on it in the next two weeks. We've got some things finalized and want people to know this time it is for real, and this time it's a go."

Skyscrapers or bust.

I'm going to go ahead and consider this thing dead until I see construction cranes...I have a feeling I am safe in this assumption.

They have put a couple news items on the website - the first in almost two years. I'd say the project isn't living and breathing, but it's not six-feet under yet either.

I'd say the project isn't living and breathing, but it's not six-feet under yet either.

In the words of a former St Louisan: "Like a patient etherized upon a table"

The real question is are they going to use the existing architectural work (any of the versions) or are they going to get new ones done since the development climate has changed?



If they go for new plans, don't expect anything sexy to come out of this until late 2008.

In the words of a famous Missourian "I come from a State that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and democrats and froty eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me, I am from Missouri and you have got to Show Me"



It may not be totally dead, but I'll believe it when I see it...this has been going on since about a year before ballpark villiage was in the works...ballpark villiage will break ground in the next month...this is not even on the drawing board yet

ballpark villiage will break ground in the next month

Actually, the Bottle District did break ground about a year ago. Unfortunately, the hole dug by the commemorative shovel is all the progress it has made.

Perhaps McGuire could sell those "commemorative shovels" on ebay and raise some badly needed cash.

Heck, at this point, it would make more sense to sell cups of dirt to get a jump start on the excavation of the site. Little by little, I say.

They have assembled and directly control a major (and, by now well-graded) site directly across the street from the Convention Center and a $500 million (and rising) investment by Pinnacle.



That's still pretty good work.

The collection of property is great - 16 acres right across from a major traffic generator like a sports complex and convention center is very impressive - but if you don't do the right thing with this property it's sort of like rooting for the Cubs (great expectations every spring training followed by greater disappointment every fall).