urbanSTL

Jambo wrote:Hey this link appeared in another thread but I feel it needs a place here because of the discussion of the TBD:



Signs of life in St. Louis downtown

Just north of the Edward Jones Dome and along I-70 is the 17-acre area known as The Bottle District, site of another major development.



A large green bottle-shaped sign advertising Vess soda, a St. Louis-made product, is the most famous landmark of an area with a long tradition for brewing and bottling companies. The district is taking its name from thousands of distinctive bottles unearthed as work began on the $300 million complex.



Three brothers, who are the third-generation owners of St. Louis-based McGuire Moving and Storage, are working to transform the property.



Dan McGuire was in Atlanta when the St. Louis Rams won the 2000 Super Bowl and liked the energy there. He began to wonder why something similar couldn't be done in his city. His project has changed course along the way, and parted ways with an outside developer, but he remains committed to it. Plans call for an eight-screen movie theater, as many as six restaurants, an upscale bowling alley and martini bar, a park and residential development.



Demolition has already taken place along five blocks. McGuire said renovation to two existing buildings could begin this spring, with all the work taking about two years.



St. Louis-based Forum Studio is the architect, though McGuire said talks continue with architect Daniel Libeskind, the ground zero master planner who also designed a new wing for the Denver Museum of Art and the Jewish Museum in Berlin, about designing something for the district. The overall look of the district has not been finalized.

This is all the same marketing material we have heard from this project for the past 2 years. I know for a fact that Leibeskind has not touched this project for well over 12 months and Forum and Clayco even removed it from their own websites. It is time to fish or cut bait - please bundle up and sell this parcel of land to someone who has the vision and ability to create the proper development at this location .....or grow a pair and do it yourself.

^^^Who's going to give the bad news to Mayor Slay??



http://www.mayorslay.com/news/display.asp?prID=580

^ This story is rediculous. Did the reporter take a story from 2005 and recycle it? The Bottle District hasn't made a noise for a long time. I'm not saying that nothing is going on, but the 'latest news' on the website is nearly two years old. This is hardly a project that sould be cited.

I know the project is dead, and you all know the project is dead, but if STL can look serious in a national article posted in "exotic" costal places like Boston, Washington, Cali etc... that’s fine with me. If we had just mentioned two projects (especially when its a Casino)- hey we got lucky - but if a city (the size of STL) can report 3 major entertainment districts at once - it makes us look like we are on a true boom (which some might say we are on).

We haven't heard anything about the bottle district being DEAD... (just evidence of it like NO news from anyone in a LONG time) so until the cornier says "its dead" I still say there may be some fruition -- let them report it and make STL look good. Anyone in Boston or DC who would really care already knows or could find out real quick (the apparent truth about the bottle district). I don't want to "lie - but its not lying if its not dead.

I think there are enough REAL projects in downtown St. Louis that can be presented and discussed - we do not need to PRETEND that this sack of road kill has a heart beat. TBD campus is still viable and the idea is sound, it just takes a developer with the proper vision and enough cash to do something beyond some full color renderings. Please sell this property to someone who knows what they are doing. BTW, TBD website has been revised to eliminate their development consultants (Taffer Dynamics) and Brian Ulione (their main leasing agent) - I'm not sure if they were dismissed or if they finally saw "smoke in the cockpit" for this project. It is a real shame, because this project started with such promise and they kept diluting a great idea until we have the cadaver you see today. I am still hoping for the appropriate development to happen on this site, but I am afraid TBD has flatlined.

I still think Pinnacle & Ballpark Village took the steam out of TBD. What is the niche market TBD is seeking that Pinnacle & Ballpark Village won't provide? We need more people downtown first before the TBD area is viable unless they build it out slowly... Patience people, patience...

^I don't know any more about this project than I read in the newspaper, but i-8 makes a good point. If you already own the site and you won't be first to the market anyway, why not wait and see how the market receives the new projects and then build "the next new thing"?

Since the initial window of opportunity has closed on TBD this is their only option - one of support instead of being a market leader. If is a real shame because they had the potential of engaging a portion of downtown that is typically ignored by everyone (except the 8 Sundays a year you are looking to tailgate before a Rams game). It is a real opportunity lost.

jambalaya wrote:Since the initial window of opportunity has closed on TBD this is their only option - one of support instead of being a market leader. If is a real shame because they had the potential of engaging a portion of downtown that is typically ignored by everyone (except the 8 Sundays a year you are looking to tailgate before a Rams game). It is a real opportunity lost.

What support are you talking about? The only support is the lack of market support for the TBD currently. I know you're excited about TBD but as was previously scoped, it really is wishful thinking at this point.



Also, that portion of downtown is hardly ignored. Look across the street and see the billion dollar Pinnacle attraction. Seriously now, what in the hell does TBD have to offer that Pinnacle doesn't already? As an aside, sure would be nice to have the proposed lid there for easier access to Pinnacle and the arch grounds. What's the status on that?



From: http://www.pinnaclestlouis.com/



PROJECT HIGHLIGHTS

- $4 million Community Aquatic Center

- 100-room hotel

- Full-service spa and salon

- 280,000 square-foot retail center

- Indoor ice rink

- Multiplex movie theater

- Boutique bowling alley

- Night club

- Public park

- Athletic fields

- Hatch-shell stage

- Pedestrian/biking path along Mississippi River

- 5,200 parking garage space

Haven't seen that Pinnacle site before...thanks for posting.



However, you seem to imply that the project aspects you list are part of the Lumiere Place property - when in fact, what is listed describes the Lemay (River City) Casino. The only entertainment/retail/restaurants I see listed under the downtown property are a few casino-restaurants. I know there will be more down the line - but things like the hotel deal with Four Seasons isn't even a done deal yet.

innov8ion wrote:

jambalaya wrote:Since the initial window of opportunity has closed on TBD this is their only option - one of support instead of being a market leader. If is a real shame because they had the potential of engaging a portion of downtown that is typically ignored by everyone (except the 8 Sundays a year you are looking to tailgate before a Rams game). It is a real opportunity lost.

What support are you talking about? The only support is the lack of market support for the TBD currently. I know you're excited about TBD but as was previously scoped, it really is wishful thinking at this point.



Also, that portion of downtown is hardly ignored. Look across the street and see the billion dollar Pinnacle attraction. Seriously now, what in the hell does TBD have to offer that Pinnacle doesn't already? As an aside, sure would be nice to have the proposed lid there for easier access to Pinnacle and the arch grounds. What's the status on that?



From: http://www.pinnaclestlouis.com/



PROJECT HIGHLIGHTS

- $4 million Community Aquatic Center

- 100-room hotel

- Full-service spa and salon

- 280,000 square-foot retail center

- Indoor ice rink

- Multiplex movie theater

- Boutique bowling alley

- Night club

- Public park

- Athletic fields

- Hatch-shell stage

- Pedestrian/biking path along Mississippi River

- 5,200 parking garage space

I think you missed my point. With TBD missing their window of opportunity to provide an urban entertainment district, it reduces their develop potential to a supporting role (supporting the other active and legitimate urban entertainment developments - BPV and Pinnacle). Support for TBD has never been questioned - since it was greeted with a $51.3 million dollar TIF district. But the inability of the developers to make appropriate and timely decisions has been the Achilles heel of this project. IMO TBD is on life-support in the best case scenario and stone cold dead in a realistic scenario. It is hard to run forward when the decision-makers for this project keep shooting themselves in the feet. BPV and Pinnacle will be built and the developers who have been dangling TBD out there for 2 years will sit there and wonder what could have been (as there property is used for Rams tail-gaiters and parking for the AutoShow and the monster truck rallies at the Dome).

I didn't miss your point. You say that TBD missed the boat and I agree. I do believe you aren't listening, however.



Support for TBD has never been questioned? I and many others would question it now. $51 million of public money shouldn't be thrown at this project because it is clearly unsustainable at this time. The downtown market is/will be saturated by Pinnacle and the BPV. Talk to me in 5 years or so when hopefully we have enough people to support whatever would go on that land....



Urban development isn't a race. Anyway, I won't repeat myself any longer as we appear to be talking in circles...

No, you are missing my point. I was stating that instead of a lead role TBD would be relegated to a supporting role. I agree with you concerning the public money not being thrown at this project as well. We can move on now. Thanks.

I am a big fan of Libeskind's work, so I'm happy to know he is still in TBD plans at this point. It would be nice to see some world class architecture being built here.

I'm not really a Libeskind fan, but I would welcome a few buildings of his design - I don't know what he's done with residential, but wouldn't it be cool for him (and the city) to do a mid-rise residential project? I just don't think retail will make it north of the dome, not with Wash Ave, other vacancies, BPV, Chouteau's Landing, etc. all open for development.

I wish what ArchCity provided was true. Who exactly are you speaking with at TBD - the marketing guy (what else is he going to tell you - he's the marketing guy). If TBD has anything of value (not re-hashed markering garbage from 2 year ago) bring it to the public. If not, let this project rest in peace and do us all a favor and sell you property to someone who can actually pull the trigger on a project of this scale. And trying to dangle Libeskind out there like that is some incentive to jump back on the bandwagon - forget it. Libeskind is so overrated as a planner and an architect. If you think Libeskind loves St. Louis ask yourself this question - why did he provide us with a copy of his Freedom Tower project instead of truly designing something for downtown St. Louis. Libeskind is a flavor of the month - this city is loaded with gifted architects and planners - why not use someone who has a personal interest and attachment to the city instead of using some east-coast architect simply for his name (this is such a shallow attempt to try to pump some interest back in this project). If you have anything of substance all I ask is that you provide something to for us to view. Thank you.

With all the ups and downs of this project, it was only natural to be critical. However, if they say it's a go then I'm sure we all wish it well and hope for the best. I hope BPV will complement the neighborhood instead of merely duplicating what its next door neighbor Pinnacle will have.



And hooray for Libeskind. If anything, TBD may now have a niche as an architecturally unique development.



Until then.....patiently waiting...

ArchCity - you seemed to do a pretty good job at being rude, even though you restrained yourself (thanks for the personal restraint). I disagree with you 100% - if any project is pursuing public money they do owe me and every other St. Louisan a lot more information than they are providing. You want $51 million dollars in TIF financing - show me why you deserve it. I would agree with you if this project was 100% privately financed then the developer can do whatever they wish, but as soon as they put their hand out for some public assistance then I think it is their obligation to provide project details - so do it.



I did read that the project is being redesigned (how many times is this now...I think at least 4 and probably 5). I understand how projects ebb and flow through the planning and design process - I do this for a living - but this is ridiculous. Subtle changes are one thing, but to experience the complete overhauls and radical changes this project has been through can only point to the fact that the development people at the top are either complete novices or not very bright (or a combination of the two).



And to address your complaint about St. Louis architects - the developers in town typically pursue the cheapest "sweatshop" firms that are more drafting services and provide very little, to no design service. They go to the low-ball firm and get a level of service aligned with the fee they are paying. It is not a "hillbilly" attitude when you know the level of interest and passion you feel about your city cannot possibly be matched by someone like Daniel Libeskind. I would be all for bringing in an outside architect who was truly an "expert" (I had an opportunity to work with Tadao Ando on a project, so I know about working with world class architects and Libeskind is not one). Libeskind is not an expert in any of the mentioned building types and his style is very limiting anyway (he is more successful with museums). Why don't you asked why he was dismissed from the Freedom Tower project - one of the largest urban projects of our time, he wins the competition and is booted off the project soon after. I guess that question would not be asked because "he must be great, he's an architect from New York City" - you ask me...that is the hillbilly attitude. Since you mentioned carbon copies in your last post - I hope you like them because that is what Libeskind provided TBD the last time. Your opinion of St. Louis architects is incorrect and without merit - you should take your own advice and do some research before you throw the design profeesional of this city under the bus.

I guess that question would not be asked because "he must be great, he's an architect from New York City" - you ask me...that is the hillbilly attitude. Since you mentioned carbon copies in your last post - I hope you like them because that is what Libeskind provided TBD the last time.

With all due respect, I don't think anyone said that anyone is great by virtue of being from New York City. A lot of great architects and artists do live there, and if we can import some good stuff from there I don't see a problem with it.



I don't know why you are so touchy about Libeskind. I don't think that the Bottle District design in any way resembles the Freedom Tower. It does have the same material design and makes use of the broken structure theory, I'll give you that. But it would be like calling two Pollock paintings the same because they are both using the same technique. I am in no way trying to compare the greatness of the two, but such a judgment would be similar as the structures, details, and form of the Bottle District renderings were all very different from the Freedom Tower, though both arriving from the same aesthetic theory. You may not like Liebeskind, and I welcome a true aesthetic criticism, but calling him a flavor of the month is a little incredulous considering we are not yet at a vantage point to observe his legacy. I like the idea of Libeskind designing a building, but I am uncomfortable with the never-ending disrespect for the street grid.

Arch City wrote:Interesting. You can throw an internationally-renown architect under the bus, but I can’t be critical of local designs and architects who design what I believe are humdrum buildings? Do you see the irony? Although my comments were certainly not an indictment of all St. Louis architects, my critique is based on finished products that impact local skylines.



Even one of the head guys at HOK (can’t remember his name) acknowledged that St. Louis could do better – and it can.

To be fair, is it possible that the local designs aren't so much a reflection of the designer, but of the customer? In the end, the customer pays for the building and if they push for a more "humdrum" design, what is the designer/architect to do?