urbanSTL

roger wyoming II wrote:^ wow, what a classic beat down... ud called it.

oh, i didn't even realize that the deadspin thing hadn't been posted yet when i made that comment. i'd already seen it. assumed it had.

urban_dilettante wrote:

wustl_eng wrote:

And the whole "flyover" country thing reeks of Midwestern reverse snobbery. It sneers at the imaginary coastal elites who ignore St. Louis for perfectly viable reasons, and it suggests that St. Louis is some kind of hidden gem of an American city that only REAL FOLK know about.

This is great. Though STL definitely is "some kind of hidden gem" in certain ways.

sorry, but there actually is WAY more snobbery directed at the Midwest by elitists on the coasts than there is Midwest snobbery directed at the coasts. the "coastal elites" aren't imaginary, and this article's overreaction to such a benign piece of mayoral babbling pretty much confirms it.

I wasn't saying there isn't coastal snobbery directed at the Midwest (I'm from one of the bigger cities in the Northeast, it's real), just that that particular quote was pretty funny/spot on. But I do think a lot of St. Louisans/Midwesterners have some kind of inferiority complex about how they think "coastal elites" perceive or judge them. To be honest most people on the East Coast only know about St. Louis because of baseball or beer (or now, racism and rioting) if they even know about it at all, and it's not because of "snobbery"... it's just general ignorance of a middle-of-the-map city whose glory days are long past.

wustl_eng wrote: I wasn't saying there isn't coastal snobbery directed at the Midwest (I'm from one of the bigger cities in the Northeast, it's real), just that that particular quote was pretty funny/spot on. But I do think a lot of St. Louisans/Midwesterners have some kind of inferiority complex about how they think "coastal elites" perceive or judge them. To be honest most people on the East Coast only know about St. Louis because of baseball or beer (or now, racism and rioting) if they even know about it at all, and it's not because of "snobbery"... it's just general ignorance of a middle-of-the-map city whose glory days are long past.

if you admit the elitism is real i'm not sure how that bit is spot on. he's basically saying the elitism is "imaginary". and he suggests that acknowledging a term invented by elitists to denigrate the midwest somehow demonstrates reverse snobbery. that's bullsh*t. acknowledging snobbery is not snobbery. his absurd overreaction to Slay's relatively innocuous albeit lame article reeks of the elitism that, according to him, doesn't exist. St. Louis' inferiority complex is, to a large extent, a product of sh*t like this. it's not about how we "perceive" that we're being judged. we get judged harshly a LOT in the media—way more than most other cities—and that bad press influences the opinions of people who otherwise wouldn't form an opinion one way or the other. obviously not everybody is an elitist, but that doesn't mean it's imaginary or that it's not heavier in one direction than the other.

urban_dilettante wrote:well, personally i don't think the "rebuttal" was spot on at all. i think it took its criticism to unnecessary and hyperbolic extremes. while reading it i just knew that at some point i was going to come across "St. Louis is a sh*t hole". but that's my point: Slay's naiveté invites haters to sh*t all over us and produces a bunch of bad press we don't need.

Don't get me wrong; I didn't actually like the article. I thought the author was right to call out Slay on his curious cherry-picking, but he also went to 'unnecessary and hyperbolic extremes' as you said.

For one thing- anyone who suggests LA is paradise compared to St. Louis is pretty disingenuous. Take away the often-wonderful weather and those mountains and beaches, and I'd choose St. Louis any day.

wustl_eng wrote:Also, there's no way Slay actually wrote that. Right? I gotta believe it was some staffer/PR person. Lame attempt at STL image rehab after the last couple months.

See my previous post- the WSJ article has all of the characteristics of a Richard Callow-penned PR piece. He used to contribute here as publiceye, the name of his public relations firm. Whether it was Slay or Callow behind this, it was a swing and a miss.

urban_dilettante wrote: St. Louis' inferiority complex is, to a large extent, a product of sh*t like this. it's not about how we "perceive" that we're being judged. we get judged harshly a LOT in the media—way more than most other cities—and that bad press influences the opinions of people who otherwise wouldn't form an opinion one way or the other.

Is this true, though? "way more than other cities"? I'm not sure--and that's what I mean, the perception that STL is always getting piled on when I think the reality is people just don't know or care about St. Louis enough to hold these biases that you allege.

If the city wants good press, give the press something good to write about. I don't see much use in complaining about it.

And interesting about this Richard Callow dude. Never heard of him, but it's hilarious that he used to post here. And yeah, no doubt about it, "a swing and a miss" is an apt description, though probably too polite. Re-reading it is painful. I just can't imagine how/why anyone in his office thought it was a good idea. Too many yes men perhaps?

wustl_eng wrote: Is this true, though? "way more than other cities"? I'm not sure--and that's what I mean, the perception that STL is always getting piled on when I think the reality is people just don't know or care about St. Louis enough to hold these biases that you allege.

yeah, i think so. compare Detroit. it's safe to say the national opinion of Detroit is low across the board. wouldn't you say? and i guarantee you'll find people all over the US who have never been to Detroit but would tell you it's a dump based on what they've read/heard in the media. i'd say St. Louis is second after Detroit in getting bad press, compared to other places.

wustl_eng wrote: If the city wants good press, give the press something good to write about. I don't see much use in complaining about it.

the city does get good press, but it often gets lost in the bad. at the very least the impact is diminished. unfortunately bad press sells better. just look at how our local media caters to its suburban viewers with negative after negative.

St.Louis gets shitted on a lot excuse my language but it really does.. St.Louis often gets more negative press than good
Like articles that are out on how cocky St.Louis Cardinals fans are .. Really?? If thats the only team thats winning who wouldn't get a bit cocky?
SF Boston Detroit L.A. Chicago Have won more than what we have
St.Louis & Detroit are America's true punching bags
I've heard about on how snobby the folks are in the Northwest & i didn't even have to go there to witness that all i had to do is read the Seattle Times about Boeing moving jobs to St.Louis & wallah all the Seattle is so much more than St.Louis hey at least we don't have Ferguson . We have mountains & beautiful water ways what does St.Louis have?
I'm sorry but i would hope St.Louis never turns out that way to feel self righteous we are better than everyone.
I did get one positive note the other night from a person who happened to visited St.Louis & said he thought St.Louis was beautiful & the people here are beautiful. He never met such nice people until he came here.
Too me we St.Louisans allow other cities to bully us also we allow these stupid journalist to bully us as well.. Who gives a fly f*** about crime that crap happens anywhere & yes we love our Cardinals so what & you have a problem with it. Yes we have abandoned homes tell me what city doesn't have abandoned homes?? Yes we had to deal with racial disparities however this isn't only a St.Louis phenomenon..

St.Louis is a great city with many things on the cusp of happening ..

TheNewSaintLouis wrote:St.Louis gets shitted on a lot excuse my language but it really does.. St.Louis often gets more negative press than good
Like articles that are out on how cocky St.Louis Cardinals fans are .. Really?? If thats the only team thats winning who wouldn't get a bit cocky?
SF Boston Detroit L.A. Chicago Have won more than what we have
St.Louis & Detroit are America's true punching bags
I've heard about on how snobby the folks are in the Northwest & i didn't even have to go there to witness that all i had to do is read the Seattle Times about Boeing moving jobs to St.Louis & wallah all the Seattle is so much more than St.Louis hey at least we don't have Ferguson . We have mountains & beautiful water ways what does St.Louis have?
I'm sorry but i would hope St.Louis never turns out that way to feel self righteous we are better than everyone.
I did get one positive note the other night from a person who happened to visited St.Louis & said he thought St.Louis was beautiful & the people here are beautiful. He never met such nice people until he came here.
Too me we St.Louisans allow other cities to bully us also we allow these stupid journalist to bully us as well.. Who gives a fly f*** about crime that crap happens anywhere & yes we love our Cardinals so what & you have a problem with it. Yes we have abandoned homes tell me what city doesn't have abandoned homes?? Yes we had to deal with racial disparities however this isn't only a St.Louis phenomenon..

St.Louis is a great city with many things on the cusp of happening ..

I don't get why St. Louis is look down on so much. I mean yes the city has it's issues so does every city in the world. I think a problem is the city and regional don't work to create narrative about the city. We should not have the cards be our spokesmen because no one out side of the Midwest cares about them. Instead we should build off a narrative about our historic neighborhoods and start ups scene.

Seriously, the police in the St Louis area are so trigger happy its ridiculous. Unless these police murders stop, violence in St Louis will continue to increase. I know a girl at my high school was very convinced to go to SLU, however following the unrest she has decided to apply to Minnesota. All of the hard work to really clean up this city is being thrown in the trash as we speak. Shooting someone 17 times is absurd, and there is a reason why this was the most-read story on the BBC.

The guy shot at the cop. What would you do if someone shot at you? I'd imagine you'd like to defend yourself

pat wrote:The guy shot at the cop. What would you do if someone shot at you? I'd imagine you'd like to defend yourself

Doesn't require shooting at him 17 times, hitting him 7 times.

The problem is there are so much guns on the streets that the cops are always on edge

Chalupas54 wrote:

pat wrote:The guy shot at the cop. What would you do if someone shot at you? I'd imagine you'd like to defend yourself

Doesn't require shooting at him 17 times, hitting him 7 times.

You're making excuses for the victim. Cops have been trained that once you fire you're all in. One shot is the same as 16. That's common protocol in police depts across America.

Seventeen times would be over-the-top if it was at an unarmed individual for example. But when someone has clearly shot at you and can kill you, you don't stop shooting until you know they can't harm you. This guy threatened the officer's life.

It seems this incident would not have caused issues if it wasn't following other events. Mainly since there is no trust right now the accounts are often not believed since the "well has been poisoned"

The trust thing.. how can that be addressed (though in some ways that is a national issue where groups don't trust each other). also the leadership void issues.

^^ that is the thing, how to rebuilt trust or at the very least now lower the "temperature"

The thing is.. the region could wind up getting a long-term black eye similar to what happened in Birmingham, Alabama did in terms of the actions of officials there which they are still trying to deal with 50 years later. Note at that time the metro area there was of similar size as metro Atlanta and look how the trajectories changed after that.

Also, there is the possibility that the region depending on how people react might end up doubling down on white flight and suburban sprawl as a result, if not people leaving the region entirely.

downtown2007 wrote:

Chalupas54 wrote:

pat wrote:The guy shot at the cop. What would you do if someone shot at you? I'd imagine you'd like to defend yourself

Doesn't require shooting at him 17 times, hitting him 7 times.

You're making excuses for the victim. Cops have been trained that once you fire you're all in. One shot is the same as 16. That's common protocol in police depts across America.

Exactly. Ask any law enforcement officer anywhere that question, and the answer will be the same.

There is a much larger protest planned for before the Cardinals game tomorrow. I'm guessing they're hoping to piggy back on the national exposure of game 1.

matguy70 wrote:So sick of this crap.

Solution:

All cops no longer carry guns. Or all cops no longer can use guns on black criminals/citizens. Or just pull the cops off the streets. Not every cop shooting is racially motivated.

Local media needs to quit fueling the fire IMO.

In the last 72 hours - cops have killed the following people across America.... where is CNN? FOX, NBC, CBS AND USA TODAY???

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/SF- ... 808161.php

Here's one from Atlanta today: Cop kills carjacker - after an OFF DUTY officer kills man trying to car jack. ---CNN your back yard.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/police-o ... opp/nhf5d/

http://www.jrn.com/kgun9/news/Officer-s ... 77541.html

IN SC - white officer kills black man: http://newsok.com/officer-kills-man-thr ... eed/741626

IN SAVANNAH GA: White cop kills Black man (that is actually hand-cuffed) http://q13fox.com/2014/09/18/authoritie ... o-had-gun/

NYC: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Pa ... 91931.html

NYC: Kill knife-wielding black man... not armed otherwise. http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/ ... lding-man/

KANSAS CITY: Cops kill man that was carrying some type of sword weapon: http://www.kmbz.com/KC-officer-shoots-a ... h/20076847

THESE all within the past 72 hours. I am sure there are plenty more.

I couldn't agree with you more. We need more programs to give these guys alternatives to criminal activity and improved police training on the best ways to handle these types of potentially life-threatening situations.

imperialmog wrote:Also, there is the possibility that the region depending on how people react might end up doubling down on white flight and suburban sprawl as a result, if not people leaving the region entirely.

That was a point I made earlier. I believe, and I hope I am wrong, that the recent unrest could trigger another wave of flight. As I said before, I think it will be regardless of race or location. People with means will move to wherever they feel safe.

That could mean very different things to different people. Quite honestly, if I wasn't married with children, which obviously makes it difficult for me to move, I'd think more seriously about relocation. I love it here, but it's also a great place to visit.