DaronDierkes wrote:So Alex guest posted on the Urbanophile a profile for St. Louis and the commentors went berserk on the China Hub issue. Alon of New York seemed to think this was a way for St. Louis to sell itself out and be colonized. Do you guys think Chinese businesses will come in and control us?
Does St. Louis have a Chinese Chamber of Commerce?
The folks commenting went berserk because they are completely and utterly clueless of the goings on in StL.
Chinese investment did a lot for Vancouver and Toronto... oh yeah and New York, too.
Can you send this article?
By the way, I think this will be great, however things like electronics generally come via ship.
St. Louis follows the Paris model (as does my hometown of Portland)–exile the poor and minorities into a suburban ghetto. In this case, East St. Louis.
I am laughing at the suggestion that we're anything like Paris.
I very much agree with this though:
It also makes the politics of the city work worse for growth, not just the economics. It forces the city to tailor itself to just a few big businesses, which are not accountable to anyone local. If they start polluting the city, city leaders have an incentive to not fix the problem, but instead lie about it and lobby politicians to ignore it. If they need to extract subsidies from the city to keep operating, the city will not have enough native businesses to keep it going if it says no. It’s common in small company towns, and for some reason St. Louis as you’re portraying it wants to become less like a big city and more like one of those small towns.
Choose any one of our large downtown firms as an example.
1. Senators Bond and McCaskill will lead another delegation to China, leaving Saturday, and spending a week speaking with various government and trade organizations, as well as air freight companies. As well as the Senators, the standard collection of government and business leaders will meet with the Chinese trade delegations. The expectation is that the designation of Lambert as an offical trade hub will take place by the end of the year.
Source: http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/ ... rround=lfn
2. Holy crap - FIRST CARGO FLIGHT FROM SHANGHAI TO MID-AMERICA LANDED TODAY! The flight originated with planning from Beijing, took off from Shanghai Pudong International, had a routine stop-over in Anchorage, and flew on to Mascoutah. The cargo was off-loaded to trucks for Chicago, Dallas, NYC, Minneapolis, and Atlanta before flying off to the North Carolina Triangle for further off-loading. While I'm sure this flight is related to the Lambert-centric delegation noted above, Mid-America's Director said he doesn't see this as equal competition to the China Hub as a whole. This flight had a major focus of coordinating procedures, communications, and logistics coordination for repeat flights between Shanghai Pudong and Mid-America, with the expectation that regular cargo flights from East Asia to Mid-America will be underway by the end of the year.
Source: http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/ ... rround=lfn
Wow. Didn't see that coming, especially after Boeing announced last week its intentions to operate out of there for manufacturing. As the rest of the country is mired in the Great Recession (more like an actual Depression), we have the opportunity to see strong growth in exports by regional companies, and based out of the area, with the largest economy after the US's.
Doug wrote:Chinese investment did a lot for Vancouver and Toronto... oh yeah and New York, too.
When the Hong Kong handover took place in '97, a massive influx of people flush with cash emigrated to Vancouver and pumped a ton of money in. There's a huge amount of investment and immigrants flowing there from China and other parts of Asia -- I can only hope that this might lead to us seeing even a fraction of that amount here.
Then again Vancouver is experiencing a real estate bubble that has yet to pop...
St. Louis follows the Paris model (as does my hometown of Portland)–exile the poor and minorities into a suburban ghetto. In this case, East St. Louis.
I am laughing at the suggestion that we're anything like Paris.
We are named after a Frenchman, we have a broad central boulevard spine, we have a large river, we have lots of outdoor dining on the street (now), and we have a tall central iconic symbol. We are the Paris of America. If not us, who?
It's one of Paris' business districts, La Défense, not really comparable to Clayton (or downtown for that matter) but feel free to find similarities:
With 77.5 acres, 72 glass-and-steel buildings, 180,000 daily workers and 37.7 million sq ft of office space, La Défense is Europe's largest purpose-built business district. La Defénse is one of several business districts in Paris' metro area of 12 million.
newstl2020 wrote:Who cares? It would all be Germany if not for our elder generations. "Paristeindunkel."
Point of thread = China Hub.
In this day and age we can't afford the "Who cares?" attitude anymore. It's a global economy. The EU with 450 million citizens surpassed the US as the largest economy in the world. Soon China will do the same.
Hence the existence of this thread about a possible STL China Hub.
(I am sure you hate them communists but you would love to have the hub.)
St. Louis is not Paris. Paris is not St. Louis. Why are we talking about Paris in a thread about Chinese - US trade? Paris is not in talks with St. Louis about securing a French Cargo Hub. China is. Paris is nowhere near China. If you want to start a thread about the global relevance of French exports in proportion to the available office space in downtown Paris, feel free to do so.
Great news about the flight into Mid-America. In terms of possible future business development in downtown StL, Mid-America may actually serve as a better catalyst for growth. It would certainly remove Clayton as an option. Obviously, MO would love to capitalize on increased tax revenue from business at Lambert, but as far as the region as a whole is concerned, what are everyone's thoughts on the hub ending up at Mid-America?
newstl2020 wrote:I think you have missed the point.
Great news about the flight into Mid-America. In terms of possible future business development in downtown StL, Mid-America may actually serve as a better catalyst for growth. It would certainly remove Clayton as an option. Obviously, MO would love to capitalize on increased tax revenue from business at Lambert, but as far as the region as a whole is concerned, what are everyone's thoughts on the hub ending up at Mid-America?
Although having Mid-America as a hub for Chinese cargo would certainly remove Clayton as an option for Chinese US HQs, I'm not sure it would really benefit downtown at all. Mid America is about 26 miles from downtown, while Lambert is only about 14. If proximity means anything, it would be best for Lambert to be the cargo hub. Plus, more cargo coming in there will mean lower landing fees for passenger jets, which might get us more service or even a hub.
Breaking News: Paris is not China.
Why the hell are we talking about Paris in a thread on China? (Don't answer)
And, we should hope to be on par with a global city like Paris. Who in their right mind would disagree with that?
No more derailing into off-topic socioeconomics.
Focus: Concerned that the "hub" may now be based in Mascoutah over Lambert?
No, not really.
1. Increased options for entry increase the chances that it'll end up in the StL Metro Area over, say, Dallas.
2. Lambert is still the top priority because of its geographic proximity to workers, existing businesses, developable land (with NorthPark being designed in lockstep to the China Hub), and previously existing connections with rail lines. And of course, the W-1W runway, which is brand new and made for big planes.
3. The Missouri delegation is the front-runner. This week, Senators Kit Bond & Claire McCaskill are heading to Beijing and Shanghai to negotiate, not Roland Burris or Dick Durbin. (got to love how even a US Senator's name is censored here)
4. First mover advantage very much on the Lambert-centric side.
5. The negotiations are focused on duals point of entry already, with Lambert providing both personal & cargo flights and Mid-America providing only cargo flights. That this test run flight landed at Mid-America and not Lambert is not of my concern here, as Lambert is the superior airport by far. Think: Lambert as port-of-entry to the US for two-way exchanges, and Mid-America as both a redundant and a stopping-off point to and from South America, i.e. South American goods bound for China.
6. Actually, it probably makes even sense for that flight to have landed in Mascoutah because, for such an important test flight, the China Hub Commission may have wanted open skies for the flight, keeping this jet out of the way of commercial jets going by, to best record flight data for future projections.
7. If Chinese HQs are coming to the US, StL will get a few, but many will be going to the 3 truly global US cities: NY, LA, and Chicago. I bet StL would nab quite a few US operations here, including HQs, and I bet they'd be in both Downtown and Clayton. But, let's not kid ourselves into expecting EStL will be Pudong in ten years.
Wow. The optimism of this board is always impressive.
Nonetheless, I think the most germane comment was "Didn't see that coming." The sudden MidAmerica element to this should be at least moderately unnerving to anyone who watched the "cooperation" on the new Mississippi river bridge. All of a sudden a cargo flight just happens to land in Illinois at the same time that the two Missouri senators (not a regional delegation) are headed for China?
Although both sides of the river have hundreds of millions in misplaced expenditures to recoup with their respective airports, MidAmerica is even further in the crapper than Lambert. And here we have another opportunity for either, or both, to throw even more money at their problems. Precedent does not bode well for a positive outcome.
bonwich wrote:Wow. The optimism of this board is always impressive.
As is the pessimism of some.
Nonetheless, I think the most germane comment was "Didn't see that coming." The sudden MidAmerica element to this should be at least moderately unnerving to anyone who watched the "cooperation" on the new Mississippi river bridge. All of a sudden a cargo flight just happens to land in Illinois at the same time that the two Missouri senators (not a regional delegation) are headed for China?
Although both sides of the river have hundreds of millions in misplaced expenditures to recoup with their respective airports, MidAmerica is even further in the crapper than Lambert. And here we have another opportunity for either, or both, to throw even more money at their problems. Precedent does not bode well for a positive outcome.
This cargo flight to MidAmerica has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the creation of a cargo hub at Lambert. This flight is operated by an American cargo carrier, Skylease, based in North Carolina. They've been conducting cargo flights for some time between China, Alaska and North Carolina. MidAmerica is now another stop on the way.
No Chinese airlines are involved in this deal, while the main goal of the negotiations between the China Hub Committee and the Chinese is to make Lambert a profitable hub for Chinese carriers.
Congratulations to MidAmerica for landing the flight. I hope this time it works for them. We need critical mass. This can only help.
The Count wrote:This cargo flight to MidAmerica has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the creation of a cargo hub at Lambert. This flight is operated by an American cargo carrier, Skylease, based in North Carolina. They've been conducting cargo flights for some time between China, Alaska and North Carolina. MidAmerica is now another stop on the way.
No Chinese airlines are involved in this deal, while the main goal of the negotiations between the China Hub Committee and the Chinese is to make Lambert a profitable hub for Chinese carriers.
Congratulations to MidAmerica for landing the flight. I hope this time it works for them. We need critical mass. This can only help.
Naw. There's no lack of coordination, let alone any competition, going on. Pay no attention to the lack of Illinois representation in the "regional" Hub project. All is well!
P-D, 8/27 wrote:While MidAmerica and Illinois lawmakers were initially involved in the so-called Midwest China Hub project, they aren't anymore, and there have been occasional sparks of friction between the two. When asked about MidAmerica's flight Thursday, Hub Commission Chairman Mike Jones played down any competition.
"Congratulations to them," Jones said. "I don't know if these conflict, but we all have to do everything we can to move the region ahead. If they're successful and if their success is at the order of magnitude we're talking about, that would be good for the region."
It's unclear what happens next at MidAmerica.
Kern said the airport is in talks with Sky Lease and other cargo haulers about a permanent route. While a news release said regular service is "expected to begin" by year's end and that MidAmerica "will be building another warehouse" to host its cargo operations, Kern said nothing has been locked in.
"There are many options we can pursue," he said.
As for Lambert, Kern made clear that his effort started first, and hasn't received nearly as much attention, or federal money, as Lambert's. But, he said, Mid-America is the better choice.
"We'd like to work with our friends across the river, certainly, in any way we can," Kern said. "But we believe the fit for international cargo really lies at Mid-America Airport."
Interesting to hear about the flight at MidAmerica. It doesn't sound like it will stop the Hub at Lambert, though. The talks with the Lambert delegation seem to have been going on a lot longer and more has been done already.
Hopefully our Senators going to China tomorrow can help the deal progress. Having it in place by the end of the year would be great.
I don't see MidAmerica as competition to Lambert, since Lambert has been the focus for a lot longer. But if MidAmerica could be involved that would be great. Seems like having Lambert as the major hub in this and having MidAmerica as a complement to that should strengthen the bid, right? If only all parties involved could work together.
I think this China Hub with Lambert will happen. Everything seems positive so far. Still, you can't count your chickens until they hatch.
The Count wrote:This cargo flight to MidAmerica has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the creation of a cargo hub at Lambert. This flight is operated by an American cargo carrier, Skylease, based in North Carolina. They've been conducting cargo flights for some time between China, Alaska and North Carolina. MidAmerica is now another stop on the way.
No Chinese airlines are involved in this deal, while the main goal of the negotiations between the China Hub Committee and the Chinese is to make Lambert a profitable hub for Chinese carriers.
Congratulations to MidAmerica for landing the flight. I hope this time it works for them. We need critical mass. This can only help.
Naw. There's no lack of coordination, let alone any competition, going on. Pay no attention to the lack of Illinois representation in the "regional" Hub project. All is well!
P-D, 8/27 wrote:While MidAmerica and Illinois lawmakers were initially involved in the so-called Midwest China Hub project, they aren't anymore, and there have been occasional sparks of friction between the two. When asked about MidAmerica's flight Thursday, Hub Commission Chairman Mike Jones played down any competition.
"Congratulations to them," Jones said. "I don't know if these conflict, but we all have to do everything we can to move the region ahead. If they're successful and if their success is at the order of magnitude we're talking about, that would be good for the region."
It's unclear what happens next at MidAmerica.
Kern said the airport is in talks with Sky Lease and other cargo haulers about a permanent route. While a news release said regular service is "expected to begin" by year's end and that MidAmerica "will be building another warehouse" to host its cargo operations, Kern said nothing has been locked in.
"There are many options we can pursue," he said.
As for Lambert, Kern made clear that his effort started first, and hasn't received nearly as much attention, or federal money, as Lambert's. But, he said, Mid-America is the better choice.
"We'd like to work with our friends across the river, certainly, in any way we can," Kern said. "But we believe the fit for international cargo really lies at Mid-America Airport."
The point of my post was that this flight is not related to, nor has any effect on what's going on with the China Hub idea. Really, in making Lambert a China hub Missouri doesn't need MidAmerica. Lambert has plenty of space and runway capacity, as we all know, even to accommodate a large cargo hub for the foreseeable future.
Of course Kern disagrees. He is competing. That's his job.
Note: This first flight was just a test flight by Skylease. Nothing has been signed and it is not clear yet if or when regular flights will be conducted in the near future.
The Count wrote:
The point of my post was that this flight is not related to, nor has any effect on what's going on with the China Hub idea. Really, in making Lambert a China hub Missouri doesn't need MidAmerica. Lambert has plenty of space and runway capacity, as we all know, even to accommodate a large cargo hub for the foreseeable future.
Of course Kern disagrees. He is competing. That's his job.
Correct me if I'm wrong bonwich, but I think this underscores the point bonwich was trying to make. There's no regional coordination/cooperation going on here; "the region" doesn't end at the river. We're still behaving like a bunch of municipalities, allowing ourselves to be played off one another. It seems to me (having absolutely no knowledge in the area whatsoever) that having two underutilized airports in the region could serve as a selling point for a regional hub, but instead the two airports, and their associated parochial interests, are undercutting each other. I'm sure there wouldn't be immediate demand for 2 airports in the proposed hub, but it should at least be brought up as long-term benefit in the discussion.
Also, on a more selfish note, with an airport on either side, downtown seems the logical choice for businesses to locate. With a Lambert-only hub, Clayton or suburban office parks seem the more likely choice to me.
^^ Doubly agree, in that the flight itself was not the first of a planned continuous stream of flights, and that it's Kern's job to compete with Lambert. Meanwhile, I bet that the Mid-America flight was known to have been coming in by the China Hub Commission, especially as that plane can provide solid data on the flight paths necessary for anticipated later Chinese planes bound for the Metro Area. Such info would be in the public records, and as we all know from A Few Good Men, it's hard to make a whole flight disappear from the records (unless you're a full-bird colonel who's about ready to be named NSA Director). It only makes sense that this info was shared, and I bet they've all been talking about this in Beijing today.
Bonwich, I do recognize and agree that Mid-America is competing for these flight, and honestly I feel for them. The Missouri side has our two US Senators actively fighting for the opportunity to hub these flights, whereas Mid-America is mostly working on its own, as I doubt either Senators Burris or Durbin would actively fight for something that provides competition to the cargo operations currently underway at O'Hare. While there would be cooperation between both sides of the river if a deal is made, they're out for themselves, and those poor guys are doing so while not trying to take from their state's main economic engine, Chicago. I hope that regional cooperation prevails.
And yes, I am optomistic on this project, or at the very least hopeful, while trying to remain pragmatic. My thoughts here are only looking for what is possible and trying to think for the best opportunities to be realized, as this could truly be a chance for an international commerce project that could increase regional economic strength by an order of magnitude. While there of course has been a history of major economic development projects in the area failing under their own weight, or promising the undeliverable, or never reaching fruition, or just being white elephants, this one has the momentum underway for a clearly realizable development that is both mutually beneficial and addresses an immediate need for global trade. I'm just glad we're trying to do something rather than passively letting opportunities slip by.
Being voted the 3rd worst airport in the U.S. doesn't help the cause, as the delegation prepares to head to China to discuss the hub. Hopefully, they will be able to answer questions and counter the rankings complaints.
DOGTOWNB&R wrote:Being voted the 3rd worst airport in the U.S. doesn't help the cause, as the delegation prepares to head to China to discuss the hub. Hopefully, they will be able to answer questions and counter the rankings complaints.
True, but many do not read any further than the rankings. You don't want any negative publicity, when trying to lure something of this magitude to your facility.
Some will read "3rd worst airport in America" and thats it.
I am not saying that this should have an effect on the effort, but you can never tell. Bad pub is bad pub, relevant or not. Just throwing it out there.
I doubt that ranking will seriously impact the China Hub study. This is cargo, not passengers. Lambert as the base for the cargo operations seems to have a lot more pros than cons. If the China deal eventually turns into having passengers then those airlines and Lambert could surely work together to make service better. Anyway, I don't think this study is a major hurdle.
Travelers cited the lack of food and shopping.
If the hub brings more activity to the area that could certainly be remedied. It's not like it's unfixable (not a word, I know, but I'm tired).
The airport is now home to a Pasta House and there's more to come. Lambert is in the middle of a 70 million dollar renovation. The improvements are expected to take several years.
Charles Jaco on Fox 2 talked with Senators Bond and McCaskill today while they were in China. Although nothing has been signed yet, they report that it is basically a done deal with twice weekly flights to start happening after the first of the new year. They expect more and more cargo flights will be added shortly after.
