Between this and google, I'm buying a lot of stock in your intimations, sir!gone corporate wrote:^ Trust me, actions are still hopping for the Trade Hub initiative, just not necessarily in Jeff City. Have to be vague right now, sorry, but believe me when I say that this is not a forgotten opportunity. Will talk more when I have clearance...
Ha! I remember telling my brother in 1998 that all the effort and monies to move the LA Rams 1200 miles would have been better spent moving the capital 120 miles.jcity wrote:I wish the capital stayed in st. Louis or even st. Charles.
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jcity wrote:I wish the capital stayed in st. Louis or even st. Charles.
Not to get off topic but that's an interesting "what if"
I wonder what St. Charles would look like had it remained the state capital. Obviously today's legislature would not be meeting above a dried goods store as they did in the 1820's.
They probably would have built a similar structure to the one currently in Jeff City in the area where the county courthouse was built on 3rd St(in fact many visitors hearing that St. Chuck was the first capitol of MO automatically see the dome of the courthouse and think that was it)
My guess is St. Charles would have a few more people than the current 65,000. Maybe 100,000 at least. I wonder if it would have affected sprawl in the further suburbs like St. Peters, O'Fallon, etc. Probably not.
There is precedence of having a state capitol in a suburban town, I'm thinking Olympia, WA which is outside Seattle.
Anyways, carry on
I'd rather secede. Leave Missourah and create a new gerrymandered state with St. Louis City/County, Columbia and Kansas City linked by I-70.shadrach wrote:Ha! I remember telling my brother in 1998 that all the effort and monies to move the LA Rams 1200 miles would have been better spent moving the capital 120 miles.jcity wrote:I wish the capital stayed in st. Louis or even st. Charles.
Rather than seceding, I'd rather see us annex the metro east into Missouri. Clearly Illinois has forgotten that they have a major metro center other than Chicago... We would do a lot more to give it life than the folks up in Springfield are doing. Same thing with Annexing the Kansas part of Kansas City. That would end the regional bickering and petty parochialism that seems to go on and let us focus on being more competitive with places outside the midwest.dweebe wrote: I'd rather secede. Leave Missourah and create a new gerrymandered state with St. Louis City/County, Columbia and Kansas City linked by I-70.
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I live in Olympia. It's the biggest dump I've ever seen in my life. The fact that it's the capitol has done little to salvage what little this town has going for it. The tallest building in the town (a whopping ten stories) has been vacant since the '70s. The entire population couldn't even fill up Busch Stadium. Half the downtown area is vacant parking lots with used needles all over the ground. Many the buildings that haven't been torn down yet are just sitting there empty, many in worse shape than Cupples #7.southsidepride wrote:
There is precedence of having a state capitol in a suburban town, I'm thinking Olympia, WA which is outside Seattle.
Anyways, carry on
Think there are lots of homeless people in St. Louis? You wouldn't even believe your eyes if you came to Olympia. The homeless problem here is HUGE. I've never seen anything like it! The town does nothing to help them at all. It's a shame, really. There are groups of 5 or more of them on every single block at any given time. The weather is cold and rainy for 9 or 10 months out of the year, so forget about going outside. It sits on the southernmost tip of Puget Sound, meaning there are no waves and all the pollution in the ocean ends up right in Capitol Lake, directly in front of the Capitol building and another sea of parking lots. What few people you see outside are usually on some kind of hard drugs, or, at the very least, drunk. People are always fighting. On top of all this, everything is extremely expensive. The Goodwill here has the same prices as a regular (non-resale/thrift) store does in St. Louis. So it isn't exactly thrifty, is it? Oh, and there is practically no cell service anywhere.
Aside from the dreary downtown area, it's mostly suburban subdivisions with lower design standards than Aventura, and strip malls that are somehow even worse than the homes.
Here is a list of fun things to do in Olympia:
1.) Leave
The only reason anyone should come here is because it will help them to better appreciate their hometown more, because there is very little chance they could be from somewhere worse. Growing up here must be hell on Earth. I have yet to meet almost anyone at all who even remotely likes it here. Transplants, natives, it doesn't matter. Nearly everyone says it sucks. In short, naming Olympia as the capitol of the state hasn't done much to actually make it a nice place to live at all. It's the worst town or city I have seen in Washington so far. Even Aberdeen is nicer than this place.
There's nothing to do whatsoever. There's a small live theater, but no Broadway shows ever come. They come to St. Louis, though...There's no music venue large enough to host a concert featuring a big-name artist/group. There are no major league sports stadiums around. You have to drive nearly two hours to Seattle for any of that stuff. There are one or two museums, but I'm pretty sure you have to PAY to get into them! I'm just sore about that because I'm so used to museums being free
Also, the food blows.
Saint Charles, whether the capitol or not, is far nicer than Olympia in every way except for the forests (Oly has great forests). Jeff City is also much nicer. Sure, it might not be Indianapolis or Austin, but at least it isn't Olympia. That's basically what I think of every town/city I visit these days: No matter how bad they could be, at least they aren't Olympia.
If you haven't been here, you can't possibly understand what it's like. You really have to see it to believe it, and even then, it's still unbelievable. I've actually been wanting to make a whole thread about Olympia for awhile now, but once southsidepride brought it up, I just had to jump at the opportunity to knock this town.
Anyway, I wouldn't be opposed to making STL the capitol, but what are the chances of that? Even if it did happen, would it really do anything for the City? It obviously hasn't done much for Olympia.
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^C'mon Gateway City, don't hold back. Tell us what you REALLY think about Olympia 
Actually that pretty much echoes everything else I've heard about that town.
The subject of the location of state capitols is an interesting one. Having spent a lot of time the last few months in Nashville it does seem that the city has benefited from having the seat of Tennessee government located there. Overall the Nashville/Davidson County area is ahead of Memphis when it comes to jobs and economic growth. I'm not sure how much the location of the capitol has to do with that or if more credit goes toe the medical and education economy bolstered by Vanderbilt University.
As both Memphis and Nashville are tourist destinations for music that one seems to be a wash.
But if you've spent any time in both cities it's clear that while Beale Street and a few other blocks in downtown Memphis are bustling much of the rest of downtown is a dead zone. Overall Nashville has a much more developed downtown area. Surely some of that is due to having the state capitol there.
Actually that pretty much echoes everything else I've heard about that town.
The subject of the location of state capitols is an interesting one. Having spent a lot of time the last few months in Nashville it does seem that the city has benefited from having the seat of Tennessee government located there. Overall the Nashville/Davidson County area is ahead of Memphis when it comes to jobs and economic growth. I'm not sure how much the location of the capitol has to do with that or if more credit goes toe the medical and education economy bolstered by Vanderbilt University.
As both Memphis and Nashville are tourist destinations for music that one seems to be a wash.
But if you've spent any time in both cities it's clear that while Beale Street and a few other blocks in downtown Memphis are bustling much of the rest of downtown is a dead zone. Overall Nashville has a much more developed downtown area. Surely some of that is due to having the state capitol there.
No offense but I think you're being rather hasty with your comparisons. It's worth pointing out that the Nashville/Davidson County area is rather ahead of most mid-sized American cities when it comes to driving growth in population, jobs, economics, etc., not just Memphis. So there's obviously something special going on there.southsidepride wrote:^C'mon Gateway City, don't hold back. Tell us what you REALLY think about Olympia
Actually that pretty much echoes everything else I've heard about that town.
The subject of the location of state capitols is an interesting one. Having spent a lot of time the last few months in Nashville it does seem that the city has benefited from having the seat of Tennessee government located there. Overall the Nashville/Davidson County area is ahead of Memphis when it comes to jobs and economic growth. I'm not sure how much the location of the capitol has to do with that or if more credit goes toe the medical and education economy bolstered by Vanderbilt University.
As both Memphis and Nashville are tourist destinations for music that one seems to be a wash.
But if you've spent any time in both cities it's clear that while Beale Street and a few other blocks in downtown Memphis are bustling much of the rest of downtown is a dead zone. Overall Nashville has a much more developed downtown area. Surely some of that is due to having the state capitol there.
To say that Memphis and Nashville are tourist destinations for music and thus to write off that as a wash is kind of like saying St. Louis and Washington, D.C. are both tourist destinations for national monuments and then say "so that's a wash." Both are, but it's really more of an apples-to-oranges comparison... or a huge apple vs. tiny apple comparison. I wouldn't say it's a wash, in any event.
Nashville has done an exceptional job of achieving "boomtown" status since pretty much the late-nineties, when the expanding NHL added the Nashville Predators, and the Tennessee Titans moved there from Houston. There are even rumblings now of them stealing an MLB team from Tampa Bay. I just got back from Nashville, where I spent Memorial Day weekend, and I gotta say, most mid-sized cities do not have a vibrancy that can compare with their downtown's vibrancy, especially on Broadway. I know we sure don't. And I don't think it's a case of them just having a more condensed, concentrated entertainment district, because they have several just like we do (The Loop, CWE, Wash Ave, Soulard)... Division, the Gulch, Demonbreun, Broadway... All were completely hopping and totally packed Fri, Sat and Sun nite. And it felt like everywhere I turned, there were crane towers building more high-rises. Maybe having their capitol there has helped somehow, maybe not. I dunno. If it has, how has it, though specifically?
Sorry I went on a tangent big time just now, but like I said I just got back from that city and I was very, very impressed.
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Yeah, it's tough. there are several cities our size that have construction cranes all over them..San Diego, Nashville, Denver, Minneapolis....
The downtown residential high-rise boom hasn't hit STL and, frankly, I don't know if it ever will.....SAD
The downtown residential high-rise boom hasn't hit STL and, frankly, I don't know if it ever will.....SAD
There's the Millenium Center, the Arcade-Wright, the Chemical, and the Roberts Tower here... so there is stuff to look forward to, but yeah, it just doesn't seem like it's on the same scale as those other places. We need more jobs downtown. Badly.sirshankalot wrote:Yeah, it's tough. there are several cities our size that have construction cranes all over them..San Diego, Nashville, Denver, Minneapolis....
The downtown residential high-rise boom hasn't hit STL and, frankly, I don't know if it ever will.....SAD
Also you have....Jefferson Arms (which will be redeveloped), 2200 Locust Street (27 apartments) and The Stamping Lofts (56 studio apartments) opened in April.
Although I too would like to see more new residential construction, part of the reason why there are no residential cranes in downtown St. Louis is because of the amount of large empty buildings.
Although over the years many have been converted into apartments, lofts and condos there are a lot of empty buildings still. Macy's exit could complicate matters for multiple new residential construction projects as well. However, I do think there is potential for new construction in the future.
Downtown St. Louis has 14,000 residents. Nashville has 6,800 and it's very likely Nashville did not let its downtown go-to-the-dogs like St. Louis' downtown so there probably weren't as many old buildings to renovate.
According to the St. Louis mayor, the amount of empty buildings downtown has dwindled to 30 - down from 150 - in just ten years.
Also other than Brentwood (Tennessee), Nashville doesn't have as many nodes of business to compete with its downtown as St. Louis - Clayton, Chesterfield, Creve Coeur, Des Peres, Maryland Heights/Westport, Earth City, Riverport etc. Even the Metro East has added commercial space in recent years.
Nashville is doing to good things - I call it the Atlanta affect. Nearby cities like Charlotte, Nashville, Birmingham all seem to look at what's going on in Atlanta for motivation and ideas.
Although I too would like to see more new residential construction, part of the reason why there are no residential cranes in downtown St. Louis is because of the amount of large empty buildings.
Although over the years many have been converted into apartments, lofts and condos there are a lot of empty buildings still. Macy's exit could complicate matters for multiple new residential construction projects as well. However, I do think there is potential for new construction in the future.
Downtown St. Louis has 14,000 residents. Nashville has 6,800 and it's very likely Nashville did not let its downtown go-to-the-dogs like St. Louis' downtown so there probably weren't as many old buildings to renovate.
According to the St. Louis mayor, the amount of empty buildings downtown has dwindled to 30 - down from 150 - in just ten years.
Also other than Brentwood (Tennessee), Nashville doesn't have as many nodes of business to compete with its downtown as St. Louis - Clayton, Chesterfield, Creve Coeur, Des Peres, Maryland Heights/Westport, Earth City, Riverport etc. Even the Metro East has added commercial space in recent years.
Nashville is doing to good things - I call it the Atlanta affect. Nearby cities like Charlotte, Nashville, Birmingham all seem to look at what's going on in Atlanta for motivation and ideas.
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There are a few nice things about Oly. The Evergreen State College is a major institution and is probably the only thing that has prevented this town from emptying out completely. I really don't know why the capitol isn't Seattle. Even Tacoma or Spokane would make more sense than Oly. The forests are more beautiful than any other forests I have ever seen.southsidepride wrote:^C'mon Gateway City, don't hold back. Tell us what you REALLY think about Olympia
The mountains in the distance are not technically in Oly, but they are so huge you can see them from hundreds of miles away and they are gorgeous. The Puget Sound is cool as long as you can't see any trash in the water (good luck with that though).
Also, there's a bowling alley and two movie theaters. There is also a skate park. These are basically Oly's biggest attractions aside from capitol building tours. Oh, and you can go on a boat. Capitol Forest is enormous but I don't think most of it is actually in Olympia city limits. The entirety of Thurston County only has 200,000 residents anyway. It's tiny.
Summer weather is heavenly, though. It rarely gets above 90 degrees!
That said, let's get back to the Air Hub...
olympia doesnt even have an airport btw
wow, we've gone way off the rails here.
For me, this talk of capitals works when that city is the only metro in the state., i.e.: Atlanta, Indianapolis, Mpls/STP, Denver, Charlotte (and Chicago to some degree.)
What STL lacks compared to other cities is concentration of power. There is great momentum when a city/metro is the capital and the undisputed economic engine of its state. We're in a tug of war: STL vs KC, metros vs outstate, STL vs everyone else. Add to that the city/county schism and no it's wonder STL and Missouri cant get the horses pulling in the same direction.
For me, this talk of capitals works when that city is the only metro in the state., i.e.: Atlanta, Indianapolis, Mpls/STP, Denver, Charlotte (and Chicago to some degree.)
What STL lacks compared to other cities is concentration of power. There is great momentum when a city/metro is the capital and the undisputed economic engine of its state. We're in a tug of war: STL vs KC, metros vs outstate, STL vs everyone else. Add to that the city/county schism and no it's wonder STL and Missouri cant get the horses pulling in the same direction.
^ Don't forget that KC and STL actually have competing states within their metro areas. I think you can argue that has a bigger impact for the respective metro areas then Jeff City. A couple of the pluses and minuses, as we are way off topic but going to try and bring back around to the air cargo thread.
The plus side, KC has gained a regional airport in part to Kansas City, KS going along with it and Kansas seeing KC as its true metro area and the plus side of KC, KS landing Google Fiber. The downside, You might see a street car line built but doubt you will ever see the transit that St Louis has because neither state is going to back it.
St. Louis plus is that it has gain a respectable transit without Jeff City in big part because of Illinois support of metrolink. It will only gain more with Illinois commitment to Amtrak/HSR. I can easily see another metro east line happening to Edwardsville/SIU if metro east politics started pushing for it. Having SIU added to a metrolink system that connects UMSL, Wash U, SLU, Wash U Med School as well as Amtrak/HSR & Lambert would be another big plus. With Prop A passing, central corridor streetcar proposal and more help on Illinois side you could see some respectable transit build out.
Getting back to the thread and downside of metro areas with competing states, metro east has or will not support Lambert after the failed attempt to build a all new airport. Now state and local aspirations of trying to establish a secondary airport on the east side is the norm. Throw in Illinois heavy subsidies for distribution facilities from state down to local. (their is a reason why large warehouses have been built in cornfields and it is tax policy for the most part). While Gone Corporate might argue differently, I think Lambert can't compete with Mid-America or Downtown St. Louis airport for air cargo trade or industrial aviation services in part to Metro East being in Illinois.
The plus side, KC has gained a regional airport in part to Kansas City, KS going along with it and Kansas seeing KC as its true metro area and the plus side of KC, KS landing Google Fiber. The downside, You might see a street car line built but doubt you will ever see the transit that St Louis has because neither state is going to back it.
St. Louis plus is that it has gain a respectable transit without Jeff City in big part because of Illinois support of metrolink. It will only gain more with Illinois commitment to Amtrak/HSR. I can easily see another metro east line happening to Edwardsville/SIU if metro east politics started pushing for it. Having SIU added to a metrolink system that connects UMSL, Wash U, SLU, Wash U Med School as well as Amtrak/HSR & Lambert would be another big plus. With Prop A passing, central corridor streetcar proposal and more help on Illinois side you could see some respectable transit build out.
Getting back to the thread and downside of metro areas with competing states, metro east has or will not support Lambert after the failed attempt to build a all new airport. Now state and local aspirations of trying to establish a secondary airport on the east side is the norm. Throw in Illinois heavy subsidies for distribution facilities from state down to local. (their is a reason why large warehouses have been built in cornfields and it is tax policy for the most part). While Gone Corporate might argue differently, I think Lambert can't compete with Mid-America or Downtown St. Louis airport for air cargo trade or industrial aviation services in part to Metro East being in Illinois.
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With the President in China talking expanding trade and the North/South Metrolink talks resuming, any chance this opportunity comes back around? I still haven't gotten over its enormous potential, I had a lot of dreams riding on the China Hub.
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time for a new dream- there is zero discussions locally about the China Hub...
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^Actually, there remain great opportunities in the relative near-term for air cargo flights and logistics management in STL Metro.
The "China Hub" deal from the last couple years is dead, with multiple hands on the knife in its back. What was first conceived by McKee & Company, later championed by various politicians, and which was killed because of the tax credits that would've been allocated (and which other tax credits would've been eliminated to accomodate them), will not come back. I don't think there's even one real bill being put forth in this upcoming MO General Assembly that'll involve air cargo.
There really should be...
From what little I can say, STL is very much on the minds of outside business interests involved in international air cargo. They see the size of the regional catchment area for long-distance hauling of high-end goods, locally manufactured, that are still being shipped up by truck to ORD for flights abroad. It is feasible that various conversations will be taking place in the first half of 2015 that could see the reintroduction of this opportunity, perhaps at STL, perhaps at BLV. If anything takes place, believe me that it will center on the ability of these businesses to set up agreements with the local airport authorities that will facilitate these flights. In the end, it's not going to be about tax credits; it's about local government agency bureaucracy and a willingness to work with companies on proactive, mutually beneficial operating agreements. The Balkanization of regional power, by the way, surely doesn't help these efforts. The actions taken to create the "China Hub" first attracted these parties to STL a couple years ago; they are still very much considering what STL Metro has to offer.
Pardon my vagueness. I've largely not talked about this for some time, including not writing on this forum for a long while, because of non-disclosure pledges. Today, what I can say is that the original iteration of a "China Hub" is truly dead, but the opportunity for STL Metro to hub air cargo flights and advanced logistics management does exist today, or at least it may in the next year. Guess we'll all find out as 2015 goes forward. Keep hope alive.
The "China Hub" deal from the last couple years is dead, with multiple hands on the knife in its back. What was first conceived by McKee & Company, later championed by various politicians, and which was killed because of the tax credits that would've been allocated (and which other tax credits would've been eliminated to accomodate them), will not come back. I don't think there's even one real bill being put forth in this upcoming MO General Assembly that'll involve air cargo.
There really should be...
From what little I can say, STL is very much on the minds of outside business interests involved in international air cargo. They see the size of the regional catchment area for long-distance hauling of high-end goods, locally manufactured, that are still being shipped up by truck to ORD for flights abroad. It is feasible that various conversations will be taking place in the first half of 2015 that could see the reintroduction of this opportunity, perhaps at STL, perhaps at BLV. If anything takes place, believe me that it will center on the ability of these businesses to set up agreements with the local airport authorities that will facilitate these flights. In the end, it's not going to be about tax credits; it's about local government agency bureaucracy and a willingness to work with companies on proactive, mutually beneficial operating agreements. The Balkanization of regional power, by the way, surely doesn't help these efforts. The actions taken to create the "China Hub" first attracted these parties to STL a couple years ago; they are still very much considering what STL Metro has to offer.
Pardon my vagueness. I've largely not talked about this for some time, including not writing on this forum for a long while, because of non-disclosure pledges. Today, what I can say is that the original iteration of a "China Hub" is truly dead, but the opportunity for STL Metro to hub air cargo flights and advanced logistics management does exist today, or at least it may in the next year. Guess we'll all find out as 2015 goes forward. Keep hope alive.
gc, thanks. That's encouraging, at least. Glad to see you 'round here again!
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I picture the opportunities with the air cargo is a couple of possible situations that has been brought up in recent months and possibly in combination. One was the conversation about a Mexican Customs station at Lambert to facilitate cargo going to Mexico since if I recall things going to Mexico normally are funneled to a couple of places there, so having this operation here would attract exports to Mexico from here.
The second aspect is possibly tying into what seem to be increasing efforts to attract a transatlantic passenger service from Lambert. Since that would allow for air cargo to go to Europe from here. I remember seeing that British Airways is doing really well from Austin in the air cargo aspect, a lot of it from products that are carried over land from Mexico and loaded onto flights. Both the customs station and TATL passenger service could compliment each other in working on air cargo and the right incentives could help start both. It also seems that this might be more of a focus from Lambert's side now considering there isn't much left domestically in terms of passenger service that needs work on in terms of adding service at this point as opposed to a few years ago.
The second aspect is possibly tying into what seem to be increasing efforts to attract a transatlantic passenger service from Lambert. Since that would allow for air cargo to go to Europe from here. I remember seeing that British Airways is doing really well from Austin in the air cargo aspect, a lot of it from products that are carried over land from Mexico and loaded onto flights. Both the customs station and TATL passenger service could compliment each other in working on air cargo and the right incentives could help start both. It also seems that this might be more of a focus from Lambert's side now considering there isn't much left domestically in terms of passenger service that needs work on in terms of adding service at this point as opposed to a few years ago.
Is this what GC was alluding to?
St. Louis Selected for Global Cities Initiative
https://www.stlpartnership.com/st-louis ... nitiative/
St. Louis Selected for Global Cities Initiative
https://www.stlpartnership.com/st-louis ... nitiative/
Was recently thinking about the China Hub. Was wondering if anyone knows what happened to the supposed huge demand of Chinese goods to South America? Did any other airlines pick up the supposed business? Any other regions cave and give the subsidy?
The only somewhat recent thing I could find was this:
http://showmeinstitute.org/blog/transpo ... rotropolis
The only somewhat recent thing I could find was this:
http://showmeinstitute.org/blog/transpo ... rotropolis
Given the importance of logistics and air cargo and namely Amazon the last decade....plus the supply chain epidemic of 2021. Would Saint Louis have been in a place to capitalize had we done the China Cargo Hub idea? Interested to hear y'all what-ifs