i agree ,lets get of all larry rice places, gone, now we get to the point(the REAL PROBLEM), where the crime is ? when the centanery church first opened up to help the homeless, on tuseday,thursday and saturday crime in the affect of panhandling,verbal abuse, assault, robbery and yes rape has rissen since then, so if all buildens become condos then where will they go? will they go? back to where the centanery church brings them from. only a niave or stuped pearson would not rememember when the neighborhood city group (you know whom they are, the ride bikes and act like securty) that was on the news and got sued because because they turned in the licenes plates to cearten officals.,, this a FACT, when they opened this it was stated that ALL pearsons working would be on a volanteer( i think io spelled that wrong sorry.), but the first FIRST check to them was to pay employees. it was $16,000.. this is old, no... REALLY old news..... so inno.. when do you need someone to answer for you? bythe way the only ones that have to pay the FIF , is all tax payers? give you one guess that wanted/passed that.......humph. ....... wont happen again.now to jmededwick ... to the point . you have lofts but you have places like ohhh lets just say the scott trade center , you have to park somewhere, get where i am going? if not, then goto your local police department and ask for the crime reports on all crime.ALL..
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innov8ion wrote:Sorry, I just don't understand your post.
You're not the only one.
Something about pearsons who got sued for giving license plate numbers to someone else. And that is a FACT. Which I would almost guarantee means that it isn't a FACT.
Following this thread is more intellectually challenging than reading Machiavelli's 'Discourses On Livy'... in Italian.
hey central, reread my past post, i did not say a pearson got sued. the downtown patrnership got sued. it was in all the news, ( i do not get to watch or read much news) even I know it was on 2, 4, 5,11 and in the post dispatch. just check it out. that is the FACT. inno.. what part do you not understand?
pretty much every part, unfortunately. if i understand it correctly, you are concerned about gentrification downtown. also high on your mind are issues with crime and the homeless in your area. join the club.
all i see is a bunch of finger-pointing in dragon's posts, unfortunately. i think the point is to be proactive and work toward solutions. i'm not quite sure what you are trying to prove or accomplish.
all i see is a bunch of finger-pointing in dragon's posts, unfortunately. i think the point is to be proactive and work toward solutions. i'm not quite sure what you are trying to prove or accomplish.
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reddragon wrote:hey central, reread my past post, i did not say a pearson got sued.
You could have fooled me.
reddragon wrote:the downtown patrnership got sued. it was in all the news, ( i do not get to watch or read much news) even I know it was on 2, 4, 5,11 and in the post dispatch. just check it out. that is the FACT.
I think you are making this up. If you are going to make a claim like this, you need to provide a link.
RedDragon is mostly correct. The Partnership and the SLPD were sued by the ACLU on behalf of several homeless who were rounded up and sent to an experimental court where they were put in front of a judge immediately. The judge was a specialist in human services who had social workers and service providers in the courtroom to get the offenders off the street and into a program that could actually help them. The Partnership and SLPD ended up losing this case and the court had to be disbanded and also resulted in a much more timid partnership and SLPD handling of the homeless downtown. The program was very sound and effective, but the means were not exactly the most respectful of the homeless' civil rights. The trigger event was a "rounding up" of the homeless prior to the VP fair weekend.
thank you STLl63101, I know that the suit went through and afer everything went public the police was not able to ask a homeless person to wake up and leave a park downtown without getting into trouble. i did not know some of what you said happened. to add to what you said, i know that the ones that run the feeding the homeless at the centunary church pushed that suit through. now after all this the mayor seen to it that no one sleeping in the parks downtown especaly the park known as hobo park , can not do anything (ask someone there name, especaly ask some one to move along, or do ANYTHING. ) there. of course the park is next to a child day care center. centeral.. if you even care about the issue then goto the local news links and look it up, but if you want,,i decided to take a day off wensday just to take care of a few things.(from home) if you are felling lazy then i will give you the links then. ok?
innov8ion, where do i start, THANK YOU, and we agree on something finaly? WOW. i quess a small start is better than none at all. ok, so i do think we may be at misunderstanding. so where do we begin? ... the part about wil you answer the first question and i said doyou need some else to answer for you, JMedwick answered for you, just like some here take my words and change them. but let it be known that i am not afraid of gentrication and never said that, you said that because you feel it. the truet is that i am for improvements that benefit ALL . in the past you said that there is afforadile( i know i speeled that wrong, SORRY.) housing,to force citizens into a location by there income sounds like what the projects was for, and that failed to the public but of course the developers made out like a fat rat.even the tax payers fronted and covered that bill.but before you or anyone says it, no one is forced, but if you have no choice then you go to where you HAVE to.(like cattle). so to get back to the main topic, plaza square tennants are moving but there are those that will not budge (like me ) and there is those that can not afford or that have nowhere else to go.
innov8ion, where do i start, THANK YOU, and we agree on something finaly? WOW. i quess a small start is better than none at all. ok, so i do think we may be at misunderstanding. so where do we begin? ... the part about wil you answer the first question and i said doyou need some else to answer for you, JMedwick answered for you, just like some here take my words and change them. but let it be known that i am not afraid of gentrication and never said that, you said that because you feel it. the truet is that i am for improvements that benefit ALL . in the past you said that there is afforadile( i know i speeled that wrong, SORRY.) housing,to force citizens into a location by there income sounds like what the projects was for, and that failed to the public but of course the developers made out like a fat rat.even the tax payers fronted and covered that bill.but before you or anyone says it, no one is forced, but if you have no choice then you go to where you HAVE to.(like cattle). so to get back to the main topic, plaza square tennants are moving but there are those that will not budge (like me ) and there is those that can not afford or that have nowhere else to go.
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reddragon wrote:thank you STLl63101, I know that the suit went through and afer everything went public the police was not able to ask a homeless person to wake up and leave a park downtown without getting into trouble. i did not know some of what you said happened. to add to what you said, i know that the ones that run the feeding the homeless at the centunary church pushed that suit through. now after all this the mayor seen to it that no one sleeping in the parks downtown especaly the park known as hobo park , can not do anything (ask someone there name, especaly ask some one to move along, or do ANYTHING. ) there. of course the park is next to a child day care center.
As near as I can figure, reddraggon is saying that pearsons sleeping at the park cannot ask another pearson at the park their name (or do anything for that matter). I guess they go to jail or something. Your guess is as good as mine.
reddragon wrote:centeral.. if you even care about the issue then goto the local news links and look it up, but if you want,,i decided to take a day off wensday just to take care of a few things.(from home) if you are felling lazy then i will give you the links then. ok?
It has nothing to do with "felling" lazy. You made the claim. You provide the evidence.
reddragon wrote:.now to jmededwick ... to the point . you have lofts but you have places like ohhh lets just say the scott trade center , you have to park somewhere, get where i am going? if not, then goto your local police department and ask for the crime reports on all crime.ALL..
I have looked at the crime numbers reported in total. I understand the point you are trying to make reddragon: For all the crime downtown, a larger portion comes from the big events that occur downtown (Cards/Rams/Blues games, concerts, employment center, conventions, festivals, etc.).
But, go back and take a look at what I wrote again.
So yeah, I do think it would reduce crime, or at least reduce serious crimes and that the evolution is a positive thing.
"It" refers to the conversion of downtown uses, such as Plaza Square or NLEC, to lofts. I am not arguing that loft conversions, or even the larger process of "gentrification" would reduce the total crime level, but would likely reduce the level of serious crime that takes place downtown (murder, kidnapings, etc). Using the SLPD's Safe City program, over the last month the area around Busch Stadium has been home to mostly peace disturbances and the like whereas the Plaza Square area shows 4 kidnapings and 1 weapons related call.
From the ACLU website...illeagal to be homeles
none of the articles are online anymore so if you want to read...hit the library
St. Louis, Missouri
Gregory Vogelweid, St. Patrick’s Center. Jeremy Kohler, "City’s handling of homeless is challenged." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 22, 2004;
Jeremy Kohler and Tim "O’Neil, "Judge strikes down community court." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 23, 2004;
Associated Press, "St. Louis concedes cleanup detail was wrong for homeless." The Columbia Daily Tribune. September 24, 2004;
Tim O"Neil, "Cleanup detail was wrong, city says." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 24, 2004;
Betsy Taylor, "Judge blocks removing homeless off the streets without cause." Associated Press. October 15, 2004.
none of the articles are online anymore so if you want to read...hit the library
St. Louis, Missouri
Gregory Vogelweid, St. Patrick’s Center. Jeremy Kohler, "City’s handling of homeless is challenged." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 22, 2004;
Jeremy Kohler and Tim "O’Neil, "Judge strikes down community court." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 23, 2004;
Associated Press, "St. Louis concedes cleanup detail was wrong for homeless." The Columbia Daily Tribune. September 24, 2004;
Tim O"Neil, "Cleanup detail was wrong, city says." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 24, 2004;
Betsy Taylor, "Judge blocks removing homeless off the streets without cause." Associated Press. October 15, 2004.
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STL63101 wrote:From the ACLU website...illeagal to be homeles
none of the articles are online anymore so if you want to read...hit the library
St. Louis, Missouri
Gregory Vogelweid, St. Patrick’s Center. Jeremy Kohler, "City’s handling of homeless is challenged." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 22, 2004;
Jeremy Kohler and Tim "O’Neil, "Judge strikes down community court." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 23, 2004;
Associated Press, "St. Louis concedes cleanup detail was wrong for homeless." The Columbia Daily Tribune. September 24, 2004;
Tim O"Neil, "Cleanup detail was wrong, city says." St. Louis Post-Dispatch. September 24, 2004;
Betsy Taylor, "Judge blocks removing homeless off the streets without cause." Associated Press. October 15, 2004.
As I suspected. So reddragon is wrong.
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From the ACLU website...illeagal to be homeles ......
As Jim White used to say, "save us from the good people"
As Jim White used to say, "save us from the good people"
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DeBaliviere wrote:This is a tough thread to moderate.
No kidding. You can say that again. Wait...never mind...I'll save you the trouble!
This is a tough thread to moderate!
or all the crime downtown, a larger portion comes from the big events that occur downtown (Cards/Rams/Blues games, concerts, employment center, conventions, festivals, etc.).
Umm, not the people that actually GO to these events, but rather the little vagrants that go to prey on the actual patrons. This should be blatantly obvious to anyone that isn't retarded.
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JCity wrote:or all the crime downtown, a larger portion comes from the big events that occur downtown (Cards/Rams/Blues games, concerts, employment center, conventions, festivals, etc.).
Umm, not the people that actually GO to these events, but rather the little vagrants that go to prey on the actual patrons. This should be blatantly obvious to anyone that isn't retarded.
Wait, is this really true? Are we talking about car break-ins etc.?
DeBaliviere wrote:This is a tough thread to moderate.
This is a tough thread to read.
centeral , i did not say that, again you are living up to your name. did I say what you said? ,, hmmm no. i said the police can not. humm... seems no matter what i post you try to prove me wrong, but CHACHING ,... a friend found something for me,, seems that city tax payers helped to cover the cost of the blue building and oh wow tihs is surprising huh, just a start 1818 washington got a tax relief and funding. proof .. that is easy now, teusday november 14, 2006 . funny, seem a lot or ordinances passed at that time where for what? board billno.270,board bill 273,board bill 274,sectoin99.939. the tax relief is to all lofts in down town. i come to relize that the best way to get the piont out is to put ALL the information , not just here but on the street, so all voters can decide.
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reddragon wrote:centeral , i did not say that, again you are living up to your name. did I say what you said? ,, hmmm no. i said the police can not. humm... seems no matter what i post you try to prove me wrong, but CHACHING
You can't seem to keep your story straight, can you? You said that pearsons couldn't tell another pearson a license plate number. Or something to that effect.
I have no idea who or what "CHACHING" is.
reddragon wrote:,... a friend found something for me,, seems that city tax payers helped to cover the cost of the blue building and oh wow tihs is surprising huh, just a start 1818 washington got a tax relief and funding. proof .. that is easy now, teusday november 14, 2006 . funny, seem a lot or ordinances passed at that time where for what? board billno.270,board bill 273,board bill 274,sectoin99.939. the tax relief is to all lofts in down town. i come to relize that the best way to get the piont out is to put ALL the information , not just here but on the street, so all voters can decide.
Ummmm......OK, I guess? I have no idea what you just said.
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This is nuts.
I hope that more buildings are converted like the Blu Space building. This could be a vibrant community that contributes to the Gateway Mall scene and Union Station. I do not hope that people are forced from their apartments however. Let's first hope that management issues can be worked out and people can live in a safe environment.
I hope that more buildings are converted like the Blu Space building. This could be a vibrant community that contributes to the Gateway Mall scene and Union Station. I do not hope that people are forced from their apartments however. Let's first hope that management issues can be worked out and people can live in a safe environment.
From a sociological perspective, when such high concentrations of low-income persons are located in one area, there is likely to be decay. When low-income persons are spread more diffusely, crime is reduced and neighborhoods improve. Unfortunately, there is a high concentration of low-income persons in the Plaza Square apartments. Ideally, there should be some economic diversity within both a building and a neighborhood.
I believe what Plaza Square needs is a fresh start. They don't have to be rehabbed as lofts. It will continue to be a crime-ridden area until a better mix of cheaper and moderately-priced apartments are offered. Economic diversity is needed to transform this area from the "ghetto" it currently is into a respectable environment.
Alternatively, and for near-term needs, here's a list of 311 apartments with rent below $425/month located on Craigslist: http://tinyurl.com/29g3jd.
Reddragon is confident that he will stick things out after he admits that many are leaving Plaza Square. Realistically, if more and more people leave, the apartments will go out of business and the rebirth can begin.
I can understand the resistance; people naturally resist change. But this change is both positive and inevitable so there's not much use fighting. It's about transforming this area from a ghetto into a safer neighborhood for mixed-income use; not just for low income persons.
I believe what Plaza Square needs is a fresh start. They don't have to be rehabbed as lofts. It will continue to be a crime-ridden area until a better mix of cheaper and moderately-priced apartments are offered. Economic diversity is needed to transform this area from the "ghetto" it currently is into a respectable environment.
Alternatively, and for near-term needs, here's a list of 311 apartments with rent below $425/month located on Craigslist: http://tinyurl.com/29g3jd.
Reddragon is confident that he will stick things out after he admits that many are leaving Plaza Square. Realistically, if more and more people leave, the apartments will go out of business and the rebirth can begin.
I can understand the resistance; people naturally resist change. But this change is both positive and inevitable so there's not much use fighting. It's about transforming this area from a ghetto into a safer neighborhood for mixed-income use; not just for low income persons.
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I just want to point out that I don't believe this is the resident's fault. I agree with innov8ion. When a large number of low income residents are crowded together the lack of political/market influence is multiplied. A building with mixed-income residents will force more people to listen to problems and find solutions before it gets to where this buidling is now.
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this thread is great...
It be so graet dat I think i'm gonna create annothre alias and start a nuw thread. N dis thred I's wil attempd too spel bad ,, and mak outrage-us claims lik i enventd da queston-marc. Den evereeone wil accusse me off being a trol adn I's wil contineu too purpusly stir da pot.
Dem's was jokes. I's wont reely be start'n a's nuw thred
It be so graet dat I think i'm gonna create annothre alias and start a nuw thread. N dis thred I's wil attempd too spel bad ,, and mak outrage-us claims lik i enventd da queston-marc. Den evereeone wil accusse me off being a trol adn I's wil contineu too purpusly stir da pot.
Dem's was jokes. I's wont reely be start'n a's nuw thred