Measuring St. Louis Against Other U.S. Cities

STLCityMike · PostJan 03, 2024#6612024-01-03T01:45+00:00

Great to see how we compare to some of our peers / larger Midwest metro areas. There are other green metros on the map, which would be ahead of us (though, they are smaller). Took a stab at identifying them:

Larger Metros:
Omaha
Grand Rapids

Smaller ones (I think, some surprise me):
Kalamazoo MI?
Battle Creek MI?
Bay City and Saginaw MI?
Kankakee IL?
Decatur IL?

quincunx · PostDec 14, 2025#6622025-12-14T12:22+00:00

Guess who wins

gary kreie · PostDec 29, 2025#6632025-12-29T13:07+00:00

Fun with AI. I asked Google Gemini AI, "Is it true that St. Louis city sells more major league tickets per resident than any city in North America?" Its reply included, "...the claim that it sells more major league tickets per resident than any other city is not strictly true...". And included other statistical and historical words.

So then I asked it, "If not strictly true, is it technically true?" Google Gemini's reply included, "While not "strictly" true in an absolute sense, the claim is technically true depending on the specific metrics and historical context you use." And then it had paragraphs of explanation blah blah blah.

PostDec 29, 2025#6642025-12-29T13:24+00:00

DELETED.

PostDec 29, 2025#6652025-12-29T13:34+00:00

Fun with AI part 2. I finally just asked Gemini AI, "Show a list of the top 10 North American cities ranked by major league tickets sold per city resident." After a few weasel words about "fan density" and the "denominated effect", it provided this list:

Top 10 Cities by Tickets Sold Per City Resident (2025)

Rank	City	Key Per Capita Strength
1	St. Louis, MO	St. Louis CITY SC sold out 100% of matches, and the Cardinals maintain one of MLB's highest attendance-to-population ratios.
2	Pittsburgh, PA	Consistently ranked as a top sports city due to extreme fan engagement across NFL, NHL, and MLB despite a small city population.
3	Milwaukee, WI	Often leads MLB in tickets sold per resident, with the Brewers outperforming many large-market teams in raw attendance.
4	Boston, MA	The top-ranked overall sports city for 2025; its density across four major sports is among the highest in North America.
5	Green Bay, WI	Technically the highest in the NFL; with only ~107,000 residents, it sells over 70,000 tickets per game.
6	Buffalo, NY	A midsize city leader with elite per capita ticket sales for the Bills (NFL) and Sabres (NHL).
7	Cincinnati, OH	High "fan engagement" scores for baseball and soccer (FC Cincinnati), which routinely draws over 23,000 fans per match.
8	Atlanta, GA	Home to Atlanta United, which leads North American soccer in total attendance (avg. 45,600) relative to city size.
9	Kansas City, MO	Strong per capita performance driven by the Chiefs and high engagement for the Royals.
10	Minneapolis, MN	Ranked highly for baseball fans and overall sports density across five major leagues.

STLAPTS · PostDec 29, 2025#6662025-12-29T23:15+00:00

gary kreie wrote: ↑
Dec 29, 2025
Fun with AI part 2. I finally just asked Gemini AI, "Show a list of the top 10 North American cities ranked by major league tickets sold per city resident." After a few weasel words about "fan density" and the "denominated effect", it provided this list:

Top 10 Cities by Tickets Sold Per City Resident (2025)

Rank City Key Per Capita Strength

1 St. Louis, MO St. Louis CITY SC sold out 100% of matches, and the Cardinals maintain one of MLB's highest attendance-to-population ratios.

2 Pittsburgh, PA Consistently ranked as a top sports city due to extreme fan engagement across NFL, NHL, and MLB despite a small city population.

3 Milwaukee, WI Often leads MLB in tickets sold per resident, with the Brewers outperforming many large-market teams in raw attendance.

4 Boston, MA The top-ranked overall sports city for 2025; its density across four major sports is among the highest in North America.

5 Green Bay, WI Technically the highest in the NFL; with only ~107,000 residents, it sells over 70,000 tickets per game.

6 Buffalo, NY A midsize city leader with elite per capita ticket sales for the Bills (NFL) and Sabres (NHL).

7 Cincinnati, OH High "fan engagement" scores for baseball and soccer (FC Cincinnati), which routinely draws over 23,000 fans per match.

8 Atlanta, GA Home to Atlanta United, which leads North American soccer in total attendance (avg. 45,600) relative to city size.

9 Kansas City, MO Strong per capita performance driven by the Chiefs and high engagement for the Royals.

10 Minneapolis, MN Ranked highly for baseball fans and overall sports density across five major leagues.

Twin's fans don't show up. They have to be close to the bottom of the league for attendance.

dweebe · PostDec 30, 2025#6672025-12-30T05:08+00:00

STLAPTS wrote: ↑
Dec 29, 2025
Twin's fans don't show up. They have to be close to the bottom of the league for attendance.

Plus at the Target Center they tarp off sections for the Timberwolves games. Even playoffs.

gary kreie · PostDec 30, 2025#6682025-12-30T13:04+00:00

Google Gemini gives interesting results for what it calls the "denominated effect". Go to Google Gemini and type,
"In what city rankings does St. Louis rank unusually high due to the denominated effect?"
After the first result, type "more". Then type "yes" each time it asks if it should go further. It eventually shows our city vs metro ranking -- showing as a metro area, we are pretty much like all other Midwest metros our size.

I like this interesting observation Gemini came up with on it's own:

Land Area Comparison
St. Louis is officially 61.9 square miles of land. Here is how many "St. Louises" could fit inside the legal boundaries of other cities:

City	Land Area (Sq Miles)	Number of St. Louises
St. Louis, MO	62	1
Columbus, OH	~220	3.5
Kansas City, MO	315	5
Oklahoma City, OK	607	9.8
Jacksonville, FL	747	12

stlgasm · Post7:16 PM - Apr 19#6692026-04-19T19:16+00:00

I just got back from my cousin's wedding in Cleveland, another hard luck city that has a lot in common with St. Louis. I have been to Cleveland a number of times over the years, and the city seems to be on the upswing. Some observations...

I stayed in the eastern suburbs, and Cleveland is way ahead of St. Louis in terms of mixed-use suburban lifestyle centers. There are several really nice mixed-use districts around Shaker Heights/Beachwood area that should be a model for similar developments in the suburbs of St. Louis. All of them were vibrant and pleasant with a great mix of shopping, dining and services. They didn't feel too contrived at all either. Ladue Crossing and Brentwood Promenade should've emulated these concepts instead of the clusterf*** crap we got instead. Take notes, St. Louis:
Van Aken District
Legacy Village
Pinecrest
Crocker Park

St. Louis is a more beautiful city, and it's not really even close. Cleveland has some great historic neighborhoods for sure, but generally speaking the residential and commercial architecture feels very basic and utilitarian compared to the rich, stately tightly-packed brick architecture that predominates in St. Louis. Outside of downtown, St. Louis feels more "big city" and grand.

Downtown Cleveland is miles ahead of downtown St. Louis in terms of commerce and vibrancy. Although I saw one or two large empty buildings, there weren't very many vacant storefronts (at least compared to St. Louis). In downtown Cleveland you will find high-end clothing stores, any type of restaurant you want from casual to upscale, and even a market that's open 24 hours in the heart of the CBD. Steady pedestrian traffic too throughout downtown, and lots of busy bus stops and transfer stations. And yet, Cleveland still has a bit of a gritty, dated vibe that I happen to appreciate- not all prettied up to cater to tourists.

Overall, Cleveland feels very comfortable and familiar. Being from St. Louis, Clevelanders seem very relatable to me- they are of similar ilk for sure. Anyone who loves St. Louis has to respect Cleveland--two classic American heavyweights!

StlAlex · Post9:56 PM - Apr 19#6702026-04-19T21:56+00:00

You're not gonna believe it but Cleveland's business sector wants the city to succeed, St. Louis' does not. The fact the city is part of the county also plays a factor.

Additionally, Cleveland's downtown transfer, Tower City, is way better than Civic Center. Remember Metro removed nearly all the intra-downtown busses in like 2009 due to lack of funding, funding they could have gotten if the county's voter base included the city.

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PeterXCV · Post10:14 PM - Apr 19#6712026-04-19T22:14+00:00

Metro removed the busses in 2009 because of funding, yes, but they didn't bring them back after the county passed a sales tax to fund metro in 2010. Metro didn't want to run busses downtown, favoring all the routes to terminate at civic center, which they doubled the size of a few years ago.

A lot of Metro's bad decisions are their own, not just a lack of funding. That'd help, obviously, but their transit planning's not good.

Anyway, I appreciate the Cleveland reportback.

PlatinumBlues · Post10:16 PM - Apr 19#6722026-04-19T22:16+00:00

Cleveland is one of my favorite cities I tell people a city they should visit is Cleveland & they give me blank stares…..Downtown Cleveland is far better than Downtown St.Louis it’s not even close. Our downtown needs several big wins. Kudos to Cleveland I hope they keep turning the tide.

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StlAlex · Post11:48 PM - Apr 19#6732026-04-19T23:48+00:00

PeterXCV wrote:Metro removed the busses in 2009 because of funding, yes, but they didn't bring them back after the county passed a sales tax to fund metro in 2010. Metro didn't want to run busses downtown, favoring all the routes to terminate at civic center, which they doubled the size of a few years ago.

A lot of Metro's bad decisions are their own, not just a lack of funding. That'd help, obviously, but their transit planning's not good.

Anyway, I appreciate the Cleveland reportback.

They favored that because it saved money.

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Post11:49 PM - Apr 19#6742026-04-19T23:49+00:00

PlatinumBlues wrote:Cleveland is one of my favorite cities I tell people a city they should visit is Cleveland & they give me blank stares…..Downtown Cleveland is far better than Downtown St.Louis it’s not even close. Our downtown needs several big wins. Kudos to Cleveland I hope they keep turning the tide.

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Cleveland reveals how easy things would be if even just a handful of companies took a genuine investment in downtown.

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PeterXCV · Post12:15 AM - Apr 20#6752026-04-20T00:15+00:00

StlAlex wrote: ↑
11:48 PM - Apr 19
PeterXCV wrote:Metro removed the busses in 2009 because of funding, yes, but they didn't bring them back after the county passed a sales tax to fund metro in 2010. Metro didn't want to run busses downtown, favoring all the routes to terminate at civic center, which they doubled the size of a few years ago.

A lot of Metro's bad decisions are their own, not just a lack of funding. That'd help, obviously, but their transit planning's not good.

Anyway, I appreciate the Cleveland reportback.
They favored that because it saved money.

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Bro omg, it cost a lot of money to redo Civic Center the way they did and also they explicitly said moving south city buses out of Downtown would improve on time performance.

StlAlex · Post12:31 AM - Apr 20#6762026-04-20T00:31+00:00

PeterXCV wrote:
StlAlex wrote: ↑
11:48 PM - Apr 19
PeterXCV wrote:Metro removed the busses in 2009 because of funding, yes, but they didn't bring them back after the county passed a sales tax to fund metro in 2010. Metro didn't want to run busses downtown, favoring all the routes to terminate at civic center, which they doubled the size of a few years ago.

A lot of Metro's bad decisions are their own, not just a lack of funding. That'd help, obviously, but their transit planning's not good.

Anyway, I appreciate the Cleveland reportback.
They favored that because it saved money.

Sent from my SM-S936U using Tapatalk
Bro omg, it cost a lot of money to redo Civic Center the way they did and also they explicitly said moving south city buses out of Downtown would improve on time performance.

Capital costs can't be compared to operating costs and it used over $8 million in federal funds.

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DogtownBnR · Post1:55 PM - Apr 20#6772026-04-20T13:55+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Jan 03, 2024
3rd fastest growing economy in the Midwest since 2019

What is fueling the growth in GDP in Indy? Fed-Ex expansion? I know they have the capital city advantage & it is really the only big city in the state, but just curious if I'm overlooking something.

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 · Post5:41 PM - Apr 20#6782026-04-20T17:41+00:00

Was just there - Salesforce, Indy 500, NCAA final four - they have a lot of action. The downtown falls off pretty quick to the south, but the NW side is expanding into IU/Purdue and other stuff along the canal.

DogtownBnR · Post6:20 PM - Apr 20#6792026-04-20T18:20+00:00

^I guess we need to build a canal, get an NFL team with a world class venue, then host the Final 4 & get our major corporations to locate employees Downtown.

We have a lot of work to do!

StlAlex · Post6:28 PM - Apr 20#6802026-04-20T18:28+00:00

Eli Lilly too. Salesforce quickly filled up the space vacated by Chase Bank in their tallest building back in 2018 or 2019.

A lot of good comes from the entire region being bought in on the core.

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TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 · Post1:32 PM - Apr 22#6812026-04-22T13:32+00:00

ALSO - While I was there Indy (<48hrs) had two murders downtown adjacent and a shooting at monument circle. So whoever says they are light years ahead of us…

StlAlex · Post3:54 PM - Apr 22#6822026-04-22T15:54+00:00

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote:ALSO - While I was there Indy (<48hrs) had two murders downtown adjacent and a shooting at monument circle. So whoever says they are light years ahead of us…

Shootings are much more common in downtown Indy than downtown STL, but they don't carry the same debilitating blow to its reputation.

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BarryGlick · Post4:10 PM - Apr 22#6832026-04-22T16:10+00:00

Shootings are much more common in downtown Indy than downtown STL
ok
data?

StlAlex · Post4:43 PM - Apr 22#6842026-04-22T16:43+00:00

BarryGlick wrote:Shootings are much more common in downtown Indy than downtown STL
ok
data?

Yes. There was a massive shooting literally right outside the PNC office, Steak and Shake, Dick's Last Resort, and Hyatt Regency back in 2024, basically no long term impacts. Peabody was hit by gunfire one night and they leave. That's the difference I'm referring to.

https://www.wfyi.org/wfyi-news/2024-03- ... s-saturday

https://fox59.com/news/3-injured-in-dow ... -shooting/

This one happened right outside of a T-Mobile store and a block away from a Burlington, Weber Gill, Panera. All are still open and in business.

Mass shootings happen faily often in downtown Indy but they just don't carry the same consequences as if they happened in St. Louis.

Edit: Can't really get good data because IMPD has much less transparent crime stats that are much harder to access than STL's.

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dblarsen314 · Post7:28 PM - Apr 22#6852026-04-22T19:28+00:00

One thing I will say, if when considering Indy, is that they have never been a major urban center compared to the other largest cities in the country like St. Louis was. Sure it's been one of if not the largest in the state, with strong economic competition from Gary in its past. But not only is it the Capitol, it's the singular, largest city/region in the state, a state/city that has lost residents to other more urban, big-time cities around the country. It has a chip-on-its-shoulder and wants to level-up. It's always been more of a cow-town for a hoosier/big ag state.

I'd love for us as a community to do what we can to encourage and incentivize our major public companies to locate their HQ's and offices in the city, downtown preferably. As a big fan of a reinvisioned Chouteau's Lake, I'd also love to see Ameren, and Purina (to an extent) to rebuild their campuses to feed off of this asset. Could be our equivalent of Indy's Downtown Canal, but I think it would have a much larger impact and help to connect Downtown with the neighborhoods to the South. The fact that Mayor Slay nixed that plan because of fears he had that it would compete with Ballpark Village is infuriating. And Rawlings moving to Westport is laughable, we should have done any and everything to have them next to Busch. I don't know what is wrong with their leadership so short-sighted!

Measuring St. Louis Against Other U.S. Cities

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