add "right to work" here too, correct? MAGA MO Legislature passed it originally, then voter signatures collected put it on the ballot for a referendum where it failed. This is also why MAGA Mo is trying to change the referendum process to no longer allow such things.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023What's sad is that Medicaid Expansion and Legal Marijuana shows that the average Missourian is probably considerably more moderate than their state representative. I don't know what can be done, but something has to change. I was recently in Mississippi and Louisiana. We do not want to be in the same conversation as those two states.soulardx wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023pair this with a state government MAGA super majority who literally wants 2023 Missouri to be 1950 Missouri and we have quite a few challenges.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023
I would agree with this. When you travel around the country, coming back to St. Louis is like going back atleast 20-30 years in the past.
For your information, I was born in the city of St. Louis, own property in St. Louis County, have worked for St. Louis Public Schools etc. I have seen the worst of the worst of St. Louis and I've never said St. Louis sucks or that I hate it. To the contrary, I really love my hometown and think it has so much potential. Many people leave St. Louis and hate it with a passion, they don't care about it at all and are ashamed to say they are from St. Louis. These posts are just opinions based on my own personal experiences. They are the kind of critiques that a concerned family member may give, coming from a place of love not hate. I believe part of the current problem in St. Louis is that it's such an echo chamber and many locals have the "if you don't like it leave" mentality and unfortunately for the region, that's what they do. Also, I've said a lot of good things about St. Louis on this forum and you've never acknowledged that. I believe this my 17th year on this forum. You've been on this forum for like 4 years? This forum is actually way more sanitized compared to when Alex ran it. Those days we would have really ugly debates.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023And all that you’d like to speak on is how you think St Louis sucks. We really don’t need more clowns like you who hate this place. We already have plenty.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023I've been on this forum for nearly 20 years. I've also written a couple of articles for this site. I can speak on whatever I'd like.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023
You are the most useless poster on here. I hope you have a terrible day in the oh-so-advanced city you live in.
Yes, I hope the legislature does not change the referendum process.soulardx wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023add "right to work" here too, correct? MAGA MO Legislature passed it originally, then voter signatures collected put it on the ballot for a referendum where it failed. This is also why MAGA Mo is trying to change the referendum process to no longer allow such things.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023What's sad is that Medicaid Expansion and Legal Marijuana shows that the average Missourian is probably considerably more moderate than their state representative. I don't know what can be done, but something has to change. I was recently in Mississippi and Louisiana. We do not want to be in the same conversation as those two states.soulardx wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023pair this with a state government MAGA super majority who literally wants 2023 Missouri to be 1950 Missouri and we have quite a few challenges.
Everyone be nice to each other. Differing opinions are allowed to be shared. No need for personal attacks. Disagree, discuss, and argue the topic, not each other. It costs nothing to be kind.
- 6,117
I'd ignore JJG. I think we probably all know who the most useless poster here is. But Jane Jacob's Ghost is trying hard to become the second person on my personal ignore list. You're fine Goat. I may disagree with you sometimes, but I for one am glad you're here.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023For your information, I was born in the city of St. Louis, own property in St. Louis County, have worked for St. Louis Public Schools etc. I have seen the worst of the worst of St. Louis and I've never said St. Louis sucks or that I hate it. To the contrary, I really love my hometown and think it has so much potential. Many people leave St. Louis and hate it with a passion, they don't care about it at all and are ashamed to say they are from St. Louis. These posts are just opinions based on my own personal experiences. They are the kind of critiques that a concerned family member may give, coming from a place of love not hate. I believe part of the current problem in St. Louis is that it's such an echo chamber and many locals have the "if you don't like it leave" mentality and unfortunately for the region, that's what they do. Also, I've said a lot of good things about St. Louis on this forum and you've never acknowledged that. I believe this my 17th year on this forum. You've been on this forum for like 4 years? This forum is actually way more sanitized compared to when Alex ran it. Those days we would have really ugly debates.
I’m on vacation. But I actually agree with you about Goat and others that don’t live here any longer. Either way…thanks for dragging me into this pointless bullsh*t…as*hole.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023No it didn’t. I’ve called GOAT out in other threads for his trash talk. And I’ll keep doing it when I see it.framer wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023That shot at goat came out of nowhere. Completely uncalled-for.
You typically share his loathsome perspective so I’m not surprised you’re in his corner. Where’s SC4Mayor? I’m sure he’ll back you both up.
You caught a stray. Courtesy of the GOAT!!! I hate that for you.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Apr 25, 2023I’m on vacation. But I actually agree with you about Goat and others that don’t live here any longer. Either way…thanks for dragging me into this pointless bullsh*t…as*hole.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023No it didn’t. I’ve called GOAT out in other threads for his trash talk. And I’ll keep doing it when I see it.framer wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023That shot at goat came out of nowhere. Completely uncalled-for.
You typically share his loathsome perspective so I’m not surprised you’re in his corner. Where’s SC4Mayor? I’m sure he’ll back you both up.
Can you please elaborate on this more? Legitimately asking. I have a friend who used to live here, but now lives on the East Coast, and said the same thing. I chalked it up to him spending most of his time in a village of Madison County (in-laws) when he visits, but seeing this made me wonder what another person in a similar situation sees. I could see a few years (I guess), but I always thought decades was a bit of hyperbole.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023I would agree with this. When you travel around the country, coming back to St. Louis is like going back atleast 20-30 years in the past.imperialmog wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023I had a thought is that most of the powers that be and large sections of the metro area have been wanting things to largely stay in a 1950s stasis. The differencies in parties in large part was about which parts they wanted to focus on most for staying in the 50s, either in social culture or in employment and job markets.LArchitecture wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023That last part you said about change is so true. I regularly attend meetings for developments, city planning, etc and there’s residents that’s show up just to state “we don’t like change”. It’s complacency at its finest. As that same person will most likely comment on crime a day later.
For further context, they live in the suburbs of DC and I've visited a few times. Nice place, but I never thought I had stepped into the future or that I've been missing out on some list of modern life amenities. But maybe I just have a blind spot or can't grasp it within the timeframe of a visit.
In my experience, places in a demographic spring have a totally different vibe than places that are in a demographic winter. For example, Dallas, DC, Tampa, Nashville feel more vibrant, optimistic, newer than St. Louis, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc. Does that mean the latter aren't modern cities with modern amenities? No, but demographically they represent the past way more than the future and that gives off a vibe.EssTeeEll wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023Can you please elaborate on this more? Legitimately asking. I have a friend who used to live here, but now lives on the East Coast, and said the same thing. I chalked it up to him spending most of his time in a village of Madison County (in-laws) when he visits, but seeing this made me wonder what another person in a similar situation sees. I could see a few years (I guess), but I always thought decades was a bit of hyperbole.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023I would agree with this. When you travel around the country, coming back to St. Louis is like going back atleast 20-30 years in the past.imperialmog wrote: ↑Apr 24, 2023I had a thought is that most of the powers that be and large sections of the metro area have been wanting things to largely stay in a 1950s stasis. The differencies in parties in large part was about which parts they wanted to focus on most for staying in the 50s, either in social culture or in employment and job markets.
For further context, they live in the suburbs of DC and I've visited a few times. Nice place, but I never thought I had stepped into the future or that I've been missing out on some list of modern life amenities. But maybe I just have a blind spot or can't grasp it within the timeframe of a visit.
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Besides crime, our biggest hurdle towards that vibrant feeling city is vacancy and abandonment. Boston is old as hell, but nobody complains about it being outdated.
We have stunning residential architecture, but half the city sees that architecture in ruin, surrounded by empty lots.
We have fantastic neighborhoods and retail corridors, but those are interrupted by surface parking lots, filled with unsafe roads, and surrounded by fast food joints.
Downtown and the central corridor are booming, but are completely isolated from their surrounding neighborhoods. New construction is rare and huge buildings/parking garages sit abandoned and crumbling.
South City is dense, beautiful, and full of culture, yet interconnectivity sucks. We still only have central corridor metrolink. Our bike infrastructure is embarrassing compared to peer cities, we have the potential to be a bike paradise yet I find myself biking far less than when I lived in COMO. The Brickline is awesome but it's crazy how celebrated it is here when it's just accomplishing the bare minimum. By the time it's finished in 2028(?) we will have caught up with Indianapolis in 2014! Hanging around a city like Minneapolis really drives home how behind we are.
STL politics are as blue as they get, yet city government continues to disappoint year after year. Plus, we are located in Missouri which doesn't help our reputation.
I got on a roll and went a bit further than vacancy, sue me.
I love STL and will probably never leave the city, but my god this city is frustrating. We have so many things going for us, but face just as many challenges. I feel like overall we are moving in the right direction on most of these issues, albeit slowly. Hopefully it's one of those things where we slowly make progress then it suddenly comes all at once.
We have stunning residential architecture, but half the city sees that architecture in ruin, surrounded by empty lots.
We have fantastic neighborhoods and retail corridors, but those are interrupted by surface parking lots, filled with unsafe roads, and surrounded by fast food joints.
Downtown and the central corridor are booming, but are completely isolated from their surrounding neighborhoods. New construction is rare and huge buildings/parking garages sit abandoned and crumbling.
South City is dense, beautiful, and full of culture, yet interconnectivity sucks. We still only have central corridor metrolink. Our bike infrastructure is embarrassing compared to peer cities, we have the potential to be a bike paradise yet I find myself biking far less than when I lived in COMO. The Brickline is awesome but it's crazy how celebrated it is here when it's just accomplishing the bare minimum. By the time it's finished in 2028(?) we will have caught up with Indianapolis in 2014! Hanging around a city like Minneapolis really drives home how behind we are.
STL politics are as blue as they get, yet city government continues to disappoint year after year. Plus, we are located in Missouri which doesn't help our reputation.
I got on a roll and went a bit further than vacancy, sue me.
I love STL and will probably never leave the city, but my god this city is frustrating. We have so many things going for us, but face just as many challenges. I feel like overall we are moving in the right direction on most of these issues, albeit slowly. Hopefully it's one of those things where we slowly make progress then it suddenly comes all at once.
I agree, St. Louis just needs more development and people. It's a beautiful historic city, but unfortunately your city will just be labeled as old and rundown if there isn't a sufficient amount of modern development to complement the historic fabric. I've always said that St. Louis' biggest hindrance is weak leadership with poor vision and a dysfunctional government structure. There is no excuse for Nashville to be booming the way it is, when St. Louis has so much more potential. The fact that places like Indianapolis and Columbus also are growing at a healthy clip relative to St. Louis should also be a major red flag for local leadership. It's like our political and corporate leadership is sleep at the wheel. Greater St. Louis Inc. is saying all the right things now, but I hope it's not too little too late.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023Besides crime, our biggest hurdle towards that vibrant feeling city is vacancy and abandonment. Boston is old as hell, but nobody complains about it being outdated.
We have stunning residential architecture, but half the city sees that architecture in ruin, surrounded by empty lots.
We have fantastic neighborhoods and retail corridors, but those are interrupted by surface parking lots, filled with unsafe roads, and surrounded by fast food joints.
Downtown and the central corridor are booming, but are completely isolated from their surrounding neighborhoods. New construction is rare and huge buildings/parking garages sit abandoned and crumbling.
South City is dense, beautiful, and full of culture, yet interconnectivity sucks. We still only have central corridor metrolink. Our bike infrastructure is embarrassing compared to peer cities, we have the potential to be a bike paradise yet I find myself biking far less than when I lived in COMO. The Brickline is awesome but it's crazy how celebrated it is here when it's just accomplishing the bare minimum. By the time it's finished in 2028(?) we will have caught up with Indianapolis in 2014! Hanging around a city like Minneapolis really drives home how behind we are.
STL politics are as blue as they get, yet city government continues to disappoint year after year. Plus, we are located in Missouri which doesn't help our reputation.
I got on a roll and went a bit further than vacancy, sue me.
I love STL and will probably never leave the city, but my god this city is frustrating. We have so many things going for us, but face just as many challenges. I feel like overall we are moving in the right direction on most of these issues, albeit slowly. Hopefully it's one of those things where we slowly make progress then it suddenly comes all at once.
^^This 100%.
Last night I took a drive from my home in Holly Hills up Kingshighway to the Home Depot. The roads were absolute garbage from Christy to Fyler, a 2-3 mile stretch, like full of holes and former holes that had been patched a dozen times years prior but never permanently fixed, mixed with sloppily poured new concrete pads where Spire recently dug up old gas lines. Trash is everywhere.
Along that route are multiple strip malls, auto dealerships, and the occasional mixed-use building from a bygone era, e.g. the 4/5 story one with the terra cotta façade on the NW corner at Chippewa that Garcia Brothers are slowly restoring. I'm going to guess roughly one third was totally abandoned, another third was generic "poor people" staples, e.g. dollar stores, rent-to-owns, pawn shops, tattoo parlors, and pay-day loans, and the remainder were generic big box stores and chain restaurants.
There are a few "modern" (by which I just mean local and not sh*tty) spots, notably the aforementioned Garcia Bros rehab projects, but still there was no sign of life other than car traffic. The whole area looks like a post-apocalyptic wasteland. And this is a main thoroughfare through a "nice" part of the City.
I absolutely love my neighborhood and know there are more like it throughout the City, but its hard to stay positive beyond that. The development happening Downtown and in the Center Corridor is great, but they at best will attract tourists and people from the county here for an evening or maybe a weekend, rather than to relocate here. Even the residential development seems entirely focused on luring students and twenty-somethings here for their bachelor years before they flee back to the county to start families.
All of which is just a long-winded way of saying that I can fully understand anyone choosing to move away, whether to the Burbs or to another city, and finding StL to be decades behind upon return.
Last night I took a drive from my home in Holly Hills up Kingshighway to the Home Depot. The roads were absolute garbage from Christy to Fyler, a 2-3 mile stretch, like full of holes and former holes that had been patched a dozen times years prior but never permanently fixed, mixed with sloppily poured new concrete pads where Spire recently dug up old gas lines. Trash is everywhere.
Along that route are multiple strip malls, auto dealerships, and the occasional mixed-use building from a bygone era, e.g. the 4/5 story one with the terra cotta façade on the NW corner at Chippewa that Garcia Brothers are slowly restoring. I'm going to guess roughly one third was totally abandoned, another third was generic "poor people" staples, e.g. dollar stores, rent-to-owns, pawn shops, tattoo parlors, and pay-day loans, and the remainder were generic big box stores and chain restaurants.
There are a few "modern" (by which I just mean local and not sh*tty) spots, notably the aforementioned Garcia Bros rehab projects, but still there was no sign of life other than car traffic. The whole area looks like a post-apocalyptic wasteland. And this is a main thoroughfare through a "nice" part of the City.
I absolutely love my neighborhood and know there are more like it throughout the City, but its hard to stay positive beyond that. The development happening Downtown and in the Center Corridor is great, but they at best will attract tourists and people from the county here for an evening or maybe a weekend, rather than to relocate here. Even the residential development seems entirely focused on luring students and twenty-somethings here for their bachelor years before they flee back to the county to start families.
All of which is just a long-winded way of saying that I can fully understand anyone choosing to move away, whether to the Burbs or to another city, and finding StL to be decades behind upon return.
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Interesting is the examples you mention all have much more consolidated local government. There also is the competence factor in relation to leadership that seems to be another factor. The question is can said governments and leaders get their act together or would it require an outside force (say state government) to impose change.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023I agree, St. Louis just needs more development and people. It's a beautiful historic city, but unfortunately your city will just be labeled as old and rundown if there isn't a sufficient amount of modern development to complement the historic fabric. I've always said that St. Louis' biggest hindrance is weak leadership with poor vision and a dysfunctional government structure. There is no excuse for Nashville to be booming the way it is, when St. Louis has so much more potential. The fact that places like Indianapolis and Columbus also are growing at a healthy clip relative to St. Louis should also be a major red flag for local leadership. It's like our political and corporate leadership is sleep at the wheel. Greater St. Louis Inc. is saying all the right things now, but I hope it's not too little too late.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023Besides crime, our biggest hurdle towards that vibrant feeling city is vacancy and abandonment. Boston is old as hell, but nobody complains about it being outdated.
We have stunning residential architecture, but half the city sees that architecture in ruin, surrounded by empty lots.
We have fantastic neighborhoods and retail corridors, but those are interrupted by surface parking lots, filled with unsafe roads, and surrounded by fast food joints.
Downtown and the central corridor are booming, but are completely isolated from their surrounding neighborhoods. New construction is rare and huge buildings/parking garages sit abandoned and crumbling.
South City is dense, beautiful, and full of culture, yet interconnectivity sucks. We still only have central corridor metrolink. Our bike infrastructure is embarrassing compared to peer cities, we have the potential to be a bike paradise yet I find myself biking far less than when I lived in COMO. The Brickline is awesome but it's crazy how celebrated it is here when it's just accomplishing the bare minimum. By the time it's finished in 2028(?) we will have caught up with Indianapolis in 2014! Hanging around a city like Minneapolis really drives home how behind we are.
STL politics are as blue as they get, yet city government continues to disappoint year after year. Plus, we are located in Missouri which doesn't help our reputation.
I got on a roll and went a bit further than vacancy, sue me.
I love STL and will probably never leave the city, but my god this city is frustrating. We have so many things going for us, but face just as many challenges. I feel like overall we are moving in the right direction on most of these issues, albeit slowly. Hopefully it's one of those things where we slowly make progress then it suddenly comes all at once.
Would note that I'm not convinced state government for ideological reasons is a hinderance, mainly because there are a number of examples of state governments with similar ideological temperaments overseeing strong growth.
another element - the folks on this forum and the shared POVs we (mostly) have are the distinct minority in the region.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023I agree, St. Louis just needs more development and people. It's a beautiful historic city, but unfortunately your city will just be labeled as old and rundown if there isn't a sufficient amount of modern development to complement the historic fabric. I've always said that St. Louis' biggest hindrance is weak leadership with poor vision and a dysfunctional government structure. There is no excuse for Nashville to be booming the way it is, when St. Louis has so much more potential. The fact that places like Indianapolis and Columbus also are growing at a healthy clip relative to St. Louis should also be a major red flag for local leadership. It's like our political and corporate leadership is sleep at the wheel. Greater St. Louis Inc. is saying all the right things now, but I hope it's not too little too late.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023Besides crime, our biggest hurdle towards that vibrant feeling city is vacancy and abandonment. Boston is old as hell, but nobody complains about it being outdated.
We have stunning residential architecture, but half the city sees that architecture in ruin, surrounded by empty lots.
We have fantastic neighborhoods and retail corridors, but those are interrupted by surface parking lots, filled with unsafe roads, and surrounded by fast food joints.
Downtown and the central corridor are booming, but are completely isolated from their surrounding neighborhoods. New construction is rare and huge buildings/parking garages sit abandoned and crumbling.
South City is dense, beautiful, and full of culture, yet interconnectivity sucks. We still only have central corridor metrolink. Our bike infrastructure is embarrassing compared to peer cities, we have the potential to be a bike paradise yet I find myself biking far less than when I lived in COMO. The Brickline is awesome but it's crazy how celebrated it is here when it's just accomplishing the bare minimum. By the time it's finished in 2028(?) we will have caught up with Indianapolis in 2014! Hanging around a city like Minneapolis really drives home how behind we are.
STL politics are as blue as they get, yet city government continues to disappoint year after year. Plus, we are located in Missouri which doesn't help our reputation.
I got on a roll and went a bit further than vacancy, sue me.
I love STL and will probably never leave the city, but my god this city is frustrating. We have so many things going for us, but face just as many challenges. I feel like overall we are moving in the right direction on most of these issues, albeit slowly. Hopefully it's one of those things where we slowly make progress then it suddenly comes all at once.
The vast majority of STL regional residents and leaders do NOT want anything to change. They like STL how it is and was. status quo is the preferred reality for so so so many here.
and to be even more clear, STL has a disproportionally higher percentage of these status quo folks than the boomtowns.
The people who move to Austin, Dallas, Nashville, etc. *want* new and different. Those cities are magnets for people who do not like status quos that they've experienced in their prior home cities.
STL echo chambers old status quo
Boomtowns echo chamber new and different.
goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023I agree, St. Louis just needs more development and people. It's a beautiful historic city, but unfortunately your city will just be labeled as old and rundown if there isn't a sufficient amount of modern development to complement the historic fabric. I've always said that St. Louis' biggest hindrance is weak leadership with poor vision and a dysfunctional government structure. There is no excuse for Nashville to be booming the way it is, when St. Louis has so much more potential. The fact that places like Indianapolis and Columbus also are growing at a healthy clip relative to St. Louis should also be a major red flag for local leadership. It's like our political and corporate leadership is sleep at the wheel. Greater St. Louis Inc. is saying all the right things now, but I hope it's not too little too late.
- Nashville is the state capital. The state isn't trying to destroy it the way Missouri wants to tear down St. Louis.
- Tennessee has no state income tax.
- They've positioned themselves as a less sprawled out alternative as a southern HQ to the traffic hellhole that is Atlanta.
- Indianapolis and Columbus are also state capitals.
- Columbus has the main state university campus in-town and Indianapolis' is 45 minutes away.
Probably an outside force or some kind of real emergency. Better, more visionary leadership wouldn't hurt, but StL's problems are largely structural, e.g., the "weak mayor" system, too many wards (14 is better than 28), county offices, single ruling party, etc.. It took 40 years and an exceptionally charismatic and competent mayor (Raymond Tucker) to do basic Civil Service reform in the 1960s, something nearly every other City achieved in the first two decades of the 20th century. And it basically killed his political career. We've not had anyone in the Mayor's office of his caliber since, and we likely never will as they all find better things to do.imperialmog wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023Interesting is the examples you mention all have much more consolidated local government. There also is the competence factor in relation to leadership that seems to be another factor. The question is can said governments and leaders get their act together or would it require an outside force (say state government) to impose change.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023I agree, St. Louis just needs more development and people. It's a beautiful historic city, but unfortunately your city will just be labeled as old and rundown if there isn't a sufficient amount of modern development to complement the historic fabric. I've always said that St. Louis' biggest hindrance is weak leadership with poor vision and a dysfunctional government structure. There is no excuse for Nashville to be booming the way it is, when St. Louis has so much more potential. The fact that places like Indianapolis and Columbus also are growing at a healthy clip relative to St. Louis should also be a major red flag for local leadership. It's like our political and corporate leadership is sleep at the wheel. Greater St. Louis Inc. is saying all the right things now, but I hope it's not too little too late.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023Besides crime, our biggest hurdle towards that vibrant feeling city is vacancy and abandonment. Boston is old as hell, but nobody complains about it being outdated.
We have stunning residential architecture, but half the city sees that architecture in ruin, surrounded by empty lots.
We have fantastic neighborhoods and retail corridors, but those are interrupted by surface parking lots, filled with unsafe roads, and surrounded by fast food joints.
Downtown and the central corridor are booming, but are completely isolated from their surrounding neighborhoods. New construction is rare and huge buildings/parking garages sit abandoned and crumbling.
South City is dense, beautiful, and full of culture, yet interconnectivity sucks. We still only have central corridor metrolink. Our bike infrastructure is embarrassing compared to peer cities, we have the potential to be a bike paradise yet I find myself biking far less than when I lived in COMO. The Brickline is awesome but it's crazy how celebrated it is here when it's just accomplishing the bare minimum. By the time it's finished in 2028(?) we will have caught up with Indianapolis in 2014! Hanging around a city like Minneapolis really drives home how behind we are.
STL politics are as blue as they get, yet city government continues to disappoint year after year. Plus, we are located in Missouri which doesn't help our reputation.
I got on a roll and went a bit further than vacancy, sue me.
I love STL and will probably never leave the city, but my god this city is frustrating. We have so many things going for us, but face just as many challenges. I feel like overall we are moving in the right direction on most of these issues, albeit slowly. Hopefully it's one of those things where we slowly make progress then it suddenly comes all at once.
Would note that I'm not convinced state government for ideological reasons is a hinderance, mainly because there are a number of examples of state governments with similar ideological temperaments overseeing strong growth.
Nobody is coming to "save" us.
Related to the savior comment, the only time that's happened in the last 50 years was in *fiction* - Johnathan Frazen's novel "The Twenty-Seventh City."SB in BH wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023Probably an outside force or some kind of real emergency. Better, more visionary leadership wouldn't hurt, but StL's problems are largely structural, e.g., the "weak mayor" system, too many wards (14 is better than 28), county offices, single ruling party, etc.. It took 40 years and an exceptionally charismatic and competent mayor (Raymond Tucker) to do basic Civil Service reform in the 1960s, something nearly every other City achieved in the first two decades of the 20th century. And it basically killed his political career. We've not had anyone in the Mayor's office of his caliber since, and we likely never will as they all find better things to do.imperialmog wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023Interesting is the examples you mention all have much more consolidated local government. There also is the competence factor in relation to leadership that seems to be another factor. The question is can said governments and leaders get their act together or would it require an outside force (say state government) to impose change.goat314 wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023
I agree, St. Louis just needs more development and people. It's a beautiful historic city, but unfortunately your city will just be labeled as old and rundown if there isn't a sufficient amount of modern development to complement the historic fabric. I've always said that St. Louis' biggest hindrance is weak leadership with poor vision and a dysfunctional government structure. There is no excuse for Nashville to be booming the way it is, when St. Louis has so much more potential. The fact that places like Indianapolis and Columbus also are growing at a healthy clip relative to St. Louis should also be a major red flag for local leadership. It's like our political and corporate leadership is sleep at the wheel. Greater St. Louis Inc. is saying all the right things now, but I hope it's not too little too late.
Would note that I'm not convinced state government for ideological reasons is a hinderance, mainly because there are a number of examples of state governments with similar ideological temperaments overseeing strong growth.
Nobody is coming to "save" us.
And even the fictional savior couldn't make it work so she killed herself.
Seriously, for those that was to see how little STL has changed in the last 40 years, read that novel which reads more like non-fiction quite a bit. It could easily be about 2023.
^thanks for the reference, I'll check it out.
Rex Sinquefield (full disclosure, I interned at his thinktank in 2007) might have had the political clout and economic juice to lead a successful structural reform effort, but he squandered it with Better Together, which made a number of poor strategic choices that doomed it from the start. (Stenger gets to be the first Unigov Mayor w/o a public vote, holy sh*t!!!). I know there's the Board of Freeholders process and the Charter Commission thing, but those are slow processes that will likely still run into the buzzsaw of (1) county opposition and (2) status quo bias in City leadership. Someone above mentioned Greater StL as a potential vehicle for broader reform, but they strike me as *just* wanting a "better" status quo. Hard to believe that the radical change needed is going to come from the most comfortable of establishment leaders and institutions.
Rex Sinquefield (full disclosure, I interned at his thinktank in 2007) might have had the political clout and economic juice to lead a successful structural reform effort, but he squandered it with Better Together, which made a number of poor strategic choices that doomed it from the start. (Stenger gets to be the first Unigov Mayor w/o a public vote, holy sh*t!!!). I know there's the Board of Freeholders process and the Charter Commission thing, but those are slow processes that will likely still run into the buzzsaw of (1) county opposition and (2) status quo bias in City leadership. Someone above mentioned Greater StL as a potential vehicle for broader reform, but they strike me as *just* wanting a "better" status quo. Hard to believe that the radical change needed is going to come from the most comfortable of establishment leaders and institutions.
Similarly, the novel A Universe Less Travelled imagines a St. Louis that never experienced decline.
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Question will become where does the change come from?SB in BH wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023^thanks for the reference, I'll check it out.
Rex Sinquefield (full disclosure, I interned at his thinktank in 2007) might have had the political clout and economic juice to lead a successful structural reform effort, but he squandered it with Better Together, which made a number of poor strategic choices that doomed it from the start. (Stenger gets to be the first Unigov Mayor w/o a public vote, holy sh*t!!!). I know there's the Board of Freeholders process and the Charter Commission thing, but those are slow processes that will likely still run into the buzzsaw of (1) county opposition and (2) status quo bias in City leadership. Someone above mentioned Greater StL as a potential vehicle for broader reform, but they strike me as *just* wanting a "better" status quo. Hard to believe that the radical change needed is going to come from the most comfortable of establishment leaders and institutions.
Also how much did Ferguson and its aftermath derail efforts either by action of politicins, leaders, and public? Then again imagining an alternate scenario where that didn't happen likely butterflies away so many things.
I do a lot of travelling for work and have visited a lot of boom towns as of late. Austin, Dallas, Seattle, Atlanta, LA, etc... A couple things I've noticed in these towns that STL seems to be missing the mark on:
1. Urban planning / infrastructure. New development is arguably more pedestrian-friendly and ground-level interactive than a lot happening in STL. We are seeing a bit of this now, but it's much more limited than in these regions - probably due to growth more than anything. Streets, sidewalks, handicap accessibility, plantings, bus shelters on urban corridors are consistent and in relatively good shape in these cities. Due to lack of funding and all the work Spire and Ameren have done, our streets and sidewalks are an absolute disaster in many parts of the city. We also have inconsistent plantings, curb cuts, bus shelters, etc... It makes for a terrible driving and walking experience, and it's immediately visible to visitors.
2. Immigration. All of these metro areas have a significant immigrant population. Not only does this help with growth, many of these immigrants are willing to work jobs that many Americans no longer are willing to do. Our city would run smoother for both residents and visitors if we could help fill positions like trash truck drivers, bus drivers, shuttle drivers, construction, retail, etc... I think marketing ourselves as a great spot for immigrants to live, building some programs to support immigrants, and perhaps even incentivizing them to locate in our less desirable areas would provide multiple wins. We could actually start growing again AND fill a number of jobs that are open. Not to mention that immigrants are great entrepreneurs and add great culture. Immigrants can help us turn around and then start attracting in-migration from other parts of the US too. This to me would be the biggest bang for our buck.
3. Violent crime. No surprise here, but it really is a factor. We need to fix the prosecution issues in the city ASAP and enforce and prosecute violent criminals. We need to combine our police departments with STL County so we can improve salaries and get more police officers on our streets. Criminals need to understand that crime will NOT be tolerated.
In addition to having a better response to crimes that occur, we need a better solution for the root cause. Our leaders need to get out into the community and LEAD. Many kids in these neighborhoods see no path for success b/c they've had no parental support and grow up in violence. They need to understand that there is a different path and that our leadership WANTS and BACKS them to succeed. I don't think enough of this is occurring - particularly in schools and neighborhoods that need help.
Now, one benefit STL has that these don't is infrastructure capacity. Our grid and highway system could support A LOT more residents - these cities are plagued with horrible traffic that ends up contributing to a poor experience. We could easily grow 20% as a city and a region and our existing grid and highway system could support this.
1. Urban planning / infrastructure. New development is arguably more pedestrian-friendly and ground-level interactive than a lot happening in STL. We are seeing a bit of this now, but it's much more limited than in these regions - probably due to growth more than anything. Streets, sidewalks, handicap accessibility, plantings, bus shelters on urban corridors are consistent and in relatively good shape in these cities. Due to lack of funding and all the work Spire and Ameren have done, our streets and sidewalks are an absolute disaster in many parts of the city. We also have inconsistent plantings, curb cuts, bus shelters, etc... It makes for a terrible driving and walking experience, and it's immediately visible to visitors.
2. Immigration. All of these metro areas have a significant immigrant population. Not only does this help with growth, many of these immigrants are willing to work jobs that many Americans no longer are willing to do. Our city would run smoother for both residents and visitors if we could help fill positions like trash truck drivers, bus drivers, shuttle drivers, construction, retail, etc... I think marketing ourselves as a great spot for immigrants to live, building some programs to support immigrants, and perhaps even incentivizing them to locate in our less desirable areas would provide multiple wins. We could actually start growing again AND fill a number of jobs that are open. Not to mention that immigrants are great entrepreneurs and add great culture. Immigrants can help us turn around and then start attracting in-migration from other parts of the US too. This to me would be the biggest bang for our buck.
3. Violent crime. No surprise here, but it really is a factor. We need to fix the prosecution issues in the city ASAP and enforce and prosecute violent criminals. We need to combine our police departments with STL County so we can improve salaries and get more police officers on our streets. Criminals need to understand that crime will NOT be tolerated.
In addition to having a better response to crimes that occur, we need a better solution for the root cause. Our leaders need to get out into the community and LEAD. Many kids in these neighborhoods see no path for success b/c they've had no parental support and grow up in violence. They need to understand that there is a different path and that our leadership WANTS and BACKS them to succeed. I don't think enough of this is occurring - particularly in schools and neighborhoods that need help.
Now, one benefit STL has that these don't is infrastructure capacity. Our grid and highway system could support A LOT more residents - these cities are plagued with horrible traffic that ends up contributing to a poor experience. We could easily grow 20% as a city and a region and our existing grid and highway system could support this.
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1) I think we were a little slow to the ball game because 2 decades ago the city would sign off for ANY developemnt regardless of urban compatibility of the design. That is largely gone and the city insist on materials and form that reflect the highest and best in most cases. Multiple neighborhoods have form based code guidlines in place for instance. Of course the are prone to look past some of these guidelines if the purse is big enough. (See IKEA) but to be honest maybe they should.metzgda wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023I do a lot of travelling for work and have visited a lot of boom towns as of late. Austin, Dallas, Seattle, Atlanta, LA, etc... A couple things I've noticed in these towns that STL seems to be missing the mark on:
1. Urban planning / infrastructure. New development is arguably more pedestrian-friendly and ground-level interactive than a lot happening in STL. We are seeing a bit of this now, but it's much more limited than in these regions - probably due to growth more than anything. Streets, sidewalks, handicap accessibility, plantings, bus shelters on urban corridors are consistent and in relatively good shape in these cities. Due to lack of funding and all the work Spire and Ameren have done, our streets and sidewalks are an absolute disaster in many parts of the city. We also have inconsistent plantings, curb cuts, bus shelters, etc... It makes for a terrible driving and walking experience, and it's immediately visible to visitors.
2. Immigration. All of these metro areas have a significant immigrant population. Not only does this help with growth, many of these immigrants are willing to work jobs that many Americans no longer are willing to do. Our city would run smoother for both residents and visitors if we could help fill positions like trash truck drivers, bus drivers, shuttle drivers, construction, retail, etc... I think marketing ourselves as a great spot for immigrants to live, building some programs to support immigrants, and perhaps even incentivizing them to locate in our less desirable areas would provide multiple wins. We could actually start growing again AND fill a number of jobs that are open. Not to mention that immigrants are great entrepreneurs and add great culture. Immigrants can help us turn around and then start attracting in-migration from other parts of the US too. This to me would be the biggest bang for our buck.
3. Violent crime. No surprise here, but it really is a factor. We need to fix the prosecution issues in the city ASAP and enforce and prosecute violent criminals. We need to combine our police departments with STL County so we can improve salaries and get more police officers on our streets. Criminals need to understand that crime will NOT be tolerated.
In addition to having a better response to crimes that occur, we need a better solution for the root cause. Our leaders need to get out into the community and LEAD. Many kids in these neighborhoods see no path for success b/c they've had no parental support and grow up in violence. They need to understand that there is a different path and that our leadership WANTS and BACKS them to succeed. I don't think enough of this is occurring - particularly in schools and neighborhoods that need help.
Now, one benefit STL has that these don't is infrastructure capacity. Our grid and highway system could support A LOT more residents - these cities are plagued with horrible traffic that ends up contributing to a poor experience. We could easily grow 20% as a city and a region and our existing grid and highway system could support this.
2) Immigration is probably the most significant way to improve the city over the long run. would expect it to be painless though. Also the state is in the way on this issue.
3) We generally know that violent crime isn't significantly worse than other metros, St. Louis' crime is concentrated in the core city which is a much smaller proportion of the regional population. Violent crime is a problem but St. Louis solution to it is particularly self destructive. Basically move to somewhere in the region with low crime and then sit back and critiques the city you just left for being such a crime ridden hell-hole. This is incidentally also our collective solution to education...
2 decades? I'd say more like 10 years.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Apr 26, 20231) I think we were a little slow to the ball game because 2 decades ago the city would sign off for ANY developemnt regardless of urban compatibility of the design. That is largely gone and the city insist on materials and form that reflect the highest and best in most cases. Multiple neighborhoods have form based code guidlines in place for instance. Of course the are prone to look past some of these guidelines if the purse is big enough. (See IKEA) but to be honest maybe they should.metzgda wrote: ↑Apr 26, 2023I do a lot of travelling for work and have visited a lot of boom towns as of late. Austin, Dallas, Seattle, Atlanta, LA, etc... A couple things I've noticed in these towns that STL seems to be missing the mark on:
1. Urban planning / infrastructure. New development is arguably more pedestrian-friendly and ground-level interactive than a lot happening in STL. We are seeing a bit of this now, but it's much more limited than in these regions - probably due to growth more than anything. Streets, sidewalks, handicap accessibility, plantings, bus shelters on urban corridors are consistent and in relatively good shape in these cities. Due to lack of funding and all the work Spire and Ameren have done, our streets and sidewalks are an absolute disaster in many parts of the city. We also have inconsistent plantings, curb cuts, bus shelters, etc... It makes for a terrible driving and walking experience, and it's immediately visible to visitors.
2. Immigration. All of these metro areas have a significant immigrant population. Not only does this help with growth, many of these immigrants are willing to work jobs that many Americans no longer are willing to do. Our city would run smoother for both residents and visitors if we could help fill positions like trash truck drivers, bus drivers, shuttle drivers, construction, retail, etc... I think marketing ourselves as a great spot for immigrants to live, building some programs to support immigrants, and perhaps even incentivizing them to locate in our less desirable areas would provide multiple wins. We could actually start growing again AND fill a number of jobs that are open. Not to mention that immigrants are great entrepreneurs and add great culture. Immigrants can help us turn around and then start attracting in-migration from other parts of the US too. This to me would be the biggest bang for our buck.
3. Violent crime. No surprise here, but it really is a factor. We need to fix the prosecution issues in the city ASAP and enforce and prosecute violent criminals. We need to combine our police departments with STL County so we can improve salaries and get more police officers on our streets. Criminals need to understand that crime will NOT be tolerated.
In addition to having a better response to crimes that occur, we need a better solution for the root cause. Our leaders need to get out into the community and LEAD. Many kids in these neighborhoods see no path for success b/c they've had no parental support and grow up in violence. They need to understand that there is a different path and that our leadership WANTS and BACKS them to succeed. I don't think enough of this is occurring - particularly in schools and neighborhoods that need help.
Now, one benefit STL has that these don't is infrastructure capacity. Our grid and highway system could support A LOT more residents - these cities are plagued with horrible traffic that ends up contributing to a poor experience. We could easily grow 20% as a city and a region and our existing grid and highway system could support this.
When Field Foods was being built on Lafayette Ave, I had many email exchanges with Alderwoman Young in which I *begged* for an urban, pedestrian friendly design. Quite simply, put the damn store up to the street, with parking in back. Rather than the suburban-style store with acres of parking up front.
nope. deaf ears
Her response was basically "the parking lot can be filled with other development if the demand is there."
10 years later, Tim Hortons is vacant and the parking lot is 75% empty at peak demand.
Even our most well meaning leaders (and Young was absolutely one of them) just don't get it most times.
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Well it was an evolution toward the current mindset which still has potential for improvement but it has come a long way. I said 2 decades because i think the mindset started shifting with the advent of internet based grassroots activism. This forum included. Many of these websites are well over 10 years old and pushing 20 years old at this point. Prior to that i think there was no alternate narrative and St. Louis just appeared desperate for anything and everyone knew it.