How much was this was due to the political players and powers that be were still in the mindset and social life centered around manufacturing jobs?STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Apr 27, 2023Well it was an evolution toward the current mindset which still has potential for improvement but it has come a long way. I said 2 decades because i think the mindset started shifting with the advent of internet based grassroots activism. This forum included. Many of these websites are well over 10 years old and pushing 20 years old at this point. Prior to that i think there was no alternate narrative and St. Louis just appeared desperate for anything and everyone knew it.
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Of course there is a huge amount of inertia in the system. That said those people don't get replaced with people with a mindset toward more granular mixed use urban development unless there is grassroots support for the new approach.
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I'm going to compare the MSG sphere and the Arch in order to make this fit into this category because I can never find the right topic for weird things like this... but I am so blown away by how cool the MSG Sphere looks and I hadn't seen us discuss it here yet. So ICYMI its pretty amazing in video, can't imagine how cool it would be to see on the skyline.
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Video: Las Vegas’ incredible new MSG Sphere arena goes viral
https://en.as.com/videos/video-las-vega ... s-viral-v/
The MSG Sphere in Las Vegas is the world’s largest spherical structure, costing $2.3 billion. It is located one block east of the Vegas Strip.
The sphere is 366 feet tall and covered in 1.2 million LEDs, making it the largest video screen on Earth. It can display various visuals and can transform into an eyeball, American flag, snow globe, and more.
Video: Las Vegas’ incredible new MSG Sphere arena goes viral
https://en.as.com/videos/video-las-vega ... s-viral-v/
The MSG Sphere in Las Vegas is the world’s largest spherical structure, costing $2.3 billion. It is located one block east of the Vegas Strip.
The sphere is 366 feet tall and covered in 1.2 million LEDs, making it the largest video screen on Earth. It can display various visuals and can transform into an eyeball, American flag, snow globe, and more.
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Predicting +25million in ad revenue per year. And they are building another one in London.
Some graphics are better than others.
Some graphics are better than others.
Looks like the perfect silver bullet project to fund with the Rams money.
Slow Boring - Ignore "The Safest City in America" Rankings
https://www.slowboring.com/p/ignore-the ... in-americaThere are other reasons to be wary of rankings, namely around how city boundaries are drawn and how populations are counted. The city of St. Louis is frequently regarded as a city with one of the nation’s highest murder rates, but that dubious distinction is due in part to the city’s formal borders used in calculating crime rates encompassing only a fraction of the city’s overall metro area. Only 11% of the St. Louis metro area lives within the city’s borders for counting crime statistics, compared to 33% in Houston and 73% in Las Vegas.
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^We know this. The problem is no one else does, nor cares to understand.
3rd fastest growing economy in the Midwest since 2019
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Great to see how we compare to some of our peers / larger Midwest metro areas. There are other green metros on the map, which would be ahead of us (though, they are smaller). Took a stab at identifying them:
Larger Metros:
Omaha
Grand Rapids
Smaller ones (I think, some surprise me):
Kalamazoo MI?
Battle Creek MI?
Bay City and Saginaw MI?
Kankakee IL?
Decatur IL?
Larger Metros:
Omaha
Grand Rapids
Smaller ones (I think, some surprise me):
Kalamazoo MI?
Battle Creek MI?
Bay City and Saginaw MI?
Kankakee IL?
Decatur IL?
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Fun with AI. I asked Google Gemini AI, "Is it true that St. Louis city sells more major league tickets per resident than any city in North America?" Its reply included, "...the claim that it sells more major league tickets per resident than any other city is not strictly true...". And included other statistical and historical words.
So then I asked it, "If not strictly true, is it technically true?" Google Gemini's reply included, "While not "strictly" true in an absolute sense, the claim is technically true depending on the specific metrics and historical context you use." And then it had paragraphs of explanation blah blah blah.
So then I asked it, "If not strictly true, is it technically true?" Google Gemini's reply included, "While not "strictly" true in an absolute sense, the claim is technically true depending on the specific metrics and historical context you use." And then it had paragraphs of explanation blah blah blah.
Fun with AI part 2. I finally just asked Gemini AI, "Show a list of the top 10 North American cities ranked by major league tickets sold per city resident." After a few weasel words about "fan density" and the "denominated effect", it provided this list:
Top 10 Cities by Tickets Sold Per City Resident (2025)
Top 10 Cities by Tickets Sold Per City Resident (2025)
| Rank | City | Key Per Capita Strength |
| 1 | St. Louis, MO | St. Louis CITY SC sold out 100% of matches, and the Cardinals maintain one of MLB's highest attendance-to-population ratios. |
| 2 | Pittsburgh, PA | Consistently ranked as a top sports city due to extreme fan engagement across NFL, NHL, and MLB despite a small city population. |
| 3 | Milwaukee, WI | Often leads MLB in tickets sold per resident, with the Brewers outperforming many large-market teams in raw attendance. |
| 4 | Boston, MA | The top-ranked overall sports city for 2025; its density across four major sports is among the highest in North America. |
| 5 | Green Bay, WI | Technically the highest in the NFL; with only ~107,000 residents, it sells over 70,000 tickets per game. |
| 6 | Buffalo, NY | A midsize city leader with elite per capita ticket sales for the Bills (NFL) and Sabres (NHL). |
| 7 | Cincinnati, OH | High "fan engagement" scores for baseball and soccer (FC Cincinnati), which routinely draws over 23,000 fans per match. |
| 8 | Atlanta, GA | Home to Atlanta United, which leads North American soccer in total attendance (avg. 45,600) relative to city size. |
| 9 | Kansas City, MO | Strong per capita performance driven by the Chiefs and high engagement for the Royals. |
| 10 | Minneapolis, MN | Ranked highly for baseball fans and overall sports density across five major leagues. |
Twin's fans don't show up. They have to be close to the bottom of the league for attendance.gary kreie wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2025Fun with AI part 2. I finally just asked Gemini AI, "Show a list of the top 10 North American cities ranked by major league tickets sold per city resident." After a few weasel words about "fan density" and the "denominated effect", it provided this list:
Top 10 Cities by Tickets Sold Per City Resident (2025)
Rank City Key Per Capita Strength 1 St. Louis, MO St. Louis CITY SC sold out 100% of matches, and the Cardinals maintain one of MLB's highest attendance-to-population ratios. 2 Pittsburgh, PA Consistently ranked as a top sports city due to extreme fan engagement across NFL, NHL, and MLB despite a small city population. 3 Milwaukee, WI Often leads MLB in tickets sold per resident, with the Brewers outperforming many large-market teams in raw attendance. 4 Boston, MA The top-ranked overall sports city for 2025; its density across four major sports is among the highest in North America. 5 Green Bay, WI Technically the highest in the NFL; with only ~107,000 residents, it sells over 70,000 tickets per game. 6 Buffalo, NY A midsize city leader with elite per capita ticket sales for the Bills (NFL) and Sabres (NHL). 7 Cincinnati, OH High "fan engagement" scores for baseball and soccer (FC Cincinnati), which routinely draws over 23,000 fans per match. 8 Atlanta, GA Home to Atlanta United, which leads North American soccer in total attendance (avg. 45,600) relative to city size. 9 Kansas City, MO Strong per capita performance driven by the Chiefs and high engagement for the Royals. 10 Minneapolis, MN Ranked highly for baseball fans and overall sports density across five major leagues.
Plus at the Target Center they tarp off sections for the Timberwolves games. Even playoffs.STLAPTS wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2025Twin's fans don't show up. They have to be close to the bottom of the league for attendance.
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Google Gemini gives interesting results for what it calls the "denominated effect". Go to Google Gemini and type,
"In what city rankings does St. Louis rank unusually high due to the denominated effect?"
After the first result, type "more". Then type "yes" each time it asks if it should go further. It eventually shows our city vs metro ranking -- showing as a metro area, we are pretty much like all other Midwest metros our size.
I like this interesting observation Gemini came up with on it's own:
Land Area Comparison
St. Louis is officially 61.9 square miles of land. Here is how many "St. Louises" could fit inside the legal boundaries of other cities:
"In what city rankings does St. Louis rank unusually high due to the denominated effect?"
After the first result, type "more". Then type "yes" each time it asks if it should go further. It eventually shows our city vs metro ranking -- showing as a metro area, we are pretty much like all other Midwest metros our size.
I like this interesting observation Gemini came up with on it's own:
Land Area Comparison
St. Louis is officially 61.9 square miles of land. Here is how many "St. Louises" could fit inside the legal boundaries of other cities:
| City | Land Area (Sq Miles) | Number of St. Louises |
| St. Louis, MO | 62 | 1 |
| Columbus, OH | ~220 | 3.5 |
| Kansas City, MO | 315 | 5 |
| Oklahoma City, OK | 607 | 9.8 |
| Jacksonville, FL | 747 | 12 |
I just got back from my cousin's wedding in Cleveland, another hard luck city that has a lot in common with St. Louis. I have been to Cleveland a number of times over the years, and the city seems to be on the upswing. Some observations...
I stayed in the eastern suburbs, and Cleveland is way ahead of St. Louis in terms of mixed-use suburban lifestyle centers. There are several really nice mixed-use districts around Shaker Heights/Beachwood area that should be a model for similar developments in the suburbs of St. Louis. All of them were vibrant and pleasant with a great mix of shopping, dining and services. They didn't feel too contrived at all either. Ladue Crossing and Brentwood Promenade should've emulated these concepts instead of the clusterf*** crap we got instead. Take notes, St. Louis:
Van Aken District
Legacy Village
Pinecrest
Crocker Park
St. Louis is a more beautiful city, and it's not really even close. Cleveland has some great historic neighborhoods for sure, but generally speaking the residential and commercial architecture feels very basic and utilitarian compared to the rich, stately tightly-packed brick architecture that predominates in St. Louis. Outside of downtown, St. Louis feels more "big city" and grand.
Downtown Cleveland is miles ahead of downtown St. Louis in terms of commerce and vibrancy. Although I saw one or two large empty buildings, there weren't very many vacant storefronts (at least compared to St. Louis). In downtown Cleveland you will find high-end clothing stores, any type of restaurant you want from casual to upscale, and even a market that's open 24 hours in the heart of the CBD. Steady pedestrian traffic too throughout downtown, and lots of busy bus stops and transfer stations. And yet, Cleveland still has a bit of a gritty, dated vibe that I happen to appreciate- not all prettied up to cater to tourists.
Overall, Cleveland feels very comfortable and familiar. Being from St. Louis, Clevelanders seem very relatable to me- they are of similar ilk for sure. Anyone who loves St. Louis has to respect Cleveland--two classic American heavyweights!
I stayed in the eastern suburbs, and Cleveland is way ahead of St. Louis in terms of mixed-use suburban lifestyle centers. There are several really nice mixed-use districts around Shaker Heights/Beachwood area that should be a model for similar developments in the suburbs of St. Louis. All of them were vibrant and pleasant with a great mix of shopping, dining and services. They didn't feel too contrived at all either. Ladue Crossing and Brentwood Promenade should've emulated these concepts instead of the clusterf*** crap we got instead. Take notes, St. Louis:
Van Aken District
Legacy Village
Pinecrest
Crocker Park
St. Louis is a more beautiful city, and it's not really even close. Cleveland has some great historic neighborhoods for sure, but generally speaking the residential and commercial architecture feels very basic and utilitarian compared to the rich, stately tightly-packed brick architecture that predominates in St. Louis. Outside of downtown, St. Louis feels more "big city" and grand.
Downtown Cleveland is miles ahead of downtown St. Louis in terms of commerce and vibrancy. Although I saw one or two large empty buildings, there weren't very many vacant storefronts (at least compared to St. Louis). In downtown Cleveland you will find high-end clothing stores, any type of restaurant you want from casual to upscale, and even a market that's open 24 hours in the heart of the CBD. Steady pedestrian traffic too throughout downtown, and lots of busy bus stops and transfer stations. And yet, Cleveland still has a bit of a gritty, dated vibe that I happen to appreciate- not all prettied up to cater to tourists.
Overall, Cleveland feels very comfortable and familiar. Being from St. Louis, Clevelanders seem very relatable to me- they are of similar ilk for sure. Anyone who loves St. Louis has to respect Cleveland--two classic American heavyweights!
You're not gonna believe it but Cleveland's business sector wants the city to succeed, St. Louis' does not. The fact the city is part of the county also plays a factor.
Additionally, Cleveland's downtown transfer, Tower City, is way better than Civic Center. Remember Metro removed nearly all the intra-downtown busses in like 2009 due to lack of funding, funding they could have gotten if the county's voter base included the city.
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Additionally, Cleveland's downtown transfer, Tower City, is way better than Civic Center. Remember Metro removed nearly all the intra-downtown busses in like 2009 due to lack of funding, funding they could have gotten if the county's voter base included the city.
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Metro removed the busses in 2009 because of funding, yes, but they didn't bring them back after the county passed a sales tax to fund metro in 2010. Metro didn't want to run busses downtown, favoring all the routes to terminate at civic center, which they doubled the size of a few years ago.
A lot of Metro's bad decisions are their own, not just a lack of funding. That'd help, obviously, but their transit planning's not good.
Anyway, I appreciate the Cleveland reportback.
A lot of Metro's bad decisions are their own, not just a lack of funding. That'd help, obviously, but their transit planning's not good.
Anyway, I appreciate the Cleveland reportback.
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Cleveland is one of my favorite cities I tell people a city they should visit is Cleveland & they give me blank stares…..Downtown Cleveland is far better than Downtown St.Louis it’s not even close. Our downtown needs several big wins. Kudos to Cleveland I hope they keep turning the tide.
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They favored that because it saved money.PeterXCV wrote:Metro removed the busses in 2009 because of funding, yes, but they didn't bring them back after the county passed a sales tax to fund metro in 2010. Metro didn't want to run busses downtown, favoring all the routes to terminate at civic center, which they doubled the size of a few years ago.
A lot of Metro's bad decisions are their own, not just a lack of funding. That'd help, obviously, but their transit planning's not good.
Anyway, I appreciate the Cleveland reportback.
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Cleveland reveals how easy things would be if even just a handful of companies took a genuine investment in downtown.PlatinumBlues wrote:Cleveland is one of my favorite cities I tell people a city they should visit is Cleveland & they give me blank stares…..Downtown Cleveland is far better than Downtown St.Louis it’s not even close. Our downtown needs several big wins. Kudos to Cleveland I hope they keep turning the tide.
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Bro omg, it cost a lot of money to redo Civic Center the way they did and also they explicitly said moving south city buses out of Downtown would improve on time performance.StlAlex wrote: ↑11:48 PM - 3 days agoThey favored that because it saved money.PeterXCV wrote:Metro removed the busses in 2009 because of funding, yes, but they didn't bring them back after the county passed a sales tax to fund metro in 2010. Metro didn't want to run busses downtown, favoring all the routes to terminate at civic center, which they doubled the size of a few years ago.
A lot of Metro's bad decisions are their own, not just a lack of funding. That'd help, obviously, but their transit planning's not good.
Anyway, I appreciate the Cleveland reportback.
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