perhaps the lack of minority owned businesses is an indication of a failed SLPS
I think that's really broad, unfounded speculation. There's a "lack" of minority owned businesses across the country.
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I think that's really broad, unfounded speculation. There's a "lack" of minority owned businesses across the country.
I have worked on government projects (2 construction projects at the airport specifically) where the airport met their minority participation responsibility. Unfortunately, the electrician hired could not read (we found out later) and incorrectly wired an "explosion-proof" light fixture for a paint booth to the wrong line voltage and to our surprise the fixture did explode. We also hired a painting contractor who either could not read or did not read the project specifications and applied the wrong type of paint to a metal substrate. The airport had to then hire new contractors to come and fix the work of the original contractors. I would love if our trade schools would better prepare all labor trades regardless of color so we could hopefully do away with quotas in the future.
In closing, the architectural firm where I worked at the time also met their obligation for minority participation for this airport project. At the time there were only 2 minority owned architectural firms for our firm to joint venture with, so we selected one local minority owned firm and asked them to send an employee to our office to fulfill their portion of the contract work. This minority owned architectural firm sent our firm a 50 year old white guy to satisfy the "minority participation" - I'm sorry, but just because you hire a minority owned business does not necessarily provide your project with minority participation. It might satisfy the verbiage of the law, but it does not satisfy the intent of the law.
In closing, the architectural firm where I worked at the time also met their obligation for minority participation for this airport project. At the time there were only 2 minority owned architectural firms for our firm to joint venture with, so we selected one local minority owned firm and asked them to send an employee to our office to fulfill their portion of the contract work. This minority owned architectural firm sent our firm a 50 year old white guy to satisfy the "minority participation" - I'm sorry, but just because you hire a minority owned business does not necessarily provide your project with minority participation. It might satisfy the verbiage of the law, but it does not satisfy the intent of the law.
jambalaya wrote:I have worked on government projects (2 construction projects at the airport specifically) where the airport met their minority participation responsibility. Unfortunately, the electrician hired could not read (we found out later) and incorrectly wired an "explosion-proof" light fixture for a paint booth to the wrong line voltage and to our surprise the fixture did explode. We also hired a painting contractor who either could not read or did not read the project specifications and applied the wrong type of paint to a metal substrate. The airport had to then hire new contractors to come and fix the work of the original contractors. I would love if our trade schools would better prepare all labor trades regardless of color so we could hopefully do away with quotas in the future.
The problems you cited really had less to with them being minority and perhaps had to do more with them being low-skilled or incompetent. Is it right? Should it be acceptable? No. However, non-minority contractors screw up stuff all of the time and it is never attributed to their "majority" status. Remember the problems Shaw Park Plaza in Clayton had? 114 people died in Kansas City in 1981 because of mistakes made by St. Louis contractors of the Hyatt walkway collapse. Ultimately, it speaks to firms not finding the right contractor - minority or otherwise - to do the job from the beginning, and some contractors are simply going to make engineering errors, unfortunately.
I personally think the St. Louis Construction Careers Center is a good institution, from what I can tell, for all students.
St. Louis has had many minority architecture firms and has for a while. Kennedy (30 years), Grice Group (25), and David Mason (20) come to mind immediately. Then there are asian firms like William Tao & Associates and a Latino firm, Rubio/Durham - just to name a few. Edit: However, all minority firms might not do designs in the aviation industry. If that is the case, then I understand your point.jambalaya wrote:
In closing, the architectural firm where I worked at the time also met their obligation for minority participation for this airport project. At the time there were only 2 minority owned architectural firms for our firm to joint venture with, so we selected one local minority owned firm and asked them to send an employee to our office to fulfill their portion of the contract work. This minority owned architectural firm sent our firm a 50 year old white guy to satisfy the "minority participation" - I'm sorry, but just because you hire a minority owned business does not necessarily provide your project with minority participation. It might satisfy the verbiage of the law, but it does not satisfy the intent of the law.
Also, based on what you wrote, there was nothing absolutely wrong with 50-year old white guy showing up. He worked for a minority-owned firm. Minority firms look for the best talent just like majority firms. Also, minority firms cannot and should not discriminate against non-minorities. A white man showing up does not speak to the compentency of the minority members of a minority-owned agency either. If he is skilled, and happens to be white, so what. The intent of the law is to include minority-owned firms. If I owned the firm, I would want him too if he is skilled. He would just happen to represent a firm that happens to be minority owned.
I agree with your assertion that there are a lot of good contractors both minority and "non-minority" and even some contractors of "not quality" from both catagories. William Tao was started by a gentleman who happened to be a minority ... but he hasn't had anything to do with the company for some time. The two guys in charge are both decisively "non-minority". And I would say well less than 10% of their work force can be considered minority in any fashion. But what (letter of the law) represents a minority firm?
And not to rustle feathers – but shouldn’t everyone be given the opportunity to make it – regardless of race or gender? I see the point behind affirmative action, (to jambalaya’s point) but if the owners (of the projects) choose the best contractor and weren’t told “you must pick from this list” wouldn’t it be better? The people who can’t read or paint stuff wrong will be weeded out – minority or not… and the contractors that are awesome will get more contracts. Capitalism and market economy in action?.? Saves money for the owners of the project and/or the public (where public financing is involved). I guess I am an idealist or just plain ignorant.
And not to rustle feathers – but shouldn’t everyone be given the opportunity to make it – regardless of race or gender? I see the point behind affirmative action, (to jambalaya’s point) but if the owners (of the projects) choose the best contractor and weren’t told “you must pick from this list” wouldn’t it be better? The people who can’t read or paint stuff wrong will be weeded out – minority or not… and the contractors that are awesome will get more contracts. Capitalism and market economy in action?.? Saves money for the owners of the project and/or the public (where public financing is involved). I guess I am an idealist or just plain ignorant.
Doug wrote:
I wrote about this a little.
State Office of Supplier and Workforce Diversity has a database of all minority owned businesses in the entire State. View it here.
Some industries have quite a few, whereas masonry only has 2 minority owned contractors in the entire St. Louis Region.
It maybe hard to determine if unmet percentages are due to a lack of minority contractors, or discrimination. These reports, if they exist, are not exactly public documents.
Again, since St. Louis is a majority-minority City, perhaps the lack of minority owned businesses is an indication of a failed SLPS, which does include trade schools. Thus, we are not creating a lot of minority owned businesses because of an educational failure.
Do you mean businesses in general or in the construction industry?
Thanks for your clarification on Wm. Tao, but at one time, it was a minority-owned firm. I don't know if it was during the time jambalaya is indicating though.tbspqr wrote:I agree with your assertion that there are a lot of good contractors both minority and "non-minority" and even some contractors of "not quality" from both catagories. William Tao was started by a gentleman who happened to be a minority ... but he hasn't had anything to do with the company for some time. The two guys in charge are both decisively "non-minority". And I would say well less than 10% of their work force can be considered minority in any fashion. But what (letter of the law) represents a minority firm?
And not to rustle feathers – but shouldn’t everyone be given the opportunity to make it – regardless of race or gender? I see the point behind affirmative action, (to jambalaya’s point) but if the owners (of the projects) choose the best contractor and weren’t told “you must pick from this list” wouldn’t it be better? The people who can’t read or paint stuff wrong will be weeded out – minority or not… and the contractors that are awesome will get more contracts. Capitalism and market economy in action?.? Saves money for the owners of the project and/or the public (where public financing is involved). I guess I am an idealist or just plain ignorant.
Also, I agree with you that the best contractors should be chosen. I certainly don't want a building or skywalk collapsing on me because unqualified contractors were on the project. However, we know the best don't always get chosen. AND we know that the 'good ol' boy' network has been alive and well in this country, and this network has excluded racial minorities and women for eons. Let's keep it real.
St. Louis is HISTORICALLY NOTORIOUS for having good ol' boy networks and minorities and women have been historically shut out even if they have proven themselves. Fortunately, this has begun to change. Perhaps there are no local minority firms to fill certain jobs at the Pinnacle site, but that doesn't mean if there are none the developer shouldn't consider qualified contractors in KC, Chicago, Indy, Memphis or even Dallas or Houston to fill that need.
Also, Pinnacle recently submitted a proposal for a Philly casino. They cited their "minority inclusion" in St. Louis, which they haven't completely lived up to, to that city's government/decision-makers as one of the reasons why they should have the opportunity to build in Philly.
I certainly understand why the panic button is being pushed here. There's a nearly $1-billion project under way and minority firms can't get a respectable piece of the pie?
The Cardinals ballpark is hailed as a shining example of minority participation. It's about building relationships.
Does anyone know if Pinnacle's minority goals are specifically for ethnic minorities, or does their target percentage also include women-owned contractors?
Minority owned includes everything except white men. BS in my opinion.
Sincerely,
Whitey.
Sincerely,
Whitey.
Just to fan the flames a bit, here: this white man has participated with other white men in a lot of deals that earned a lot of white men money. Deals that include a single minority who owns a "business" that does little more than front all these white men so their businesses can participate in projects constrained by such arbitrary affirmative action rules. They don't work, except to enrich very few savvy opportunists who happen to be in a certifiable minority.ntbpo wrote:Minority owned includes everything except white men. BS in my opinion.
Sincerely,
Whitey.
The intentions are admirable. When I hire I try my damnedest to find minority candidates to avoid homogenization (for enlightened self interest, not social responsibility). Recruiting personnel is the action that needs to be affirmative, everything else is about who can get the job done.
(As an aside, it is exceptionally hard to find anyone but white males with any software engineering skills, at least locally. Some diversity can be had culturally, but it sure frustrates my recruiters when I insist they find someone who would in any way stand out in a lineup with their other candidates.)
I apologize for the lousy job I did on my last point trying to get my point across. What I was meaning to indicate is our goal should be to eliminate quotas - period. Giving someone a project base on their minority status (race or gender) is as wrong as not giving someone a project for the same reason - it is a descriminatory practice either way. I would rather we have the most skilled work force to choose from and then let the free market economy do its thing. I promise you if you have a skilled contractor (whether a general contractor or a subcontractor) and they are cost competitive, they will get their fair share of work. The Old Boy Network always takes a back seat to money - almost without exception. The points Arch City made were good ones - there are a lot of horrible contractors out there (speaking of their skill level) - exclusive of minority/majority status. So again, our goal should be to work with the trade schools to insure a great pool of talent to choose from.
The point made concerning the Hyatt Regency collapse was a little flawed. It was a field change made without the input of either the architect or the structural engineer. The original design had suspended catwalks at the 2nd and 4th floor - suspended with a tension cable. The structural engineer designed the single tension cable to support the load provided by both catwalks, however to make the designed connection at the 2nd and 4th floors, the tension cable would have to be threaded the entire length of the 3rd floor as well. It was a matter of the contractor not wanting to thread the entire length of the tension cable, so in the field they introduced a 2 cable solution and the catwalk floor slab fractured at the point where the load between the 2 cables was transferred. In hind sight, the structural analysis of the field change should not have even supported the dead weight of the catwalk. The structural engineer lost their license in the State of Missouri because they failed to identify this change during their field observations during the construction process (even though the revision was not presented to them for their approval, they ultimately shared the responsibility for the failure).
The point made concerning the Hyatt Regency collapse was a little flawed. It was a field change made without the input of either the architect or the structural engineer. The original design had suspended catwalks at the 2nd and 4th floor - suspended with a tension cable. The structural engineer designed the single tension cable to support the load provided by both catwalks, however to make the designed connection at the 2nd and 4th floors, the tension cable would have to be threaded the entire length of the 3rd floor as well. It was a matter of the contractor not wanting to thread the entire length of the tension cable, so in the field they introduced a 2 cable solution and the catwalk floor slab fractured at the point where the load between the 2 cables was transferred. In hind sight, the structural analysis of the field change should not have even supported the dead weight of the catwalk. The structural engineer lost their license in the State of Missouri because they failed to identify this change during their field observations during the construction process (even though the revision was not presented to them for their approval, they ultimately shared the responsibility for the failure).
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In other news, it looks like they've started work on the tunnel at Baer Park.
Imagine these scenarios-
A minority-owned business that employees mostly white men.
A 'white-male' owned business that employees mostly minorities.
What are we trying to achieve? To make a few owners wealthy or to spread employment opportunity?
More skilled minorities coming out of the trade schools (there's a place to focus on) will create more employment, and in time, these people will start their own business, and so on. Unfortunatey, it's a slow process.
That said plus legitimate economic injustice, I don't object to quotas to jump-start project experience, but in time, see them disappear.
A minority-owned business that employees mostly white men.
A 'white-male' owned business that employees mostly minorities.
What are we trying to achieve? To make a few owners wealthy or to spread employment opportunity?
More skilled minorities coming out of the trade schools (there's a place to focus on) will create more employment, and in time, these people will start their own business, and so on. Unfortunatey, it's a slow process.
That said plus legitimate economic injustice, I don't object to quotas to jump-start project experience, but in time, see them disappear.
DeBaliviere wrote:In other news, it looks like they've started work on the tunnel at Baer Park.
Plus they've started hanging glass on the north side of the tower.
Say what you will about the design...yes I know we might have hoped for something a little different...but in the end this is going to be something that
a. adds a nice touch to our skyline and
b. creates interest and foot traffic downtown
a. adds a nice touch to our skyline and
b. creates interest and foot traffic downtown
mophipsi wrote:Say what you will about the design...yes I know we might have hoped for something a little different...but in the end this is going to be something that
a. adds a nice touch to our skyline and
b. creates interest and foot traffic downtown
Agreed, I am looking forward to something new in the skyline.
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In other news, it looks like they've started work on the tunnel at Baer Park.
I wonder how long this is going to take to build? I would think tunneling and reinforcing the ground above would take more than 6-8 months(opening fall 07). It would be kind of cool if they did one of those screen banners on the ceiling like in DT vegas or some other special effect.
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bpe235 wrote:hey what's the link to that web cam>?
http://www.oxblue.com/pro/open/?webPath ... tlouiscity
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Expat wrote:mophipsi wrote:Say what you will about the design...yes I know we might have hoped for something a little different...but in the end this is going to be something that
a. adds a nice touch to our skyline and
b. creates interest and foot traffic downtown
Agreed, I am looking forward to something new in the skyline.
True, true
especially because the other two towers being built (roberts/skyhouse) won't have much, if any, impact on the skyline. (from east riverfront)
minority: a group of people who differ racially or politically from a larger group of which it is a part
African Americans are the majority in St. Louis. I suppose it is then honorable of them to protest Pinnacle in urging them to hire more minority (non-black) contracts.
African Americans are the majority in St. Louis. I suppose it is then honorable of them to protest Pinnacle in urging them to hire more minority (non-black) contracts.
If that were the case dude, minority firms would be farther along rather than in their infancy stages.jambalaya wrote:I promise you if you have a skilled contractor (whether a general contractor or a subcontractor) and they are cost competitive, they will get their fair share of work. The Old Boy Network always takes a back seat to money - almost without exception.
jambalaya, it doesn't matter in the end who did what, shoddy work by certain parties involved caused the deaths of 114 people. Point is, mistakes can be made by minority or majority contractors/engineers. There is no flaw in the point.jambalaya wrote:
The point made concerning the Hyatt Regency collapse was a little flawed. It was a field change made without the input of either the architect or the structural engineer. The structural engineer lost their license in the State of Missouri because they failed to identify this change during their field observations during the construction process (even though the revision was not presented to them for their approval, they ultimately shared the responsibility for the failure).
Anyway......I hope the vestibule at Baer Park ends up looking a lot better than the rendering.
dweebe wrote:
Plus they've started hanging glass on the north side of the tower.
Yep, and it looks like its gonna be quite green. (the color, not LEEDS)
I thought it was going to be a bluish-green? Green glass? Maybe it'll reflect blue or green depending on how the sun and sky hits the building?Framer wrote:
Yep, and it looks like its gonna be quite green. (the color, not LEEDS)
Arch City, I am afraid you are missing the flaw with a quota mindset. If minority contractors are handed work based on nothing more than their minority status, then they do not have the advantage of sharpening their skills to prepare their bids/proposals as driven by a competitive free market industry. This is one of the reasons minority firms are in their "infancy stages" as you describe, because they have not grown through private sector work (competitive bid) they have been satisfied with government funded projects that guarantees their involvement based on something as arbitrary as their minority status (instead of experience, talent, skill or the generation of a truly competitive bid - not even saying the lowest bid, but the best qualified bid). The goal should be to advance the talent pool (trade schools) and lose the quota system and make everyone earn their projects based upon skill/talent and a fair competitive bid environment.
I will make the point again - if any contracting firm is cost competitive they will get their fair share of work, because money drives the proforma of real estate developers and they will hire the most qualified contractor that provides the project with the most value. Several years ago, I worked on an office building downtown that was developed by a company made up of 5 minority doctors. My first question to them had to do with their desire/expectation of minority contractor involvement on their project. They informed me that they were not interested in minority participation - they only wanted the low bidders. Regardless of minority status, money talks to developers.
I will make the point again - if any contracting firm is cost competitive they will get their fair share of work, because money drives the proforma of real estate developers and they will hire the most qualified contractor that provides the project with the most value. Several years ago, I worked on an office building downtown that was developed by a company made up of 5 minority doctors. My first question to them had to do with their desire/expectation of minority contractor involvement on their project. They informed me that they were not interested in minority participation - they only wanted the low bidders. Regardless of minority status, money talks to developers.
jambalaya, your argument is all over the place. My response was to your comment,jambalaya wrote:Arch City, I am afraid you are missing the flaw with a quota mindset. If minority contractors are handed work based on nothing more than their minority status, then they do not have the advantage of sharpening their skills to prepare their bids/proposals as driven by a competitive free market industry. This is one of the reasons minority firms are in their "infancy stages" as you describe, because they have not grown through private sector work (competitive bid) they have been satisfied with government funded projects that guarantees their involvement based on something as arbitrary as their minority status (instead of experience, talent, skill or the generation of a truly competitive bid - not even saying the lowest bid, but the best qualified bid). The goal should be to advance the talent pool (trade schools) and lose the quota system and make everyone earn their projects based upon skill/talent and a fair competitive bid environment.
I will make the point again - if any contracting firm is cost competitive they will get their fair share of work, because money drives the proforma of real estate developers and they will hire the most qualified contractor that provides the project with the most value. Several years ago, I worked on an office building downtown that was developed by a company made up of 5 minority doctors. My first question to them had to do with their desire/expectation of minority contractor involvement on their project. They informed me that they were not interested in minority participation - they only wanted the low bidders. Regardless of minority status, money talks to developers.
"The point made concerning the Hyatt Regency collapse was a little flawed."
Your argument/response went to a totally different place.
Anyway, you really do need to chill. You don't know don't know what kind of "mindset" I have. Also, don't spin my words in order to further your agenda(s) and ideas. Furthermore, although no system is flawless, you need to talk to the heads of many minority firms out there who believe that inclusion programs work.