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PostApr 05, 2007#551

Arch City wrote: Furthermore, although no system is flawless, you need to talk to the heads of many minority firms out there who believe that inclusion programs work.


Of course they believe it's working. They're getting the contracts they might otherwise have not!

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PostApr 05, 2007#552

buckethead wrote:
Of course they believe it's working. They're getting the contracts they might otherwise have not!
And your point is.......?

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PostApr 05, 2007#553

Arch City wrote:
buckethead wrote:
Of course they believe it's working. They're getting the contracts they might otherwise have not!
And your point is.......?


My point is if I was getting no bid contracts of course I would say it's "working".

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PostApr 05, 2007#554

(Yawn.)



I think this may be a project that has been underestimated in its contribution to STL. Having a casino basically attached to the convention center will be a big draw for conventioners. It will give a glowing bookend to the north end of the skyline and it may reinvigorate the Landing as at least some visitors will want variety in dining choices.

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PostApr 05, 2007#555

buckethead wrote:
My point is if I was getting no bid contracts of course I would say it's "working".
Please. No-bid? Minority firms bid all of the time and against each other. We're not talking about Halliburton's Iraq contract or the cronyism of how the Bush Administration has doled out contracts post-Katrina or Iraq. In fact, we are talking the exact opposite - which is inclusion.

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PostApr 05, 2007#556

Grover wrote:I think this may be a project that has been underestimated in its contribution to STL. Having a casino basically attached to the convention center will be a big draw for conventioners. It will give a glowing bookend to the north end of the skyline and it may reinvigorate the Landing as at least some visitors will want variety in dining choices.


I agree completely, and I appreciate your attempt to shift this conversation toward something more positive.

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PostApr 05, 2007#557

Arch City - I think you are the one needing to chill. I was not speaking of your specific mindset - I was talking in general of a quota-based mindset (seems to have struck a nerve with you though). I would like to suggest you invest some time in reading anything from an author named Thomas Sowell. Mr. Sowell has an interesting perspective stressing how any affirmative action policy does nothing for the long-term advancement of minorities....Mr. Sowell is an African-American and presents some very interesting arguements from his perspective.



The initial point (not an arguement) was very simple - money speaks to developers and if a truly competitive industry is available where talent levels are consistent then the wealth will be shared by all qualified contractors. The point I made was stressing how even when a minority owned development firm had an opportunity to involve minority participation - they chose the low-bid route which is pretty typical among real-estate developers. Sorry if that point was not more plainly stated.

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PostApr 05, 2007#558

jamba - whaddya think?



I think this may be a project that has been underestimated in its contribution to STL. Having a casino basically attached to the convention center will be a big draw for conventioners. It will give a glowing bookend to the north end of the skyline and it may reinvigorate the Landing as at least some visitors will want variety in dining choices.

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PostApr 05, 2007#559

Grover wrote:


I think this may be a project that has been underestimated in its contribution to STL. Having a casino basically attached to the convention center will be a big draw for conventioners. It will give a glowing bookend to the north end of the skyline and it may reinvigorate the Landing as at least some visitors will want variety in dining choices.


I think you may be right concerning the draw for new convention traffic to our city, but casinos typically are not very good neighbors. Pinnacle has no interest in invigorating The Landing or surrounding developments - once they have you inside they are only interested in keeping you there until you have spent all your entertainment dollars. This is why casinos are the all-inclusive developments they have become. I do think it will provide some additional convention traffic, but let's hope they visit all the other sites/restaurants before they enter the casino.

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PostApr 05, 2007#560

Have you ever stayed at an all inclusive resort? If you have then youll know that you dont spend all your time inside the resort. Resort towns are very vibrant for the reason that people dont spend all their time inside, they go out to the town and spend plenty of money there too.

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PostApr 05, 2007#561

I hope you are not suggesting that St. Louis is a resort town or this is a resort development - they are completely different animals, and visitors to a resort town have different objectives than visitors to the Pinnacle development. Have you been to Vegas lately to see the ridiculous steps these casinos take to keep you in their facilities (all the necessary entertainment and dining amenities, no windows, pumping more oxygen into their HVAC systems, etc...). I have worked with casinos and I know their goal - attract you and keep you until you spend all available entertainment dollars - period. If you think differently then you are not watching reported profit reports of casinos (and these are only their reported earning statements).

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PostApr 05, 2007#562

I agree, I think it will be a draw for conventions but I don't think it will do much for the landing unfortunately.

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PostApr 05, 2007#563

You compared it to an all-inclusive resort, not I...

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PostApr 05, 2007#564

I think there is a huge difference between an all-inclusive resort and an all-inclusive urban casino. If I led you to believe I was suggesting the Pinnacle development was a resort development then please accept my apology. The Pinnalce casino development is an internally focused all-inclusive building that does not tend to share with their neighbors. I would classify a resort as a vacation destination and this development does not meet that qualifier. This casino will be frequented by business travelers and locals and will have very little regional attraction (like every other casino in our area).

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PostApr 05, 2007#565

I think the logic that Pinnacle has no interest in invigorating the landing is flawed. I say this because of the Lumier development that they are proposing. If they had no interest in the area they would not be investing millions of dollars to create a neighborhood in the area. It is in their best interest to create a healthy vibrant neighborhood in order to draw in both local and out of town customers to their casino. Being in the middle of a succesful city is what sets this apart from the Harrahs' and Ameristars' out there.

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PostApr 05, 2007#566

If they had no interest in the area they would not be investing millions of dollars to create a neighborhood in the area.


Well, partially because they are contractually obligated to do so. Maybe not to this extent, but it's worth pointing out.

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PostApr 05, 2007#567

^They're only obligated to $50M. I think they're well beyond that with the current plan.

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PostApr 05, 2007#568

jambalaya wrote:Arch City - I think you are the one needing to chill. I was not speaking of your specific mindset - I was talking in general of a quota-based mindset (seems to have struck a nerve with you though).


jambalaya, we could keep bantering back-and-forth, but in the end it really accomplishes nothing. If you read your statement, it could clearly be taken as a direct comment and not in general.


jambalaya wrote:
I would like to suggest you invest some time in reading anything from an author named Thomas Sowell. Mr. Sowell has an interesting perspective stressing how any affirmative action policy does nothing for the long-term advancement of minorities....Mr. Sowell is an African-American and presents some very interesting arguements from his perspective.
It is likely that am well ahead of you in this department. I am a sociologist by profession with a strong interest in family/urban affairs. I read and have studied Sowell, who's an economist, while in college. I read his columns semi-regularly. For every Sowell or Ward Connerly, hypocritical men who have actually benefited from Affirmative Action, there are others in the African-American/black community who believe otherwise. And FYI, I have no definitive position, while I do (and have) understood the intent, upsides (advantages) and downsides (disadvantages) of such programs. So you have not struck a nerve with me in the least.


jambalaya wrote:
The initial point (not an arguement) was very simple - money speaks to developers and if a truly competitive industry is available where talent levels are consistent then the wealth will be shared by all qualified contractors. The point I made was stressing how even when a minority owned development firm had an opportunity to involve minority participation - they chose the low-bid route which is pretty typical among real-estate developers. Sorry if that point was not more plainly stated.
I understood and heard your point loud and clear. You keep making arguments about talent levels, low bids, developers etc., but there have always been qualified minority contractors to do certain jobs, make low bids etc. but they were shut out because of nepotism and other factors, which is why such programs were instituted to begin with - especially with regards to government contracts. What about this is not resonating with you?



Overall, I agree with an earlier assertion made by you,


jambalaya wrote:
"I would love if our trade schools would better prepare all labor trades regardless of color so we could hopefully do away with quotas in the future."


....but many minorities and women were "better prepared" but were still shut out. Anyway......Pinnacle has recommitted to its original plan for minority participation. I support them.

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PostApr 05, 2007#569

How can you argue that the market will provide the solution to urban poverty, when that same market caused the urban working poor to lose their manufacturing jobs? Wages and taxes could be lower in suburban, rural or overseas, thus to maximize profits the jobs left. Many were without work, and since America does not guarantee social rights, that being the right to a job, education, etc., these individuals were left behind. Factor in New Federalism thus fewer Federal Dollars going to Cities and it can be seen how well the market solved the problem. The black middle class moved out of the City, did gain wealth, but the bottom 3 socioeconomic fifths of the African American population actually lost per capita income over time, adjusted to inflation.



Sowell makes the statement: "It is the people who were born and raised in the welfare state atmosphere who seem to have great difficulty finding jobs."



He is speaking from a personal responsibility angle. If people are not responsible then how can they stand on their own?



Yet, the alternative to welfare is service sector jobs which do not provide health care or insurance. To maximize profit these benefits are not provided. Many people would cycle on and off of AFDC because of this problem. They would try to get a job, yet didn't have health insurance or child care, thus got back on AFDC. With a higher wage and some benefits, they would have remained working. The majority of the poor actually have the desire to work per William Julius Wilson's analysis of Urban Poverty and Family Life Study survey data, which is contrary to the prevailing belief that the poor are that way because they are simply lazy free riders.



Moreover, Clinton's original plan for TANF called for mandatory health and child care for those transitioning into work, as often employers do not provide such benefits for lower wage jobs. Thus, people leaving TANF would have an easier transition. Moreover, his first draft provided a guarantee to work, not only opportunity, thus public sector jobs would be created if the person is unable to actually obtain a job. This is similar to what was done during the Depression.



Obviously Clinton's plans were not included as the 1994 Republican landslide and the Contract on America made those politically impossible.



What we have now is a 15.4 billion block grant not indexed to inflation, that gives much discretion to the states, nor does it provide health insurance, child care, the guarantee of a job, and is very effective at keeping people off the rolls.



William Julius Wilson makes the point that Affirmative Action generally benefits middle class blacks greatest, when compared to the actual urban poor. He suggests a formula that also takes into account class, as opposed to race alone. This way poor individuals, regardless of race, would benefit, while the poorest would definitely benefit due to need, and these are African Americans.

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PostApr 05, 2007#570

I think Doug deserves a response, but after that we really do need to get back on track. It's turning into a sociology class.



Ultimately, Pinnacle is doing what they think is best.



Pinnacle increases percentage of work awarded to minority companies

By Tim Barker

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

04/03/2007




Facing criticism and threats from minority groups, Pinnacle Entertainment Inc. said Monday that it has increased the percentage of work it has awarded to minority contractors.



The company, which is building a $475 million casino complex in downtown St. Louis, said contracts given to minority- and women-owned firms have topped 20 percent, up from the previous mark of 17 percent.



Source

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PostApr 05, 2007#571

But I think the Pinnacle casino is a different beast. The Pinnacle on the Landing reminds me of some of the older casinos in Las Vegas along the east side of the strip.



The newer mega resorts in Vegas (like Mirage, Treasure Island, Caesars, Mandalay Bay, Wynn etc) are set back from the strip and are challenging to get in, difficult to get out.



Or look at all the boats in moats/riverboats in this area.

Harrahs: way out on it's own in Riverport.

St Charles: way away from Old Town across a bridge. Can you even get to the casino by foot?

Casino Queen: way out on it's own on the East St. Louis Riverfront, though there is a Metrolink station that's a fair walk away.



But if you look at stuff in Vegas like the Flamingo, Oriental Palace or all the old casinos along Fremont street the entrances to the gaming space are right there on the street.



I was encouraged to see the main extrance to the Pinnacle is on the southeast corner of the complex facing the Landing. Now who's not to say they'll stick all the penny slots by that door and bury the table games way in back. But I could see some winners going: "Hey, lets go to Sundeckers/Morgan Street etc and get plowed off my winnings." Or some losers going "Eff this, I'm down $100: let's go get some burgers at Sundeckers."

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PostApr 06, 2007#572

The Casino comps are designed to keep people who lose their money within the premises (to go back to the ATM).



Pinnacle is a good thing for DT, but will attract a lot of addicts, which I am not too thrilled about (Of course they have a right to lose everything, but I do feel bad)

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PostApr 06, 2007#573

What the area really needs is competing casinos. The problem with St. Louis is that it has several casinos, and they are all spread out around the metro area. If we had 3-4 casinos in one area, that would help to create more of a district, as well as create a destination and competition.

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PostApr 06, 2007#574

(Of course they have a right to lose everything, but I do feel bad)


Do we still have loss-limits in MO?

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PostApr 06, 2007#575

As of right now, Yes. The legislators are debating a bill to remove it.



Though I feel bad for people who lose their all in casino's, they should have a right to do so. It is not the Gov. responsibility to legislate how they spend/lose their money.

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