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PostDec 10, 2008#301

There are shelters and resources available. By calling 211 a person can be placed into the appropriate social services.



And YES, there are a wide variety of resources available.



People such as Larry often use the generalized term of "homeless" to evoke sympathy and donations when it is often a bum.


Bum: A lazy or shiftless person, especially one who seeks to live solely by the support of others.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bum




What we are "complaining" about are the bums who crap in our doorways, parks, fight, use drugs, and yet expect free stuff from society without working for it.



If people don't think we should complain about this and just look the other way then we would be just as guilty as a bum who doesn't take any personal responsibility.

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212

PostDec 10, 2008#302

Great point, but how is this determination made at these shelters? I agree, there are obviously people who are homeless as a result of economic conditions - no choice of thier own. But how do these ministries or shelters separate the true homeless from the bums? Again, great point.

5,631
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5,631

PostDec 10, 2008#303

Perhaps it would make sense if the agencies in the homeless care continuum had access to a common Customer Relationship Management (CRM) system to develop a better understanding of each client's history and needs.



Or maybe just administer a Rorschach inkblot test.


2,821
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2,821

PostDec 10, 2008#304

^AAAAAAAAAAAAHH! *runs away screaming*



:)

1,044
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1,044

PostDec 10, 2008#305

I doubt many of the homeless are such due to economic conditions. I believe mental disabilities, health and family situations (abuse etc.) are greater contributors to chronic homelessness. The other group and majority of the trouble makers downtown are those that "choose" to live on the streets. These are the ones who will continue to sponge off society no matter how many programs we throw their way.

5,631
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5,631

PostDec 10, 2008#306

^ Ahh, really? I think this thought can be refined a bit more. The economy can put people on the street... And once they get there, they can start to become mentally ill, involved in drugs and other behaviors that can help cement them as chronically homeless.

1,044
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1,044

PostDec 10, 2008#307

I doubt many healthcare professionals would agree with your assessment of the root of mental illness, however Tom and Katie Cruise might.

5,631
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5,631

PostDec 10, 2008#308

^ I don't know what part you take issue with, but I am not wrong. Healthcare professionals that disagree should just get a different job. Perhaps you and they can take it up with neurologists at the National Institutes of Health (NIH.) That would be my professional recommendation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#Causes wrote:Abnormal functioning of neurotransmitter systems has been implicated, including serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine and glutamate systems. Differences have also been found in the size or activity of certain brains regions in some cases. Psychological mechanisms have also been implicated, such as cognitive and emotional processes, personality, temperament and coping style.



Social influences have been found to be important, including abuse, bullying and other negative or stressful life experiences. The specific risks and pathways to particular disorders are less clear, however. Aspects of the wider community have also been implicated, including employment problems, socioeconomic inequality, lack of social cohesion, problems linked to migration, and features of particular societies and cultures.

http://science-education.nih.gov/supplements/nih5/Mental/guide/info-mental-b.htm wrote:
At this time, scientists do not have a complete understanding of what causes mental illnesses. If you think about the structural and organizational complexity of the brain together with the complexity of effects that mental illnesses have on thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, it is hardly surprising that figuring out the causes of mental illnesses is a daunting task. The fields of neuroscience, psychiatry, and psychology address different aspects of the relationship between the biology of the brain and individuals’ behaviors, thoughts, and feelings, and how their actions sometimes get out of control. Through this multidisciplinary research, scientists are trying to find the causes of mental illnesses. Once scientists can determine the causes of a mental illness, they can use that knowledge to develop new treatments or to find a cure.



6.2 Risk Factors for Mental Illnesses

Although scientists at this time do not know the causes of mental illnesses, they have identified factors that put individuals at risk. Some of these factors are environmental, some are genetic, and some are social. In fact, all these factors most likely combine to influence whether someone becomes mentally ill. Genetic, environmental, and social factors interact to influence whether someone becomes mentally ill.



Environmental factors such as head injury, poor nutrition, and exposure to toxins (including lead and tobacco smoke) can increase the likelihood of developing a mental illness.



...



Social factors also present risks and can harm an individual’s, especially a child’s, mental health. Social factors include



* severe parental discord,

* death of a family member or close friend,

* parent’s mental illness,

* parent’s criminality,

* overcrowding,

* economic hardship,

* abuse,

* neglect, and

* exposure to violence.

139
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139

PostDec 10, 2008#309

I'm sick of the bums everywhere downtown. I drove by one of the government buildings a few months back and one was pissing all over the side of it.



:evil:

PostDec 10, 2008#310

innov8ion wrote:
bprop wrote:
JCity wrote:Slay should have Larry Rice arrested. the biggest monkey wrench to downtowns revival..


I didn't realize being a monkey wrench to downtown's revival was grounds for arrest.
No, but Rice is guilty of subjugating the homeless and dividing the community. It's a shame that society doesn't care enough about the homeless to provide a competing service that would put him out of business. I suppose without bad, there can be no good.


The truth is is that these bums flock to downtown because that is where they find people to harass, intimidate, and extort money from. My girlfriend won't go downtown alone, my mom was harrassed at the St.Louis public library several times. Most of the time, especially my mom, gave money and acted like she was trying to help the bums to their faces, but the truth is that she was afraid not to give because they almost use intimidation in their panhandling tactics. My friends live downtown on Wash St. and they know to stay away from "Bum Park", aka Lucas Park. When they ask me for money I tell them to **** off. It's worked wonders for me.

5,631
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5,631

PostDec 11, 2008#311

^ Umm, ok. How old are you? 15? And you live in the suburbs somewhere, right?



Perhaps you could be more respectful in referring to other people. You don't know each of their situations, so who are you to stereotype them all?



I live only a block or two away from Lucas Park on Washington Ave, have been there countless times and have always felt safe. If you've got a dog, it's a great place to let them run around in the fenced-off dog park.



A little word of advice. A simple, "no thank you," will work wonders. I've only been subjected to an intimidating panhandler once. I had to be direct with him, and he went along his way.

907
Super MemberSuper Member
907

PostDec 11, 2008#312

Yes, I think some of these people posting have been watching too much TV and never been downtown STL. In the past 12 months, living on washington ave, going out all the time, I might have been asked for change... once...? Since the new ordinance outlawing anyone to ask for money within x amount of feet from a restaurant and no pan handling after the sun sets, has really made a difference. (From what I can tell)



This year, I actually found "harassing" pan handlers in about every other city besides St. Louis. aahh the joys of travel.





Question to members that live downtown. Have you also noticed a decrease in pan handlers that have actually come UP to you?

549
Senior MemberSenior Member
549

PostDec 11, 2008#313

I'm in Soulard, directly across the street from St. Peter & Paul's, which has a homeless shelter. I've lived here five months now and have had zero problems and I've always felt safe. I've been asked a couple times for money, but no one gave me a hard time when I said no... I've certainly never been harassed.



We should feel lucky in St. Louis that our bums aren't even close to as bad as the gypsies in Europe...they harass... and pickpocket like crazy.

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214

PostDec 11, 2008#314

zink wrote:
Question to members that live downtown. Have you also noticed a decrease in pan handlers that have actually come UP to you?


I can happily say, "yes!" When I first started working downtown many years ago I would get panhandled continuously. Now, on occasion it happens maybe 1-4x a month usually when (before it got cold) I was sitting outside eating in front of a restaurant. I have to believe that the enforcement of the ordinance and the vigil of the 4th district have helped.



I "gently" remind them of the City ordinance 67918 for which I would next call the police if they didn't remove themselves from the immediate vicinity.



They usually walk away grumbling about me going to hell or something like that.



http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/ords/data/ord7918.htm



The 4th district's addition of a beat cop has been an awesome idea. It's a welcome addition to the neighborhood to have a cop you see all the time. The neighborhood beat cop who knows you and your family gives the city more of a neighborhood feel. It is also a great lesson for my kid who I can now more effectively teach respect for the law and the people that wear the uniform.

10K
AdministratorAdministrator
10K

PostDec 11, 2008#315

zink wrote:This year, I actually found "harassing" pan handlers in about every other city besides St. Louis. aahh the joys of travel.



Question to members that live downtown. Have you also noticed a decrease in pan handlers that have actually come UP to you?


I love how St. Louisans act like panhandling is so horrible here, but they don't seem to care much when confronted with it in places like Chicago or San Francisco - great cities that have MUCH worse panhandling problems than we do here.



I don't live downtown, but as a downtown worker I've noticed a pretty significant decrease in panhandlers. It's pretty rare that I get hit up for money these days (knock on wood).

1,137
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1,137

PostDec 13, 2008#316

Bus shelter at 14th and Washington is the hang spot of the panhandlers. When I walk past, they spring out, asking for some change. I have actually had a panhandler walk alongside me a while back, over repeated "no", until I told him I would call the cops. He cursed at me, crossed the street and started harassing others.

6,775
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6,775

PostDec 13, 2008#317

STLDTFAN wrote:Bus shelter at 14th and Washington is the hang spot of the panhandlers. When I walk past, they spring out, asking for some change. I have actually had a panhandler walk alongside me a while back, over repeated "no", until I told him I would call the cops. He cursed at me, crossed the street and started harassing others.


Don't even respond. I look straight at them, making it quite clear that I can hear them, but I keep walking and don't say a word. Because as soon as you respond, even by saying no, they know that you have acknowledged them, and if they bother you long enough, you'll cave.



Remember, they are looking for a response, and "no" is a response.

995
Super MemberSuper Member
995

PostDec 13, 2008#318

Remember, they are looking for a response, and "no" is a response.


So is "yes," "good morning," "how are you doing?" "feeling better?" "getting cold," "how are your kids?" "Merry Christmas," "I have an extra pair of gloves, do you want them" and "any luck with that new job?"

6,775
Life MemberLife Member
6,775

PostDec 13, 2008#319

publiceye wrote:
Remember, they are looking for a response, and "no" is a response.


So is "yes," "good morning," "how are you doing?" "feeling better?" "getting cold," "how are your kids?" "Merry Christmas," "I have an extra pair of gloves, do you want them" and "any luck with that new job?"


So is "Your car did not break down, so that makes you a liar", "your kids are not around the corner - that makes you a liar", "No, you're not looking for work, you're a crack head. Stop lying" and "Why should I give you money? You didn't offer to give me any".



But responses require effort. I choose not to expend the effort.

125
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125

PostDec 14, 2008#320

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
publiceye wrote:
Remember, they are looking for a response, and "no" is a response.


So is "yes," "good morning," "how are you doing?" "feeling better?" "getting cold," "how are your kids?" "Merry Christmas," "I have an extra pair of gloves, do you want them" and "any luck with that new job?"


So is "Your car did not break down, so that makes you a liar", "your kids are not around the corner - that makes you a liar", "No, you're not looking for work, you're a crack head. Stop lying" and "Why should I give you money? You didn't offer to give me any".



But responses require effort. I choose not to expend the effort.


I have seen many of these people spending their "collective wages" in Missouri Bar and Grill. If you want to make them happy, buy them a beer while your watching good blues music on Sunday nights.LOL. Don't give handouts on the street. Its a dependency issue that should be supported through program donations and funding, not on the spot (Think prevention, not treatment). I tell myself not to be rude unless the person asking for change is wearing a nice coat worth hundreds of dollars(i usually ask them if they want to trade jackets because "its cold out here"). They look at me like Im an idiot. Its great.



All this said, there are acceptions to every rule. If someone is really having a hard time and the situation is "really bad" I think sometimes it may be our responsiblity as a fellow human beings to take action, but to enable dependence is something else. OPTIONS NOT AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE ARE NOT OPTIONS AT ALL. PEOPLE TEND TO ADAPT TO SITUATIONS BASED ON THEIR SURROUNDING ENVIRONMENT. People wont starve they will just go somewhere else. If your worried about famine, send a check overseas to people who have no outlet for opportunity and are "stuck" in terrible situations. There are plenty of outlets for opportunity here(sometimes they are not first pick, but life sucks, get a helmet). Here is an idea, when you see someone set up with a saxophone, or some kind of appealing entertainment on the street, throw them some money and make sure the guy who just asked you for change is watching.



Last but not least, I request everyone ask themselves this question next time they walk down the street. Do you want to adapt to their environment or do you want them to adapt to yours? The best part about this question is that there is no right or wrong answer, I just lets you know where you stand.

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PostDec 15, 2008#321

Isn't panhandling illegal now in the city? Or did that never pass?

I know the CWE has "Real Change" meters on many street corners and from what I have heard this has helped a bit with the panhandling.



http://www.thecwe.com/realchange.htm



Original story:



http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... enDocument



Why don't we have these Downtown?

214
Junior MemberJunior Member
214

PostDec 15, 2008#322

Here's the ordinance: 67918

http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/ords/data/ord7918.htm



Yes, aggressive panhandling is illegal. And the CWE's implementation has made a marked difference. Personally, I like how the CWE has implemented it, and I think it would be great to do it downtown where we have frequent out of town guests and tourists...



Here's the definition of "aggressive panhandling"...


(1) "Aggressive Panhandling" means panhandling in the following manner:


  • a. To approach or speak to a person in such a manner as would cause a reasonable person to believe that the person is being threatened with
    • 1. Imminent bodily injury; or



      2. The commission of a criminal act upon the person or another person, or upon property in the person's immediate possession;


    b. To persist in panhandling after the person solicited has given a negative response;



    c. To block, either individually or as part of a group of persons, the passage of a solicited person;



    d. To touch a solicited person without the person's consent;



    e. To render any service to a motor vehicle, including but not limited to any cleaning, washing, protecting, guarding or repairing of said vehicle or any portion thereof, without the prior consent of the owner, operator or occupant of such vehicle, and thereafter asking, begging or soliciting alms or payment for the performance of such service, regardless of whether such vehicle is stopped, standing or parked on a public street or upon other public or private property; or



    f. To engage in conduct that would reasonably be construed as intended to intimidate, compel or force a solicited person to make a donation.










Oh and the asbestos dumpster behind Larry's building is gone (found out that this time he did have a permit to abate the asbestos)...

5,433
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5,433

PostDec 16, 2008#323

BrewCrew13 wrote:Why don't we have these Downtown?


Good question. I know some people were worried that anti-panhandling signage would give visitors the wrong impression of downtown, as if panhandlers don't already give people cause for concern.



Saturday morning my wife and I were inside Macy's talking about how we haven't noticed as many panhandlers downtown. She took our son to see the decorated Xmas windows on Olive Street, while I broke away briefly to grab a coffee at Starbucks. Sure enough, within that five minute timeframe, she was approached by a panhandler while walking down Sixth Street to take our son to the other side of Macy's to see the train display at Locust and Seventh streets. Now there's a case of speaking too soon I suppose, even though I still believe panhandling is on the decline overall. :roll:

214
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214

PostDec 16, 2008#324

From Springfield, MO news....


Opening statements are expected today in the jury trial of a former New Life Evangelistic Free Store volunteer accused of raping a woman at the Commercial Street facility, which at the time was being used illegally as a homeless shelter.


http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 8812160383


Charges:

Description: Forcible Sodomy - Deviate Sexual Intercourse By Forcible Compulsion { Felony Unclassified RSMo: 566.060 }


According to court documents they deposed the dental records of the accused.


08/16/2007 Docket Entry: Judge/Clerk - Note

Text: STATE'S MOTION FOR DENTAL EXAMINATION; NOTICE OF HEARING SET FOR 8/28/07 AT 10:30 AM; MOTION TO SHORTEN TIME FILED. /DHB



12/16/2008 Docket Entry: Depositions Filed

Text: DEPOSITIONS OF ERIC WILSON, DDS, TAKEN ON DECEMBER 9, 2008 FILED./SDH


Interestingly... Darin's address from the court documents is:

Springfield/Marshfield

3208 State Hwy. "OO"

(417) 468-6188



Which is one of Larry's "shelters" and also the home of KMRF Radio

http://www.hereshelpnet.org/Shelter.html





http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=320 ... hfield,+MO





Regardless of how this turns out, it just adds more evidence on how NLEC does not have the ability to run a reputable or safe organization, no matter where they are located.

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PostDec 17, 2008#325

Is this a Projects and Construction or am i missing sometthing

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