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PostJul 25, 2010#226

Just a few points. I disagree that the clubs should be moved to a less "obtrusive" location. The way I see it, if you choose to live downtown then you choose to live among the clubs and the hustle and bustle of downtown. If you don't want to be around clubs, then don't live downtown. Adding shootings changes the story in the case of Lure, but I'm talking about just clubs in general.

Second, I see the repeated call for a bigger police presence. My question is how much police do you guys want? When I'm downtown late going to Nora's or wherever I feel like I'm surrounded by police. Much more and I would feel like I was in an occupied country or something.

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PostJul 25, 2010#227

I said that Lure are responsible for the actions of their patrons, such as excessive drinking, however the previously cited liquor regulation says within the immediate vicinity not a few blocks away in some parking lot. Are patrons bringing guns into the club? Lure should be held accountable for fights and loudness outside and I suggested measures which Lure should do in order to reduce that. I also argued that 18+ should be eliminated while age perhaps even being raised to higher than 21 as quite a few bars on the North Side do. I don't think really any establishment after 9PM should be allowed 18 if it does not serve a significant amount of food. If people don't want Police then have them provide more private security. If Lure is not willing to make improvements then fine close them, but banning hip hop night, racial profiling, banning G-Rides, again isn't the solution.

I don't need to defend the majority because numerical superiority does that already. It's a well know fact shown in sociology, and social science, that whites are not comfortable in neighborhoods after they reach a specific concentration of non-whites. This is readily apparent also when looking at the history of our region's housing patterns. Are people on this forum saying that, independent of crime, downtown would be as popular regionally as a destination and neighborhood if it were a majority minority area? This is important because once this club closes I am sure other establishments will face ever increasing scrutiny when they wish to open downtown simply because of the target patron demographic. I am sorry if I am a troll for suggesting that's a problem, but we happen to be living in a City where whites are not the majority so I think we should accommodate everyone.

How many postings in this thread brought up hip hop and music as the issue? Look at the first page:
Downtown2007 wrote:They both have Hip Hop theme on Thurs nights which fabricates the issue. The stats will tell you that yes it is more likely that Hip Hop clubs cause more trouble than other places. There have been numerous hip hop clubs shut down because of the trouble that followed them. The excise commissioner even said that Hip Hop clubs are usually the kiss of death from his past experience.
Like the tea party movement control your message if you don't want to be called racist in a town which has a history of racial conflict!

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PostJul 25, 2010#228

^ Doug, what's the weather like in your ivory tower?

^^ Just to clarify, they don't hold 18 and up nights.

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PostJul 25, 2010#229

innov8ion wrote:Just to clarify, they don't hold 18 and up nights.
I take it 15 does?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 73a14.html
"I really like this place," said Michelle Longo, 20, as she headed into 15. "That's why we come every Thursday."

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PostJul 26, 2010#230

ben1040 wrote:
innov8ion wrote:Just to clarify, they don't hold 18 and up nights.
I take it 15 does?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 73a14.html
"I really like this place," said Michelle Longo, 20, as she headed into 15. "That's why we come every Thursday."
That article has a very strange headline.

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PostJul 26, 2010#231

innov8ion wrote:^ Doug, what's the weather like in your ivory tower?
Better than the reduction in foot traffic I saw this Saturday after I left Lucas Park Grille at 2:45.

Violence a few blocks away from entertainment venues doesn't raise the attention of the entire City if this occurs in areas of town which that type of activity is "expected to occur." When that activity goes into the wrong neighborhood, one which billions have been invested into, watch out because the hammer is coming down!

Maybe this wouldn't happen if we didn't ignore areas a few blocks north of Washington Avenue, built up street other barriers, saying you're all victims for living there (since you still do you must enjoy that lifestyle). We'll give you zero support, because you're on your own, in addressing the squalor which built up for decades due to racist public policy and private sector discrimination. If we cared for residents captured by concentrated poverty who have limited capacity to barely pay the bills independent of political and neighborhood organization, perhaps we wouldn't have the sh*t we ignored spilling over onto our pristine Washington Avenue? This administration has done about as much for North St. Louis as Newt Gingrich did and would have liked to when he argued for abolishing HUD during the Contract on America. What do you expect to occur on Washington Avenue in a City where large sections in geographic proximity have been planned to rot while the only solution City Hall can seem to muster happens to be demolition and redevelopment by someone who specializes in cornfield retrofits?

Like Clinton blamed the L.A. riots on "twelve years of denial and neglect," what could happen potentially when areas of our City have been planned into destruction? I am not forgiving the violence near and several blocks away from Lure, however if we want healthy neighborhoods anywhere in our City we cannot believe they exist in a vacuum independent of others. We cannot solve crime on an exclusively block by block basis while turning our backs to other areas expecting defensive planning or policing to solve the problem. We can't demolish McRee Town, thinking that will reduce crime, then scratch our heads as crime increases in surrounding areas. If North St. Louis had community development and preservation instead of the Team Four Plan it would be much more like Soulard today and we probably wouldn't be talking about shootings on Washington Avenue. We can't go back in time, but we should think about how depleted environments lacking jobs and basic services might produce negative behaviors which we don't have because of our middle class suburban backgrounds. This is hard for many to understand.

The crime must stop and going forward the Club should take steps which I again argued for and others have proposed. I caution against closing down the club because of the music -- making sure the area doesn't go as Gaslight Square did because of what stltoday commenter and others argue :
It's "Hand signaling idiots" like the fool hanging from the car,and all others behind him be damned. Do you remember "Gaslight Square"? You see what they did to that venue
GoneCorporate wrote:Sitting outside Hair of the Dog a month ago gave me my first impression of Thursday nights at Lure, with the clientele wrapping down the street near our seats on the sidewalk. Included: skin-tight pants on really, really, really fat girls; white t's; jean shorts with the cheeks hanging out; shouting matching; shoving; threats. Some dudes were even giving hand signal.
If you don't see how racism and profiling plays into this issue then open your eyes. Not everyone in a G-Ride has contraband in their car, not everyone at Lure is involved in fights, and finally Hip Hop music does not automatically cause ultra-violence. I've been at several different venues across this City, North and South, being the only white person in the place and not been subject to violence, threats, or seen any of the above. We, however, seem to think that simply because a person drives a certain car or dresses a way that individual must be threatening.

It is a fact that in St. Louis the racial composition of ones neighborhood determines the quality and frequency of public service delivery in our City. These incidents would have never reached so high on the institutional agenda if not for where they happens to be occurring. I might be sitting in an "ivory tower," but my telescope still affords me a perspective that isn't skewed. In the end I accept that your advocacy for McKee and Reagan or Thatcherite devotion to the personal responsibility view probably prevents a meeting of our minds. I do agree with you that if owner isn't cooperative then perhaps there is no other alternative than closing the club, though many steps should be taken before that occurs.

Hopefully, at least for some, soon the G-Rides will move back North of Delmar where that type of element belongs. But they will return and this will probably happen all over again. I promise I won't "troll" with my socialist, crime-apologetic agenda when that occurs.

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PostJul 26, 2010#232

tl;dr

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PostJul 26, 2010#233

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:tl;dr
ts; rbwnwi

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PostJul 26, 2010#234

Doug wrote:
GoneCorporate wrote:Sitting outside Hair of the Dog a month ago gave me my first impression of Thursday nights at Lure, with the clientele wrapping down the street near our seats on the sidewalk. Included: skin-tight pants on really, really, really fat girls; white t's; jean shorts with the cheeks hanging out; shouting matching; shoving; threats. Some dudes were even giving hand signal.
If you don't see how racism and profiling plays into this issue then open your eyes. Not everyone in a G-Ride has contraband in their car, not everyone at Lure is involved in fights, and finally Hip Hop music does not automatically cause ultra-violence. I've been at several different venues across this City, North and South, being the only white person in the place and not been subject to violence, threats, or seen any of the above. We, however, seem to think that simply because a person drives a certain car or dresses a way that individual must be threatening.
Doug, you're the one pitching out stereotypes here. GoneCorporate wasn't being racist or profiling, he was describing a sh*tty crowd in front of Lure.

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PostJul 26, 2010#235

So according to Doug the residents of Washington Avenue have to take the option of closing a club with 50 police calls a year and an a-hole owner off the table until ALL urban ills in this nation have been solved. Yeah, makes sense :roll:

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PostJul 26, 2010#236

I'm not even sure that it's necessary to respond to Doug anymore... Reality is lost to him. At least he admits to sitting in an ivory tower without a clue.

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PostJul 26, 2010#237

innov8ion wrote:I'm not even sure that it's necessary to respond to Doug anymore... Reality is lost to him. At least he admits to sitting in an ivory tower without a clue.
Thus the snarky "tl;dr" above. It's the same wall-of-text nonsense as the wall-of-text nonsense before it.

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PostJul 26, 2010#238

Doug,
You make more sense with the last two posts +1. It may be too little too late though. You could have offered a different perspective on the situation early on if you would have omitted the insulting / stereotype troll posts. Practice what you preach.

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PostJul 26, 2010#239

Doug is obviously a smart guy. However, he's so intent on promoting his crusade against racial disparity (in itself a noble cause) that he's distorting any non-racial issue that involves African-Americans to further his agenda. This will ultimately hurt not only his own cause, it will also hamper progress towards a solution.

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PostJul 27, 2010#240

Ha, well maybe so but I wasn't the one posting pictures of African Americans in their cars calling for them to be banned. Again if you don't want racism to be brought up don't give us socialists ammunition to fire upon your agenda. If this was only about law and order then the mention of hip hop clubs bringing trash or being the kiss of death shouldn't have been an issue. If you didn't know quite a few places across this City outside of your downtown bubble have hip hop nights with African American patrons. I've never been stabbed or shot for being in attendance. If it's about the owner then make it so from the beginning. Call people out immediately. This City has had decades of racial conflict. You can't expect to excuse yourself from it even if your intentions are noble.

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PostJul 27, 2010#241

Exhibit A for the defense.
Moorlander wrote:



The prosecution rests your honor.

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PostJul 27, 2010#242

So what was this last Sunday night/Monday morning like? My friend who lives in the Annex Lofts is out of town and wasn't able to do his usual Facebook posting about being woken up.
Doug wrote:Ha, well maybe so but I wasn't the one posting pictures of African Americans in their cars calling for them to be banned. Again if you don't want racism to be brought up don't give us socialists ammunition to fire upon your agenda. If this was only about law and order then the mention of hip hop clubs bringing trash or being the kiss of death shouldn't have been an issue. If you didn't know quite a few places across this City outside of your downtown bubble have hip hop nights with African American patrons. I've never been stabbed or shot for being in attendance. If it's about the owner then make it so from the beginning. Call people out immediately. This City has had decades of racial conflict. You can't expect to excuse yourself from it even if your intentions are noble.
Go on Doug: please tell us more. I love hearing how we're all a bunch of racist crackers and you are the one voice who sees how things truly are in St. Louis. Please tell me more about racism, economic injustice and how bars/nightclubs operate since I have no clue how this all works.

PostJul 27, 2010#243

Please don't hurt me: I just want to ask this question.

A group of us were talking recently while sitting at Hair of the Dog and we all threw this idea around: what if curb parking was banned on popular nights along Washington Ave? (Thursday to Sunday) Would this help clear crowds out a little faster at closing time?

In Chicago around Rush and Division street parking is not allowed on popular nights in order to keep things flowing better. I've also seen the same thing in key areas of Denver, Austin and Nashville.

Maybe if the crowds wouldn't build up because people couldn't leave: some of the fights and arguments wouldn't occur?

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PostJul 27, 2010#244

Lure Protest & Petition Information
- Protest Letter: http://j.mp/Lure-Protest-Letter
- Petiton: http://j.mp/Lure-Petition

In this instance, the petition circle is defined as owners in the first three floors of the following buildings:

- Meridian Lofts
- Lucas Lofts
- Elder Shirt Lofts
- The Bogen Lofts

---

Dear Neighbors,

A group of Downtown residents have decided to move forward with a protest petition related to the liquor license of the nightclub, Lure, which operates at 1204 Washington.

A fact that is widely misunderstood is that the neighbors of businesses with liquor licenses have the right and the responsibility to police the conduct of establishments that possess liquor licenses. The police, the aldermen, the Mayor office, and even the excise / liquor license commissioner are all largely powerless in this area, having delegated their responsibility for monitoring the conduct of liquor licensees to those who are most impacted by the positive or negative operation of such a business, the property owners adjacent to such an operation, and in particular the residents. Just as these neighbors have the right to consent to the granting of a liquor license, through their signatures on petitions presented by the licensee, these neighbors also have the right to call into question whether an establishment should retain their liquor license due to the behavior of the licensee and its patrons. This group of neighbors is now acting on their responsibility to call into question the right of Lure to retain their liquor license based on a long history of horrendous behavior that has gone uncorrected despite many complaints and requests.

The correct legal vehicle for this group of neighbors to call into question Lure’s unsanctioned right to retain their liquor license is a protest petition. A protest petition is a document that, if signed by a majority of property owners within a 350 foot circle of an establishment such as Lure, triggers a series of hearings in front of the excise commissioner of the City of St. Louis. After hearing evidence from the licensee, the neighbors, the police, and other interested parties, the excise commissioner (subject to legal review from the associate circuit court) will issue a ruling about the establishment’s liquor license. He may determine that there is no reason to sanction the liquor license, he may put conditions on the retention of the license, or he may terminate the liquor license, depending on his evaluation of the evidence presented. This protest petition does not determine the outcome of the process, it just starts things moving.

The signatories below are asking that the owners of properties / condominiums on the first, second, or third floors (the legally entitled signatories), our neighbors, consider signing the attached petition that will initiate the review process related to the liquor license of Lure. We would not make this ask, or engage in this time consuming and difficult process, without good reason; we have no personal vendetta or excess of free time that have driven us to do this. We have valid reasons for believing that Lure has become a detriment to this neighborhood, which is the legal standard of review that the excise commissioner will use.

The conduct of the operators of Lure, and its patrons (for which Lure is responsible), has been abysmal and is deteriorating. In our opinion, the operators of Lure have never embraced the concept that they are part of a community, and that they need to adjust their behaviors in order to mitigate any negative impacts of their operation on their neighbors. Examples of the detrimental impacts of Lure on our neighborhood include, but are not limited, to the following:

- On June 11, 2010, at around 2 AM, police that were responding to a fight immediately after an event at Lure were fired on by individuals wielding assault rifles
- On January 1, 2009, a bar fight involving patrons of Lure spilled out into the residential lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condominiums, resulting in blood spraying the floor, walls, and furniture of the lobby
- Fights and shouting matches, particularly in early hours of the morning after Lure’s patrons are ejected from the club, are a regular occurrence
- In their own lobby, which serves as the emergency exit for Lure, the residents of the Jack Thompson Square condos have been threatened and intimidated by drunken patrons of Lure, who casually use that lobby for reasons other than emergency exit
- The St. Louis Metropolitan Police have responded to calls for service associated with Lure at least 50 times, diverting our police from other tasks essential to keeping our neighborhood safe
- On numerous occasions, trash and broken glass associated with Lure have littered the front entry to the Jack Thompson Square condominiums (which is also the emergency exit for Lure); trash and leaflets advertising events at Lure are continually found in the parking lot of the Jack Thompson Square condos
- Cigarette smoke from Lure continually escapes Lure into the lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condos, through the elevator shaft and into the upper floor residential lobbies and condominiums, subjecting the building residents to the health hazard and disgusting odor of intense second hand smoke; Lure has consistently failed to correct this problem despite many requests
- Lure has regularly coned off up to 15 parking spaces for their valet service, without having a permit to do so, occupying parking spaces that are essential to other neighborhood retailers
- The fire alarm for the Jack Thompson Square building has been pulled by Lure patrons or otherwise set off so often that the residents of the building have stopped responding to the alarm, placing the residents at elevated risk in the event of a real fire
- Minors sneak into Lure through the rear entrance of the club by breaking into the residential lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condos
- The music played at Lure is so loud that residents on the upper floors of the building feel their walls and furniture vibrate throughout of the night
- Vomit is regularly found in the lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condos, and drunken patrons of Lure are regularly found passed out in the lobby or on the building stairs adjacent to the lobby
- Furniture and floor tiles have been broken in the lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condos by Lure patrons

This list of behavioral problems is by no means all inclusive. And, many of these problems have been regularly brought to the attention to the operators of Lure, with effectively no response.

In fact, the only real response the operators of Lure have offered are public accusations that the entire neighborhood is racist and only responding to the presence of black patrons at Lure on its weekly hip-hop nights. This a classic response of a club operator who is unwilling to take responsibility for its behaviors and is trying to use groundless accusations to shift blame away from itself. The problematic behaviors of the patrons and owners of Lure happen on all the nights the club is open, not just the nights featuring hip-hop music, and stretch far into the past. Moreover, Downtown’s residents have chosen to move Downtown precisely because of their embrace of diversity of all kinds and their appreciation for living in close proximity to other humans, whatever their race, class, or beliefs. The calculated leveling of accusations of racism on a blanket basis are just another example of the lack of respect the owners of Lure have for our community and the shameless manipulations they will engage in to protect their selfish interests. From the perspective of this group of neighbors, the problem here is bad behavior, and the failure of Lure’s owner to control that bad behavior, not race.

Our neighbors, we request that you read and consider the above, and attempt to put yourselves in the shoes of those of us who are most affected by living in close proximity (and in some cases above) to Lure. If you agree that it is appropriate that the status of the liquor license of Lure be considered by the excise commissioner at a hearing in the near future, subject to the presentation of evidence by the protest representatives and the club owner, please sign the adjacent petition where indicated. We thank you very much for your consideration of our rights as residents.

After signing the attached petition, you can deliver it in two ways. With time being of the essence, we ask that you consider calling Ken Gabel at 574-0347, who is available from 8 am to 4 pm every day. He will dispatch someone to pick up the petition personally within 30 minutes. If you would prefer to mail the petition, an addressed, stamped envelope is included for your convenience.

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PostJul 27, 2010#245

Few Questions...

1. So just to confirm, you have to be a residence in the buildings listed above in order to sign?
2. Why is there only 1 infraction listed on the petition?

On a side note...why was the meeting canceled tonight?

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PostJul 27, 2010#246

Downtown2007 wrote:Few Questions...

1. So just to confirm, you have to be a residence in the buildings listed above in order to sign?
You must own a unit on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd floors in the Meridian, Elder Shirt, Lucas, or Bogen Lofts.
Downtown2007 wrote:2. Why is there only 1 infraction listed on the petition?
Many examples of detrimental impacts were listed.
Downtown2007 wrote:On a side note...why was the meeting canceled tonight?
No clue. You could ask Eula...

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PostJul 27, 2010#247

I thought that Eula already had a petition with all the necessary signatures required. Was that not the case?

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PostJul 28, 2010#248

Downtown2007 wrote:I thought that Eula already had a petition with all the necessary signatures required. Was that not the case?
Ten signatures were necessary to trigger an excise hearing. That has been attained. The push is now to obtain a majority protest against Club Lure within the petition circle for said excise hearing. Check out the key facets of the law below.
http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/ords/data/ord8536.htm

14.01.310 Petition circle.

14.01.344 Property Owner.

14.08.040 License detrimental to neighborhood-Factors to be considered by Excise Commissioner in making determination.

14.08.110 Protests against licenses or applications-When and how initiated.

14.08.120 Protest petitions-Contents-Time for collection of signatures.

14.08.130 Hearing on protest-Notice-Procedure.

14.08.140 Protests-Necessity of majority of signatures on petition protesting continuation of license-Effect of majority of signatures on petition protesting a license application.

14.08.150 Protests-Allocation of burden of proof-Grounds for sustaining protests-Effect of sustaining protest.

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PostJul 28, 2010#249



St. Louis must protect public safety downtown

The Editorial Board | Posted: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:00 pm

Downtown St. Louis has toiled for more than a decade to create the kind of nightlife that would draw visitors and residents seeking a hip, urban lifestyle.

The city now boasts busy nightclubs and restaurants throughout the loft district; but hipness also is suffering growing pains.

link: http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/co ... 2bc8b.html

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PostJul 28, 2010#250

^I'm certainly not the P-D's biggest fan but I think this article sums it up quite well.
Doug, do you concur ?

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