LOL!!!newstl2020 wrote:Doug has messed with my brain.
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The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Again, only 2 clubs are being targeted here. No one is calling for the other 18 (or whatever) to be shut down.
innov8ion wrote:Or perhaps downtown has matured to the point where clubs are no longer welcome and can instead inhabit non-residential areas such as the Landing & Lumiere.
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Doug wrote:The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Again, only 2 clubs are being targeted here. No one is calling for the other 18 (or whatever) to be shut down.innov8ion wrote:Or perhaps downtown has matured to the point where clubs are no longer welcome and can instead inhabit non-residential areas such as the Landing & Lumiere.
I think it's okay for two people to have differing opinions.
Doug, I think you need to take a step back and perhaps recalibrate your racismometer. It appears that there is plenty of evidence that these guys, esp the owners/managers of Lure, are not responsible business owners nor particularly good neighbors.
The clash between visitors and neighbors is nothing new nor is it unique to downtown. It happens in every city.
The Shaw vs Big Ballz kickball fight had similar elements except the race issue. Did that leave you feeling hollow inside?
The issue of teenagers hanging out in the Loop became an issue when large groups of kids began intimidating customers. Your problem appears to be that white customers = "Chads" thus are not worthy of your concern.
Are you really that comfortable with the amount of gunfire occuring in and around these clubs?
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And? You realize we're talking about 2 different things here, right?Doug wrote:The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Again, only 2 clubs are being targeted here. No one is calling for the other 18 (or whatever) to be shut down.innov8ion wrote:Or perhaps downtown has matured to the point where clubs are no longer welcome and can instead inhabit non-residential areas such as the Landing & Lumiere.
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Doug, again I love and have always desired to live in a vibrant urban setting full of street noise, bars, clubs, shops, restaurants, etc. This is what I think we all wanted. But what we didnt want is the shootings, violent fights, excessive screaming from people that quite frankly do not know how to act. This has the potential to hurt the value of the area and quite frankly the rest of the city. Your a moron if you fail to see this.Doug wrote:When people on this forum advocate banning G-Rides downtown then I think the owners of Lure have a point. The early comments on this thread certainly had hints of racism such as as those regarding the Black Eyed Pea's and Chingy brining gun violence to the area. The owners of these clubs cannot filter everyone who patronizes their clubs and I don't believe these shootings were taking place inside. How can you tell if someone is going to cause a problem? By their clothes or the way they dress? Discrimination. If there's an issue with violence outside then make sure the area has a heavier police presence. Perhaps the owners could pay extra for these police? Bourbon Street, and the French Quarter, has 100 times the amount of debauchery that exists at these two or three isolated venues. It's also arguably one of the safest areas of New Orleans and has quite a large amount of African American visitors. Maybe the police here should figure out how the NOPD controls these large crowds? I can say from personal experience they don't take any bullsh*t. Beyond that how about the police keep their larger presence downtown while the owners of Lure could remove any 18+ nights as well as maybe closing at 1:30 during the week?
If people don't like smoke or loud music then don't live above or near a club. Cities need entertainment areas. If Washington Avenue residents want an insular, quiet street then simply say that. Get a neighborhood plan and zoning changes which prohibit clubs and do a liquor moratorium. That will solve the problem. But it would also keep out whites who attend these venues on non-hip hip nights and also prohibit the opening of new Chad-friendly sports bars. You can't discriminate against a class of businesses selectively based upon the type of patrons they might attract a few nights a week. Not only is that improbable legally it's racist. If anything the crime on Washington Avenue should bring not "how do we get them out of our neighborhood," but "how can we solve crime in our City regardless of neighborhood."
Instead of ruining the area for everyone who visits, if Washington Avenue residents have a problem with noise then relocate to a private street in the Central West End where the public realm does not exist. This way they can selectively choose when they're exposed to noise pollution or G-Rides as they visit the areas which might contain them. If we're talking about defensible space?
Established neighborhoods have a reputation for attributes such as Soulard's partying scene. Those who move there should expect a level of noise. However, this conflict obviously exists because Washington Avenue isn't established and has different proposed directions. I agree that crime must be controlled for the area to survive but a quiet, boring downtown sounds like one not worth visiting or living near. Turning Washington Avenue into Creve Coeur with terra cotta will not progress downtown. People don't visit downtown at night in order to simply stare at your residential loft. They visit because it's a regionally unique environment in which to throw back a few beers, dance, and meet people.Don't be selfish and think you posses exclusive ownership over the neighborhood simply because you rent or own a loft. Downtown is a destination and you live there! We should be happy for its success! Should we put up street barriers or a gated fence around Washington Avenue so Dave and Company can determine who gets in? This conflict reminds me of the anti-Latino stuff which occurred on Cherokee Street a few years ago. Maybe you guys spend too much time inside your secure loft because downtown's sidewalks are surely dead as a doornail absent people visiting from outside its boundaries. It has not "matured" enough to the point where it can throw everyone out who isn't a resident. Maybe if you had 50,000 residents, but I bet that a lot of them would leave if you decided to ban entertainment from the area. One of the benefits of urban living arises from being able to party and not drive home. Hopefully a solution can be found which reduces crime and preserves our nightlife as there's no correlation between them.innov8ion wrote:Or perhaps downtown has matured to the point where clubs are no longer welcome and can instead inhabit non-residential areas such as the Landing & Lumiere?
If a condo owner shares their building with a nightclub owner and smoke fills their unit from the club then its ths clubs responsibility to fix it. Neighbors are supposed to respect each other and do their best to live together and thats is what Lure has failed to do since a year and a half ago. They ignored the complaints, refused to fix the issues, and have betrayed the other residents. Nobody that lives in the Grace lofts has issues with Flannerys because they have made it a non issue by fixing it from the beginning.
I dont care if people want to drive their g-rides down the street but also respect that there are other people around and playing your sterio at full blast and setting off cars alarms are excessive and obnoxious.
i don't care what kind of vehicle it is. if the driver insists on being a noise nuisance and/or drives recklessly in an area packed with pedestrians, then he is an a**hole and should be reprimanded.when people on this forum advocate banning G-Rides downtown
also, it's not like this would be the first time in history that "cruising" has been banned from an STL street. have you ever heard of Lindbergh?
Below is an email I sent tonight to the owners of Club Lure, downtown residents, and members of the media. It can't get much more clear for the owners of Club Lure, Doug and ya'll...
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Robert, Nick & Tony (Club Lure Owners),
Thanks for the response. I agree that your investment in Lure and all that goes with it has been threatened and I can imagine it feels like being up against a wall with nowhere to go. That's why this situation is being taken very seriously by downtown residents. But it's not as if this wall (and threat) appeared out of thin air. You're well aware that it's your actions over the years that have moved you ever closer and closer to it.
For better or worse, we are all part of the same downtown community. This same community that has attracted tolerant residents (and visitors) because of its diversity -- racial or otherwise. In a community, just as in any relationship, we must be sensitive to one another and make adjustments as necessary to maintain harmony. When such an imbalance as this occurs over time, and with no progress, sometimes one solution is all that remains. And clearly you know that a liquor license is a privilege, not a right.
I won't belabor the evidence because it's all been said before. But you had an opportunity to abate smoke, noise and remedy other problems over a year ago. What was your response? That you and the building owner couldn't afford the equipment to abate smoke or noise. A small fraction of your revenues would have gone a long way to pay dividends in goodwill with your neighbors, right? But Tony Trupiano went as far to bully those affected and state that they shouldn't have bought a condo over a nightclub in the first place. It was these actions that moved you closer to the wall.
A litany of negative behavior by both yourselves and your patrons has occurred over time, and not just on any specific day. Numerous instances of fighting and shouting matches by your patrons have taken place both inside the lobby of the Jack Thompson condominiums and outside the club itself. On June 11th, the police responded to a fight immediately after one of your events and were fired upon by individuals carrying assault rifles. You've repeatedly been asked to conduct more responsible events but unfortunately, nothing material has changed. Your actions, inaction, and inability to claim accountability have drawn you closer and closer to the wall.
After June 11th, the downtown community became increasingly concerned and safety meetings commenced with you, the DSLRA, and the Downtown Partnership. When the city announced earlier this week that it was cracking down on three downtown clubs, to include Lure, how did you respond? Instead of claiming any responsibility whatsoever, you wholly deflected it, publicly and outrageously both accused the downtown neighborhood of racism and blamed the actions of your patrons on the police! You were even ridiculous enough to suggest that if a disturbance happened outside a bank, that perhaps it should be closed too. Please take my advice, and given all that has come out of your mouths, don't quit your day jobs and become publicists. Your pitiful and disdainful actions now have you pressed up against the wall. But none of this is your fault, right?
As stated earlier, we are a diverse and tolerant community. But we can only be so tolerant when faced with operators like you that subject our neighborhood to such poor treatment on any given day (and not just any particular one.) You guys (and your neighbors) are smart enough to know that this is not about hip-hop music or race -- it's about the behavior of you and the patrons that walk in and out of your doors.
In fact, your selfish manipulation and distortion of these facts are perhaps your most egregious offense. In doing so, you have purposefully attempted to inflame and divide our police force, neighborhood, and entire city across racial lines. As Jake mentioned, you knew that if you slung enough mud and divided us, then perhaps we would fall and leave you standing. Thankfully, we're wise enough to know better. And yes, we're still united and standing.
As you have asked, and since this situation is so important to you, I will give you a call over the weekend to discuss. But there's nothing that can be said during our conversation or in Tuesday's meeting that can change what has transpired. Ever since we were young, we were taught accountability. That day of accountability is to come soon for Club Lure. It's a shame that it has come to this, but you have brought us to this point.
There is nothing more of substance left to be said...
Respectfully,
Dave
---
Robert, Nick & Tony (Club Lure Owners),
Thanks for the response. I agree that your investment in Lure and all that goes with it has been threatened and I can imagine it feels like being up against a wall with nowhere to go. That's why this situation is being taken very seriously by downtown residents. But it's not as if this wall (and threat) appeared out of thin air. You're well aware that it's your actions over the years that have moved you ever closer and closer to it.
For better or worse, we are all part of the same downtown community. This same community that has attracted tolerant residents (and visitors) because of its diversity -- racial or otherwise. In a community, just as in any relationship, we must be sensitive to one another and make adjustments as necessary to maintain harmony. When such an imbalance as this occurs over time, and with no progress, sometimes one solution is all that remains. And clearly you know that a liquor license is a privilege, not a right.
I won't belabor the evidence because it's all been said before. But you had an opportunity to abate smoke, noise and remedy other problems over a year ago. What was your response? That you and the building owner couldn't afford the equipment to abate smoke or noise. A small fraction of your revenues would have gone a long way to pay dividends in goodwill with your neighbors, right? But Tony Trupiano went as far to bully those affected and state that they shouldn't have bought a condo over a nightclub in the first place. It was these actions that moved you closer to the wall.
A litany of negative behavior by both yourselves and your patrons has occurred over time, and not just on any specific day. Numerous instances of fighting and shouting matches by your patrons have taken place both inside the lobby of the Jack Thompson condominiums and outside the club itself. On June 11th, the police responded to a fight immediately after one of your events and were fired upon by individuals carrying assault rifles. You've repeatedly been asked to conduct more responsible events but unfortunately, nothing material has changed. Your actions, inaction, and inability to claim accountability have drawn you closer and closer to the wall.
After June 11th, the downtown community became increasingly concerned and safety meetings commenced with you, the DSLRA, and the Downtown Partnership. When the city announced earlier this week that it was cracking down on three downtown clubs, to include Lure, how did you respond? Instead of claiming any responsibility whatsoever, you wholly deflected it, publicly and outrageously both accused the downtown neighborhood of racism and blamed the actions of your patrons on the police! You were even ridiculous enough to suggest that if a disturbance happened outside a bank, that perhaps it should be closed too. Please take my advice, and given all that has come out of your mouths, don't quit your day jobs and become publicists. Your pitiful and disdainful actions now have you pressed up against the wall. But none of this is your fault, right?
As stated earlier, we are a diverse and tolerant community. But we can only be so tolerant when faced with operators like you that subject our neighborhood to such poor treatment on any given day (and not just any particular one.) You guys (and your neighbors) are smart enough to know that this is not about hip-hop music or race -- it's about the behavior of you and the patrons that walk in and out of your doors.
In fact, your selfish manipulation and distortion of these facts are perhaps your most egregious offense. In doing so, you have purposefully attempted to inflame and divide our police force, neighborhood, and entire city across racial lines. As Jake mentioned, you knew that if you slung enough mud and divided us, then perhaps we would fall and leave you standing. Thankfully, we're wise enough to know better. And yes, we're still united and standing.
As you have asked, and since this situation is so important to you, I will give you a call over the weekend to discuss. But there's nothing that can be said during our conversation or in Tuesday's meeting that can change what has transpired. Ever since we were young, we were taught accountability. That day of accountability is to come soon for Club Lure. It's a shame that it has come to this, but you have brought us to this point.
There is nothing more of substance left to be said...
Respectfully,
Dave
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That pretty much sums it up.
They treated their neighbors like crap for over a year, and now that Kraiberg's on their ass, they want to play nice.
This was in an email earlier today from Lure:
I'm not even sure why you're wasting your time calling them. But that's up to you. I would love to hear the sob story they try to feed you.
They treated their neighbors like crap for over a year, and now that Kraiberg's on their ass, they want to play nice.
This was in an email earlier today from Lure:
I have to wonder how he said that with a straight face.Nobody is reading or listening to all the good we want to help in doing for the city and neighborhood!
I'm not even sure why you're wasting your time calling them. But that's up to you. I would love to hear the sob story they try to feed you.
My concern is you guys go all Craig Schmid and kill what I enjoyed so rigorously tonight. Downtown has not been this alive in decades. People visiting getting drunk and making noise might be a nuisance but it's people coming downtown and enjoying what we invested our public money and sweat into. We have a surplus of residential property available and a good way to ensure it doesn't get filled would be to go ape sh*t and ban entertainment because a club or two might be facilitating a public safety concern. Dave said that perhaps Washington Avenue no longer needs these clubs. I can say that from tonight and many others it would be a bedroom community if not for those spending their money in our City. Bedroom communities are not the core of regions. We shouldn't forget that.
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mcarril wrote:innov8ion wrote:I was talking with some more people about this. Two people I have spoken with said the shots occurred near 11th and Locust; .
Innov8ion, i am not sure the night you are talking about, but the week before last (I can't remember the day) I woke up around 2:30 - 3:00 in the morning and went into my living room because I thought I heard my cats knock something over. Anyway, I was just looking out of my windows for a moment when I saw two cars speed south on 11th (the wrong way) and I heard 5-6 distinctive gun shots as they drove by. It really scared the sh*t out of me even though I was up in my place looking down at what was going on.
Nice Avatar by the way.
This is from the Lucky's thread in December of 2007. I guess everyone has forgot about all of the chaos Lucky's/Lure caused when they opened in 2007. I watched 3 separate shootings in late 2007 and early 2008. Called 911 each time, police responded, talked to the neighborhood stabilization officer, Daphne and got no where with Kraiberg and the liquor control. I just hope the city will review and base their decision on all problems with Lucky's/Lure not just the recent activity. The Trupiano's are not good neighbors and have no place in the city of St Louis - not just because of yuppie loft dweller but because the crime they encourage creates a black mark in the eyes of the rest of the region, we do not need another reason for the county residents to be afraid of the city.
A personal note to Doug - get over yourself. This is not a black or white issue - this is an issue of the owners of this club have terrorized a neighborhood for almost 3 years. If you are so passionate about saving them - ask them to move to your neighborhood - see what happens when you are woken up at 3 am as gunfire rings out. Explain to your 12 year old that gunfire is ok because we live in a vibrant city. Bull S*#t! If this was happening in your neighborhood you would want them closed down just as much as we do. We (all residents of DT) moved down here for the diversity - diversity does not include gunfire.
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Can you imagine what Doug's response would be if it were a country bar downtown that had 50 police calls and there were shootings between white good ole boys afterward in the lot?
If their owners constantly gave the middle finger to concerned residents and hung signs up in the windows saying "Downtown Does Not Like Good Ole Boys"?
Doug mentions New Orleans, a city that I visit at least twice a year. A couple of years ago a club on Decatur in the French Quarter was the scene of a couple of shootings. The club was quickly closed and while I don't know the details of it's closure from my friends in the hospitality industry there it was a concern of residents as well as hotels, restaurants and bars who did not want their business hurt. Sure people come down to nabes like the FQ to drink, dance and go crazy but even in the Vieux Carre gunplay is NOT celebrated as part of the urban fabric.
If their owners constantly gave the middle finger to concerned residents and hung signs up in the windows saying "Downtown Does Not Like Good Ole Boys"?
Doug mentions New Orleans, a city that I visit at least twice a year. A couple of years ago a club on Decatur in the French Quarter was the scene of a couple of shootings. The club was quickly closed and while I don't know the details of it's closure from my friends in the hospitality industry there it was a concern of residents as well as hotels, restaurants and bars who did not want their business hurt. Sure people come down to nabes like the FQ to drink, dance and go crazy but even in the Vieux Carre gunplay is NOT celebrated as part of the urban fabric.
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You really, truly don't get it, do you?Doug wrote:My concern is you guys go all Craig Schmid and kill what I enjoyed so rigorously tonight. Downtown has not been this alive in decades. People visiting getting drunk and making noise might be a nuisance but it's people coming downtown and enjoying what we invested our public money and sweat into. We have a surplus of residential property available and a good way to ensure it doesn't get filled would be to go ape sh*t and ban entertainment because a club or two might be facilitating a public safety concern. Dave said that perhaps Washington Avenue no longer needs these clubs. I can say that from tonight and many others it would be a bedroom community if not for those spending their money in our City. Bedroom communities are not the core of regions. We shouldn't forget that.
Doug wrote:My concern is you guys go all Craig Schmid and kill what I enjoyed so rigorously tonight.
Don't worry, Doug. Nobody wants that.
Downtown has not been this alive in decades. People visiting getting drunk and making noise might be a nuisance but it's people coming downtown and enjoying what we invested our public money and sweat into.
I think everyone agrees. The noise nuisance is hardly the issue.
Again, nobody's calling for this.We have a surplus of residential property available and a good way to ensure it doesn't get filled would be to go ape sh*t and ban entertainment because a club or two might be facilitating a public safety concern.
Dave is not calling for a ban on clubs. He's looking at alternatives to keep the clubs in the downtown area but perhaps in less intruding locations, like The Landing. He was not speaking about the bars or restaurants on Washington.Dave said that perhaps Washington Avenue no longer needs these clubs.
Thanks for the advice but I think we already knew.I can say that from tonight and many others it would be a bedroom community if not for those spending their money in our City. Bedroom communities are not the core of regions. We shouldn't forget that.
wow today's comments on stltoday.com so tell me again its not about race ? right.
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Of course it's about race--on the stltoday.com comment section.
For them EVERYTHING is about race. I'll bet dollars to donuts someone has or will soon blame Obama for it too.
But in the real world and on this forum I do not think it's about race.
For them EVERYTHING is about race. I'll bet dollars to donuts someone has or will soon blame Obama for it too.
But in the real world and on this forum I do not think it's about race.
WISH the city would put all this effort into getting rid of the mark twain hotel downtown,I have lost count of all the murders there over the years. thanks south-side pride you are right only on stl, is there so many racist but only a hand full on urban stl.
I am not celebrating gun play or advocating for criminals or irresponsible business owners. I have been the victim of crime and members of my family have been held at gunpoint in this City.
Does Lure allow patrons to bring semiautomatic rifles into their club? How can they be held responsible if someone leaves their business, goes to a parking lot, gets a gun from who knows where, and fires it off? Yes, they are responsible for fights outside their business and should hire more security in order to prevent this, but are they supposed to patrol parking lots? This is the job of the police. They should have more downtown and in general across our City.
We have automobile noise laws against excessive stereos and I believe actually a wattage cap. Enforce it for the G-Rides, the Bosnians, Asians, and gelled kids from the County in their parents car. Club owners could mention to patrons as they exit to keep the noise down. But again I don't understand why when issues around Washington Avenue clubs came up, and the concern over car noise, people posted pictures of "obviously offensive" late 80's with large rims being driven by African Americans?
Why in this City is it only with African Americans do the actions of some small group of individuals constitute an indictment of the entire group and calls to ban something, like hip hop night, that ultimately means excluding their group participation? With Cherokee Street the liquor moratorium was instituted because of allegedly lots of biker bars and similar sh*t going down. This banned all bars, period. If drinking has to go then it should for everyone and not a specific group of people. Closing down hip hop establishments while keeping open Chad sports bars happens to be racist. I don't want any bans. Hopefully this can be resolved so everyone can enjoy our downtown.
I am not defending the owners of Lure. Obviously crime is the issue here, however the solution shouldn't be banning hip hop night because a few criminals happen to be causing problems and coincidentally they're African American. This is the same as banning violent video games because of Columbine. Not everyone who attends hip hop night are criminals. If anything, sorry, music isn't the issue here but excessive alcohol consumption and the fact that guns are so easily accessible to the general public. This falls upon the proprietor to ensure that patrons aren't stumbling drunk while also carrying weapons.
Racial fallout is a consideration. Banning an entire genre of music which an oppressed class happens to enjoy won't go over well. Some people in this City already resent the amount of public subsidy invested in downtown, for decades, while areas where they live are left to rot. Shouldn't they be able to enjoy streets which they invested in? Residents of downtown are rightly concerned with law and order. I believe it can be restored without saying we no longer cater to your preferences.
Banning clubs on Washington Avenue, moving them to the Landing, might as well be a ban entirely. The Landing should be considered an alien part of Main Street St. Charles fallen from the sky. With the highway it's not connected to downtown. If we're going to work as a City we need clubs. If residents downtown vote to ban clubs, and I wonder if that includes places like Rue 13 (again how do we define which clubs go, so far it seems only a particular category) them move them a few streets over. We have plenty of vacant property in the area. However, I hope this issue is truly about club mismanagement and not representational of gentrification. If Lure was closed and entirely new owners came along wanting to open a hip hop club downtown I am sure residents would organize against it believing them one in the same.
Does Lure allow patrons to bring semiautomatic rifles into their club? How can they be held responsible if someone leaves their business, goes to a parking lot, gets a gun from who knows where, and fires it off? Yes, they are responsible for fights outside their business and should hire more security in order to prevent this, but are they supposed to patrol parking lots? This is the job of the police. They should have more downtown and in general across our City.
We have automobile noise laws against excessive stereos and I believe actually a wattage cap. Enforce it for the G-Rides, the Bosnians, Asians, and gelled kids from the County in their parents car. Club owners could mention to patrons as they exit to keep the noise down. But again I don't understand why when issues around Washington Avenue clubs came up, and the concern over car noise, people posted pictures of "obviously offensive" late 80's with large rims being driven by African Americans?
Why in this City is it only with African Americans do the actions of some small group of individuals constitute an indictment of the entire group and calls to ban something, like hip hop night, that ultimately means excluding their group participation? With Cherokee Street the liquor moratorium was instituted because of allegedly lots of biker bars and similar sh*t going down. This banned all bars, period. If drinking has to go then it should for everyone and not a specific group of people. Closing down hip hop establishments while keeping open Chad sports bars happens to be racist. I don't want any bans. Hopefully this can be resolved so everyone can enjoy our downtown.
I am not defending the owners of Lure. Obviously crime is the issue here, however the solution shouldn't be banning hip hop night because a few criminals happen to be causing problems and coincidentally they're African American. This is the same as banning violent video games because of Columbine. Not everyone who attends hip hop night are criminals. If anything, sorry, music isn't the issue here but excessive alcohol consumption and the fact that guns are so easily accessible to the general public. This falls upon the proprietor to ensure that patrons aren't stumbling drunk while also carrying weapons.
Racial fallout is a consideration. Banning an entire genre of music which an oppressed class happens to enjoy won't go over well. Some people in this City already resent the amount of public subsidy invested in downtown, for decades, while areas where they live are left to rot. Shouldn't they be able to enjoy streets which they invested in? Residents of downtown are rightly concerned with law and order. I believe it can be restored without saying we no longer cater to your preferences.
Banning clubs on Washington Avenue, moving them to the Landing, might as well be a ban entirely. The Landing should be considered an alien part of Main Street St. Charles fallen from the sky. With the highway it's not connected to downtown. If we're going to work as a City we need clubs. If residents downtown vote to ban clubs, and I wonder if that includes places like Rue 13 (again how do we define which clubs go, so far it seems only a particular category) them move them a few streets over. We have plenty of vacant property in the area. However, I hope this issue is truly about club mismanagement and not representational of gentrification. If Lure was closed and entirely new owners came along wanting to open a hip hop club downtown I am sure residents would organize against it believing them one in the same.
For one, Lure is responsible because they serve intoxicants (legal, mind-altering substances) to its patrons which can increase aggression and reduce inhibitions. You would be naive to suggest that alcohol does not contribute to violence, right? In the case you are, dispute this: http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_p ... olence.htmDoug wrote:Does Lure allow patrons to bring semiautomatic rifles into their club? How can they be held responsible if someone leaves their business, goes to a parking lot, gets a gun from who knows where, and fires it off? Yes, they are responsible for fights outside their business and should hire more security in order to prevent this, but are they supposed to patrol parking lots? This is the job of the police. They should have more downtown and in general across our City.
Also, the excise law states that liquor licenses are subject to modification or revocation if a bar and its patrons become a detriment to the neighborhood. You may not have to like it, but Lure can be held responsible in this manner.
Doug wrote:Why in this City is it only with African Americans do the actions of some small group of individuals constitute an indictment of the entire group and calls to ban something, like hip hop night, that ultimately means excluding their group participation?
You should be ashamed by your ignorance and race-baiting, Doug. This is only an indictment on recurring, poor behavior by Club Lure and its patrons.
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Doug, I don't like to get too far off-topic on these forums but I'd to talk for a second about the guy who wore the diapers in Parliament/Funkadelic. Well, his name was Gary and he died a couple of weeks ago. I briefly met him once. He and the rest of P-Funk had more brains and talent than 1000 modern rappers making weak ringtone beats.
Watch this mind-blowing video from 1973 as an honor to Gary and have a great morning bro.
Watch this mind-blowing video from 1973 as an honor to Gary and have a great morning bro.
I just returned from Peru and I was amazed to see how clean they kept the city. Everyday, a city worker was hand sweeping the street and picking up the trash in front of the building. Further, every major intersection and every major tourist attraction had a strong police presence.
I would simply suggest to the club owners to have some additional security for any nights where the crowds are larger than typical. I think this would solve the problem. The neighborhood could also get a CID or other options to fund additional patrols (if this hasn't already happened). Those patrols could simply keep a closer eye on the activity outside the club and help with any crowd control issues.
Obviously if you live over a club, you are some disadvantages, but I think more direct police presence would help mediate the issues.
S
I would simply suggest to the club owners to have some additional security for any nights where the crowds are larger than typical. I think this would solve the problem. The neighborhood could also get a CID or other options to fund additional patrols (if this hasn't already happened). Those patrols could simply keep a closer eye on the activity outside the club and help with any crowd control issues.
Obviously if you live over a club, you are some disadvantages, but I think more direct police presence would help mediate the issues.
S
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Spice - The "clean team" keeps the downtown area very clean. They wash the sidewalks, pick up trash and clean graffiti every day. If it was not for them Downtown around these clubs and on surrounding parking lots would be a mess. I believe they are paid for thought the taxes in the Special Business District. Downtown also has the CID Guides in yellow. They are a second line of defense in DT who can be on the streets to direct tourist to their destination and also help in securing a situation until the police arrive. Downtown St Louis is one of the cleanest in the country - ask anyone who travels and spends a little time downtown. We are very lucky to have so many people that care.
Doug - Do you agree that a bar is responsible if a patron has too much to drink, gets in a car and kills someone? Why would the bar not be responsible for the gun violence that erupts from over-serving their patrons? It is not about race - it is about safety and the right to live in a safe environment free from stray bullets and knife fights. BTW- Where did you say you live? Would you invite this club into your neighborhood?
Doug - Do you agree that a bar is responsible if a patron has too much to drink, gets in a car and kills someone? Why would the bar not be responsible for the gun violence that erupts from over-serving their patrons? It is not about race - it is about safety and the right to live in a safe environment free from stray bullets and knife fights. BTW- Where did you say you live? Would you invite this club into your neighborhood?
I know my neighborhood wouldn't. I guarantee the people of Lafayette Square would put the smack down on any club that wanted to open in the area. They're tough enough on bars, already.shopgirl10 wrote:Would you invite this club into your neighborhood?
Doug,
The only hints left of racism on the thread are yours. You assume we are all banana republic khaki wearing people and your posts consistently bring that up. Not all white people are the same, be the change you want to see happen and open your eyes. You are fighting awfully hard for a business that isn’t even a minority owned business. You keep changing your stance on this issue and are the epitome of the statement when you have facts, you fight with facts, when you have nothing you pound your fist and make noise. Why does more of our tax money (more police) have to be spent for Club Lure to operate recklessly and make money with no respect for the neighborhood? Bourbon Street and the French Quarter in New Orleans is not a good example of true mixed use development with as large of a resident population as the loft district in STL, that for obvious reasons. Furthermore, the police presence in NO is mainly increased during times of celebration and is funded by the increased tourist population. Washington Ave. unfortunately does not support the same tourist crowd, and increased police would come out of our own (tax) pockets. If you would have read the post prior to yours you would have read that the club will do everything in their power to no give up their 18+ night, this is where 60% of their revenue is developed, and in one night of the week for that matter.
Washington Ave. isn’t an entertainment district, the option for packing up and leaving isn’t available for all the people. Perhaps when the residents in north city ask to stop the violence we tell them, don’t live in a high crime neighborhood? It isn’t a good solution, nor is the process of issuing a zoning variance. Washington Ave. is a good example of crime in St Louis as you say, but how else does one solve crime other than fighting it at a street level? They are fighting violence in north city after the residents asked repeatedly for something to be done. They didn’t come to the table and say “crime is everywhere, how do we solve it on a city level” or “move to Ladue if you don’t want what goes on here”? Also, the sustainability of living and working downtown is a great way to extend our planets livability for generations to come. Not everyone lives in a downtown environment to not drive home after drinking.
The idea of Washington Ave. being quiet and boring I don’t really feel is the issue here. This seems like an isolated issue and could be better addressed by a building level discussion as noted in previous posts.
“Don't be selfish and think you posses exclusive ownership over the neighborhood simply because you rent or own a loft” You are an idiot, yeah….lets take their right to vote away, remove safety, how about their civil liberties because they live in what you call a destination. There should always be a voice of the public on all levels, if it were not for that who knows if many major changes in the US would have ever taken place. The community should be able to shape the environment in which they live. If the community called for less liquor licenses they should be able to get that, regardless of how much a person likes to come to a neighborhood to party.
Final note, how hypocritical is it of you to keep referring to “Chad” bars? The only person stereotyping race on the forum is you. Quit trolling the forum, after Framer defended you I thought differently, but I now question is credibility as well.
The only hints left of racism on the thread are yours. You assume we are all banana republic khaki wearing people and your posts consistently bring that up. Not all white people are the same, be the change you want to see happen and open your eyes. You are fighting awfully hard for a business that isn’t even a minority owned business. You keep changing your stance on this issue and are the epitome of the statement when you have facts, you fight with facts, when you have nothing you pound your fist and make noise. Why does more of our tax money (more police) have to be spent for Club Lure to operate recklessly and make money with no respect for the neighborhood? Bourbon Street and the French Quarter in New Orleans is not a good example of true mixed use development with as large of a resident population as the loft district in STL, that for obvious reasons. Furthermore, the police presence in NO is mainly increased during times of celebration and is funded by the increased tourist population. Washington Ave. unfortunately does not support the same tourist crowd, and increased police would come out of our own (tax) pockets. If you would have read the post prior to yours you would have read that the club will do everything in their power to no give up their 18+ night, this is where 60% of their revenue is developed, and in one night of the week for that matter.
Washington Ave. isn’t an entertainment district, the option for packing up and leaving isn’t available for all the people. Perhaps when the residents in north city ask to stop the violence we tell them, don’t live in a high crime neighborhood? It isn’t a good solution, nor is the process of issuing a zoning variance. Washington Ave. is a good example of crime in St Louis as you say, but how else does one solve crime other than fighting it at a street level? They are fighting violence in north city after the residents asked repeatedly for something to be done. They didn’t come to the table and say “crime is everywhere, how do we solve it on a city level” or “move to Ladue if you don’t want what goes on here”? Also, the sustainability of living and working downtown is a great way to extend our planets livability for generations to come. Not everyone lives in a downtown environment to not drive home after drinking.
The idea of Washington Ave. being quiet and boring I don’t really feel is the issue here. This seems like an isolated issue and could be better addressed by a building level discussion as noted in previous posts.
“Don't be selfish and think you posses exclusive ownership over the neighborhood simply because you rent or own a loft” You are an idiot, yeah….lets take their right to vote away, remove safety, how about their civil liberties because they live in what you call a destination. There should always be a voice of the public on all levels, if it were not for that who knows if many major changes in the US would have ever taken place. The community should be able to shape the environment in which they live. If the community called for less liquor licenses they should be able to get that, regardless of how much a person likes to come to a neighborhood to party.
Final note, how hypocritical is it of you to keep referring to “Chad” bars? The only person stereotyping race on the forum is you. Quit trolling the forum, after Framer defended you I thought differently, but I now question is credibility as well.