Crime Thread

audac1ty · PostOct 10, 2014#41262014-10-10T23:08+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I have no sympathy for gun owners who don't secure their guns. Almost everyday you read about guns that were stolen from autos, etc.... take some responsibility and lock 'em up!

As for guns in the home - I completely agree, they should be locked up when not in use or while the owner is away. That is of course, no guarantee of security, YouTube is filled with examples of how to easily break into pretty much every security device short of a full-on vault, but at least its something.

As for autos, that's tougher in my book. I know many folks, myself included, who have a concealed carry license and are forced to leave their firearms in their cars against their wills. I hate leaving my firearm in my (locked) glove box, but I often have no choice.

I have no desire to turn this thread into a gun debate, and I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would say the answer is to not carry at all, so there's always that, but it seems to me that a person who is otherwise lawfully carrying a firearm and forced to leave it in their car when they otherwise wouldn't should not be blamed if their car happens to be broken into.

roger wyoming II · PostOct 10, 2014#41272014-10-10T23:19+00:00

^ You'll know better than I. but my understanding is that there are some pretty good under seat lockers for autos.... again nothing really is full-proof but enough to deter easy theft in smash-n-grabs.

audac1ty · PostOct 10, 2014#41282014-10-10T23:23+00:00

Absolutely true, responsibility is a critical part of owning a firearm and people should take reasonable precautions. I'm on the same page with you there.

dweebe · PostOct 10, 2014#41292014-10-10T23:48+00:00

Dear drug dealers and other criminals. PLEASE STOP HAVING YOUR SHOOTOUTS IN DOWNTOWN!!!!

1 dead, 1 in critical after shooting in downtown St. Louis
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 4be5e.html

MatthewHall · PostOct 11, 2014#41302014-10-11T00:04+00:00

This is happening because criminals are making the calculation that the police don't want to be charged with using excessive force and that this will given them that extra little advantage with the police. They imagine that the police will be that extra little bit cautious and give them a little extra room to operate. The police response should be exactly the opposite. It should systematically target drug gang members and arrest them on any pretext they can create. This is a psychological and political battle, not a legal one. If St. Louisers want to stop this, it can be done. Think of this as a chance for St. Louis to change its reputation.....if enough people want it to.....

onecity · PostOct 11, 2014#41312014-10-11T00:26+00:00

If it's gang activity or a violent act, there is no such thing as excessive force. Beat those ***** up. And if the criminal happens to be black, boo hoo for them. No one cares how much melanin is in their skin cells. They had a choice, and chose to behave against other humans, and their race is not a relevant data point. Although I have a great deal of sympathy for the wrongs committed against blacks, I have no sympathy for murderers and other violent criminals, and frankly to confuse the two with one another only serves to empower criminals and perpetuate racism. ***** the criminals.

TheNewSaintLouis · PostOct 11, 2014#41322014-10-11T02:19+00:00

Hey theres nothing better than living in the wild wild gateway to the west... Lets promote thug behavior & protest for justice..
Yet alone we the black people keep shooting up our own people it makes it easier for us to just blame everyone else for our problems let alone we now have all the police cornered to where we can get away with anything including murder of white people. Its not racism its just pay back for all the years you've killed our young black people then again we can kill one of our very own young black ladies who's on honor roll however her life doesn't matter cause she wasn't black enough. We the black people have no real priority cause we have the jesse jacksons the al sharptons the eric holders the antonio french's the jamilah nasheeds and the crooked pastors that will come quick to our defense to perpetuate and promote our criminal behavior. Note that other blacks that don't agree with us they just want to be white and deserve to be shot.

PostOct 11, 2014#41332014-10-11T02:47+00:00

Post siad Jim Edmonds was a bystander too todays downtown shooting...

PostOct 11, 2014#41342014-10-11T02:51+00:00

Anglophile · PostOct 11, 2014#41352014-10-11T05:28+00:00

TheNewSaintLouis wrote:Hey theres nothing better than living in the wild wild gateway to the west... Lets promote thug behavior & protest for justice..
Yet alone we the black people keep shooting up our own people it makes it easier for us to just blame everyone else for our problems let alone we now have all the police cornered to where we can get away with anything including murder of white people. Its not racism its just pay back for all the years you've killed our young black people then again we can kill one of our very own young black ladies who's on honor roll however her life doesn't matter cause she wasn't black enough. We the black people have no real priority cause we have the jesse jacksons the al sharptons the eric holders the antonio french's the jamilah nasheeds and the crooked pastors that will come quick to our defense to perpetuate and promote our criminal behavior. Note that other blacks that don't agree with us they just want to be white and deserve to be shot.

Sadly, it seems like this is what it's coming to. I know that there's a lot of room for debate about what happened in the Michael Brown situation, but what happened last night…man, I just don't know what to think anymore. It's really disheartening to see people appeasing criminal behavior like that and then attempting to destroy one of the best neighborhoods in St. Louis. I hate to say this, but the past two months have actually made me less sympathetic toward the black community here.

arch city · PostOct 11, 2014#41362014-10-11T06:02+00:00

MatthewHall wrote:This is happening because criminals are making the calculation that the police don't want to be charged with using excessive force and that this will given them that extra little advantage with the police. They imagine that the police will be that extra little bit cautious and give them a little extra room to operate. The police response should be exactly the opposite. It should systematically target drug gang members and arrest them on any pretext they can create. This is a psychological and political battle, not a legal one. If St. Louisers want to stop this, it can be done. Think of this as a chance for St. Louis to change its reputation.....if enough people want it to.....

Nope. If that were the case, the Shaw shooting wouldn't have happened. If police are being more cautious it's because they had room to dial down (or scale back). We still don't know why the off-duty Shaw-shooting officer felt the need to do a "pedestrian check" so apparently they aren't being that cautious.

Also, shootings, unfortunately, were happening in downtown LONG before Aug 9th - when Mike Brown was murdered. There was a triple homicide a few years back and shootings throughout other parts of downtown over the years - even a shooting at a trade school last year.

Police have shot and killed suspects downtown. There was an unexplained shooting of resident (or visitor) on Washington Avenue, a man killed in a garage, people shot on LaClede's Landing and on the riverfront. People were recently shot outside the Tropicana (Lumiere) Casino while waiting for a party bus. A man died.

Further, downtown violence isn't new. Downtown violence has happened for eons. Mobsters blew up cars with occupants in downtown and there have been numerous courthouse shootings, lynchings etc. etc.

St. Louis is just a violent place. Always has been.

Also, shootings, unfortunately, happen in downtowns all across America.

America is gun-happy - so you reap what you sow. Thank the NRA.

More guns. More chances for gun violence.

And by the way, there was double-shooting in downtown Kansas City in August.

Double shooting in downtown area leaves one man dead
POSTED 4:02 PM, AUGUST 3, 2014, BY MEGAN DILLARD, UPDATED AT 05:47PM, AUGUST 3, 2014
http://fox4kc.com/2014/08/03/double-sho ... -man-dead/

Shootings in downtown St. Louis aren't an anomaly. They happen is Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Kansas City - and shootings have even occurred in tidy downtown Indianapolis.

PostOct 11, 2014#41372014-10-11T06:20+00:00

TheNewSaintLouis wrote:Hey theres nothing better than living in the wild wild gateway to the west... Lets promote thug behavior & protest for justice..
Yet alone we the black people keep shooting up our own people it makes it easier for us to just blame everyone else for our problems let alone we now have all the police cornered to where we can get away with anything including murder of white people. Its not racism its just pay back for all the years you've killed our young black people then again we can kill one of our very own young black ladies who's on honor roll however her life doesn't matter cause she wasn't black enough. We the black people have no real priority cause we have the jesse jacksons the al sharptons the eric holders the antonio french's the jamilah nasheeds and the crooked pastors that will come quick to our defense to perpetuate and promote our criminal behavior. Note that other blacks that don't agree with us they just want to be white and deserve to be shot.

To me, there's been some unfortunate comments made on this thread, but this is the most stupid and racist comment I've read.

And you think somehow you are better.

You are a racist dunce and a imbecile contributor to the problem in St. Louis. You are not helping. You are fueling the fire with your DUNCITY (urban dictionary word). You are a perfect example of why St. Louis is receiving and is deserving of so much negative press. You are obliviously. You are a reason why it grows slowly and has a poor economy. Who wants to live next door to you?

STLEnginerd · PostOct 11, 2014#41382014-10-11T06:37+00:00

^Umm dude. Pretty sure he was using sarcasm.

arch city · PostOct 11, 2014#41392014-10-11T06:46+00:00

Anglophile wrote:but what happened last night…man, I just don't know what to think anymore. It's really disheartening to see people appeasing criminal behavior like that and then attempting to destroy one of the best neighborhoods in St. Louis. I hate to say this, but the past two months have actually made me less sympathetic toward the black community here.

Did you see all of the other NON-BLACK marchers/protesters last night and Thursday night in Shaw, at the symphony, in Ferguson (including Jack Dorsey), Clayton, under the Gateway Arch, Kiener Plaza, City Hall etc. etc.

I want to understand where you are coming from, but can't. You are coming from a racist place if you are too blind to see that protests have been colorful (Black, white, Asian, Latino, Arab, etc.). You may not feel sympathy toward the black community, but have sympathy for you.

Further, no one is appeasing criminal behavior. It's about DISTRUST of the police. Your trust in the police may be high, but there are those in the black community whose trust in the police is at an all-time low. They lie. They have set people up for crimes they didn't commit. They have shot people complying with their orders and lied on their reports. They have planted guns and weapons on people. People have been falsely imprisoned. Police have beaten FALSE confessions out people. People have been put on death row behind police and prosecutorial misconduct. Police have beaten people to death, hanged people in jail cells, intimidated and harassed whistle-blowers against them, etc. etc. etc. This is evident all around the country.

In St. Louis, a young man RECORDED an officer trying to set up an innocent person. In Ferguson, police beat and bloodied an innocent man then sued him for getting blood on their uniforms. WICKED, hateful sh*t.

If the police were more trustworthy, it might have been believable that Myers fired at the officer. But they lie, abuse and have been known to plant weapons on people and decedents. The police have broken the community's trust, which is why people don't "snitch". They don't trust the police.

Look at how St. Louis County PD and Ferguson PD treated the peaceful protesters in Ferguson. Then tried to justify why they acted the way they did.

I was not in Shaw to see what the deceased allegedly did, but I certainly understand why there's distrust.

PostOct 11, 2014#41402014-10-11T06:53+00:00

STLEnginerd wrote:^Umm dude. Pretty sure he was using sarcasm.

Well, that wasn't or isn't immediately clear to me.

PostOct 11, 2014#41412014-10-11T07:33+00:00

leeharveyawesome wrote:The cops are in a no-win situation in the black community. If they don't solve the crime issues in North St. Louis it's because they don't care about the residents of North St. Louis and if they do their jobs (sometimes while getting shot at by very serious criminals) and something really bad happens then they are the enemy.

Raise up off N. St. Louis. You are coding. Crime happens all over the city including downtown and south st. Louis. Ummm. Vonderrit Myers lived in South St. Louis.

The victims of the first downtown shooting lived in South St. Louis.

Even with the second shooting in downtown Friday, one of those guys was from Glasgow Village in St. Louis County. No word on where the other guy(s) were from. Possibly East St. Louis.

It could be a win-win, if the cops were more trustworthy.

threeonefour wrote:Exactly. Crime is a serious issue in this city, and I fear that the events of the last two days it will be even more difficult to fight it. That is only the beginning of what this activity is going to cost this city, I am afraid...

I agree crime is serious, but seriously, I really think you are being a bit extreme.

Police need to be able to police PROFESSIONALLY.

They don't need to frame and harass people. They don't need to shoot first then ask questions later UNLESS they actually do have a gun pointed at them. How many people have they killed that were UNARMED. How many people have been victims of police abuse/brutality and excessive force?

Black folks are disproportionately the victims of violent crime in St. Louis so therefore black people DO want crime addressed by police. The issue is how the police POLICE. They are not trustworthy.

There has to be trust built up between the community and police. The police MUST understand that if they want respect from the community, they have to demonstrate INTEGRITY and respect too. It goes both ways.

You can't frame people, shoot people dead on the streets then say "you feared for your life" because you were trigger-happy, shoot unarmed people in the back and head who are running away, plant weapons on people, lie on police reports, illegally tow people's cars in the middle of the night who are not in violation of an ordinance so you can get kickbacks, beat and taze people who did nothing but ask why were they being stopped or arrested, "pedestrian check" and "stop and frisk" without probable cause other than being black or brown, strong-elbow handcuffed detainees, call people niggers, animals and all kinds of vile names etc. etc. etc. then expect people to perceive you "officer-friendly".

That's bullsh*t.

If St. Louis Police had shown consistent INTEGRITY, maybe it would be believable that Myers shot at the police officer. As it stands now, people don't know how true the story is. St. Louis Police are as corrupt as New Orleans police.

Jennifer Joyce and the DOJ will be conducting a parallel investigation.

This is how you build (or at least try to) build community trust in police. And they need to weed out the bad apples from the KKK and Aryans.

bigmclargehuge · PostOct 11, 2014#41422014-10-11T13:43+00:00

arch city wrote:This is how you build (or at least try to) build community trust in police. And they need to weed out the bad apples from the KKK and Aryans.

You berate people, call people stupid and racist and you close with a statement like that? Might want to look in the mirror when calling out people

wustl_eng · PostOct 11, 2014#41432014-10-11T15:10+00:00

Until police start holding themselves accountable and stop protecting their own at all costs even when there's clear wrongdoing, then why should people trust them? Until this country wakes up and realizes the so-called "War on Drugs" really boils down to harassing and incarcerating poor people, branding them felons and dooming them to a cycle of recidivism, on a scale unmatched anywhere in the world, why should people trust them? Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the latest shooting, but rather the general history of law enforcement doing such things.

roger wyoming II · PostOct 11, 2014#41442014-10-11T15:25+00:00

^^ Everyone's emotions are high and I can understand why arch city was frustrated with some of the earlier comments and gave his piece.... its hard to know precisely people's feelings/intentions with internet posts and lack of sarcasm tags. etc. but seeing some of the comments last night disturbed me; I thought about responding but let them slide as I'm trying to remain positive.

MatthewHall · PostOct 11, 2014#41452014-10-11T16:29+00:00

I have no idea what "Raise up off N. St. Louis. You are coding" means. Maybe the person who wrote this could translate. Any attempt to "hold police accountable" will not include unsubstantiated accusations of police "framing" people. If you seriously think that the police are lying about Myers have a gun or shooting at a police officer, you are the problem, not the solution.

arch city · PostOct 11, 2014#41462014-10-11T16:33+00:00

bigmclargehuge wrote:You berate people, call people stupid and racist and you close with a statement like that? Might want to look in the mirror when calling out people

Ummm. I am not a LEO.

Further, in my PROFESSIONAL CAPACITIES - because I do work (ha ha) - I don't use profane language or name call clients and consumers - at least not to their face.

I is a professional.

A paid professional with INTEGRITY.

And there is NO secret - NONE - that members of the KKK and Aryans are on urban police forces all across this country. That's not name calling, that is truth.

Hell, remember coo-coo bird Dan Page with the St. Louis County Police Department with his racist, anti-female and anti-gay rants? If not, read up on him. He is a f****n' nut.

Now....I don't feel all white police officers are KKK or Aryans - but many are. Yet, there are many white officers I'd prefer to deal with than black ones.

I don't discriminate. A coo coo bird cop is a coo coo bird cop.

PostOct 11, 2014#41472014-10-11T16:56+00:00

wustl_eng wrote:Until police start holding themselves accountable and stop protecting their own at all costs even when there's clear wrongdoing, then why should people trust them? Until this country wakes up and realizes the so-called "War on Drugs" really boils down to harassing and incarcerating poor people, branding them felons and dooming them to a cycle of recidivism, on a scale unmatched anywhere in the world, why should people trust them? Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the latest shooting, but rather the general history of law enforcement doing such things.

I agree 1000%. But not only that, the judicial system must hold police accountable as well. While I understand that our judicial system needs police officers, because they are the front line, prosecutor's and DA's must get out of bed with the bad apples.

Period.

Identify them and prosecute them for misconduct. No slaps on the hand or resigning voluntarily. And depending on the severity of their misconduct BARRED for life from policing. Again, once the community sees action against the bad apples - and the good ones are put on notice - I think real crime fighting will take place.

PostOct 11, 2014#41482014-10-11T17:31+00:00

MatthewHall wrote:Any attempt to "hold police accountable" will not include unsubstantiated accusations of police "framing" people. If you seriously think that the police are lying about Myers have a gun or shooting at a police officer, you are the problem, not the solution.

I don't know whether Myers shot at the officer or not 'cause truthfully neither you nor I were there. I trust that the DOJ and Jennifer Joyce will get to the bottom of things.

But until then, I do know that St. Louis police does have a long history of planting guns on citizens as well as "free casing" citizens. The stories are all over the Internet. Do some research. And I still ask, what made this OFF-DUTY officer do a "pedestrian check" interaction with these young men? We still don't have that answer. But we have another dead body and the police' side of the story.

Nonetheless, I won't suggest that YOU "are the problem" because your experiences have been different. Apparently, you can believe the cops because the police obviously haven't corrupted your perspective of them.

I have been harassed, called a racial slur, stopped DWB, witnessed an uncle's abuse by SLPD for simply asking about the nature of his stop etc. I know stories of police corruption therefore I am not blind to the possibility of police misconduct.

So no, I don't always believe the police. And I WILL NOT apologize for that NOR can you make me feel regret because I feel the way I do.

ttricamo · PostOct 11, 2014#41492014-10-11T18:40+00:00

I can absolutely understand the mistrust of the police, arch city. You'll not here me trying to argue with you on those points.

What is your position on the shooting of the black people in front of the justice building? And what is your stance or rampant black on black crime in general?

I'm not asking in attempt to deflect the behavior of bad police. I'm asking the question assuming both situations are mutually exclusive.

I would welcome an African Americans position on black on black crime.

bigmclargehuge · PostOct 11, 2014#41502014-10-11T18:53+00:00

^Thats a good point/question.

They released pictures of the red car involved in the downtown shooting/murder tuesday. You know people saw that and thought "Sh!t thats daves car, or my neighbors car, etc". Yet no leads. Isn't the no snitching mentality a much bigger problem. I know if my friend committed a murder, beat someone , etc i sure as hell would turn him in. How many criminals is that leaving on the streets? Maybe this leads to a perpetual cycle of mistrust between all sides?

Any number of us on this forum who work downtown could have been hit with stay bullet by last weeks by the two shootings. And i agree there could be some correlation that criminals have the slightest of upper hand now because the cops are more cautious, etc.

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