urbanSTL

MatthewHall wrote:This is all a sign of real changes in St. Louis. I'm surprised that more of you don't see it. But, yes, part of this is very much the reconcentration of poverty in new places as new investment and the departure of poor blacks makes way for all the many new projects that have and are happening along the central corridor. The poor are being pushed away from central St. Louis and they know it. They know they can't stop it, but they sure as hell can vent sanctimoniously and take their chances at making a buck through various criminal activities.

Except that your story is not based in reality at all.

roger wyoming II wrote:^ Too bad there isn't a block button.

Add him to your foes list.

http://urbanstl.com/forum/memberlist.ph ... ile&u=9637
Click Add to Foes.

The only one of those links that has any relevance to the theory you came up with provides the direct evidence that your theory is wrong. Swanstrom's extensive research on neighborhood trends in St. Louis shows that Black people are not being pushed out of the central corridor at this point.

ttricamo wrote:And what is your stance or rampant black on black crime in general?

ttricamo wrote:I would welcome an African Americans position on black on black crime.

We love BOB crime. What would we do without it?[/quote]
I don't prefer crime in general...but to be honest, I think much too much is made on black on black crime as opposed to crime in different racial groups anyway. As segregated as St. Louis and other inner cities are, it'd make sense that intra-race cime would be predominant. If a white person in St. Charles wanted to commit a burglary...he's sure not gonna drive all the way from St. Charles to North City to do it, he's most likely going to burglarize his neighbor who is most likely white and so on and so forth.

I hate the crime, personally...to be honest, and I think the key to REALLY turning this city around is getting rid of the crime stigma nationwide and turning around the North and West sides of St. Louis (above Delmar) its a HUGE area of the city that is really struggling, but due to crime its gonna be tough to get a ton of redevelopment in the area which stinks because its SUCH a massive area.

I think a lot of Blacks however, know...if you're not involved in that lifestyle...its relatively safe. I've lived in Walnut Park, Baden, Fountain Park, University City and now NoCo and I've never feared for my safety in any of these areas. I'm not a criminal, a lot of the shootings are perpetrated against other criminals. Which still isn't good...but I can drive down Goodfellow and my heart isn't racing trying to get out of dodge.

I think also, there's another element that due to segregation is...I think a lot of blacks may see someone who commits a crime as a 3-D person as opposed to JUST a "thug". When things were segregated, the drug dealer could live next to a doctor, etc, etc. Its even like that to an extent now...there are some highly successful people out in NoCo...and some that are struggling to make ends meet. I had a young kid ask me if I wanted to buy some weed coming out of my apartment (not the best thing in the world obviously) but you get the picture. Blacks of varying economic levels are more likely to live next to each other than any race I believe. Like, I saw the Mike Brown thing in Powell Symphony Hall and there was a guy who said "oh he was just a thug"...now, this white guy may not know someone who's committed a crime or been to jail...maybe he grew up in West County or something like that, so I think its much more easy for him to write someone off as "just a thug" than a black person that grew up in a neighborhood that saw some people make it...some people fall into the wrong things. Yes, these are choices that people make but I think as a Black person its much harder for me to say the guy I grew up down the street from is "JUST a thug"...he's a person too. Sometimes they ARE able to turn it around before it's too late. These guys don't commit crimes 24-7/365...they aren't machines lol. There's a different human element. People don't spend time in these neighborhoods, they don't know the people...probably never even driven through them to get an understanding.

^ Great post. Especially agree about branding people "thugs"... like Richard Sherman said, it's often a coded way of calling someone another word you can't use (publicly) anymore.

Black people aren't being pushed out of the central corridor because they're already gone. There aren't any left to push out. McKee's project, Cortex, and anything new around Midtown are happening on empty land.

downtown2007 wrote:As the people protest about excessive policing. 3 people shot in the Gate district. Come on people.

Any more details or a news story link?

MatthewHall wrote:Black people aren't being pushed out of the central corridor because they're already gone. There aren't any left to push out. McKee's project, Cortex, and anything new around Midtown are happening on empty land.

The idea that the Northside Regeneration project is not risking displacing residents of Northside neighborhoods within the area of the project is not an idea that is based in reality. Yes there are plenty of forgotten blocks but there are also plenty of communities within other blocks that the project encompasses.

quincunx wrote:

downtown2007 wrote:As the people protest about excessive policing. 3 people shot in the Gate district. Come on people.

Any more details or a news story link?

I believe this is the story he was referencing. Two woman shot at, one pregnant. The third woman only had bullet come through her window.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/crime/20 ... /17172237/

Trap8648 wrote:

ttricamo wrote:And what is your stance or rampant black on black crime in general?

ttricamo wrote:I would welcome an African Americans position on black on black crime.

We love BOB crime. What would we do without it?

I don't prefer crime in general...but to be honest, I think much too much is made on black on black crime as opposed to crime in different racial groups anyway. As segregated as St. Louis and other inner cities are, it'd make sense that intra-race cime would be predominant. If a white person in St. Charles wanted to commit a burglary...he's sure not gonna drive all the way from St. Charles to North City to do it, he's most likely going to burglarize his neighbor who is most likely white and so on and so forth.

I hate the crime, personally...to be honest, and I think the key to REALLY turning this city around is getting rid of the crime stigma nationwide and turning around the North and West sides of St. Louis (above Delmar) its a HUGE area of the city that is really struggling, but due to crime its gonna be tough to get a ton of redevelopment in the area which stinks because its SUCH a massive area.

I think a lot of Blacks however, know...if you're not involved in that lifestyle...its relatively safe. I've lived in Walnut Park, Baden, Fountain Park, University City and now NoCo and I've never feared for my safety in any of these areas. I'm not a criminal, a lot of the shootings are perpetrated against other criminals. Which still isn't good...but I can drive down Goodfellow and my heart isn't racing trying to get out of dodge.

I think also, there's another element that due to segregation is...I think a lot of blacks may see someone who commits a crime as a 3-D person as opposed to JUST a "thug". When things were segregated, the drug dealer could live next to a doctor, etc, etc. Its even like that to an extent now...there are some highly successful people out in NoCo...and some that are struggling to make ends meet. I had a young kid ask me if I wanted to buy some weed coming out of my apartment (not the best thing in the world obviously) but you get the picture. Blacks of varying economic levels are more likely to live next to each other than any race I believe. Like, I saw the Mike Brown thing in Powell Symphony Hall and there was a guy who said "oh he was just a thug"...now, this white guy may not know someone who's committed a crime or been to jail...maybe he grew up in West County or something like that, so I think its much more easy for him to write someone off as "just a thug" than a black person that grew up in a neighborhood that saw some people make it...some people fall into the wrong things. Yes, these are choices that people make but I think as a Black person its much harder for me to say the guy I grew up down the street from is "JUST a thug"...he's a person too. Sometimes they ARE able to turn it around before it's too late. These guys don't commit crimes 24-7/365...they aren't machines lol. There's a different human element. People don't spend time in these neighborhoods, they don't know the people...probably never even driven through them to get an understanding.

I think I got it. Labeling something as "BoB crime" at least two the two black guys on this forum is frivolous. It's just crime. I can get on board with that. I was genuinely asking the question.

How do you feel about other blacks pointing to a need for blacks that commit crimes to "take responsibility" for themselves or "pull up their pants?" Does that actually hurt the cause, so to speak? Seems as though the more one hides behind the idea of "BoB crime" the more one actually misses the point?

Again, these are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely asking people on this forum questions, albeit uncomfortably, because I'd like to gain and respect your perspective.

There was several thousand dollars worth of damage done to a gay bar in the Grove last night.

ttricamo wrote:
I think I got it. Labeling something as "BoB crime" at least two the two black guys on this forum is frivolous. It's just crime. I can get on board with that. I was genuinely asking the question.

How do you feel about other blacks pointing to a need for blacks that commit crimes to "take responsibility" for themselves or "pull up their pants?" Does that actually hurt the cause, so to speak? Seems as though the more one hides behind the idea of "BoB crime" the more one actually misses the point?

Again, these are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely asking people on this forum questions, albeit uncomfortably, because I'd like to gain and respect your perspective.

These are good, fair questions to ask in my opinion. I, too, want to gain some perspective here.

leeharveyawesome wrote:There was several thousand dollars worth of damage done to a gay bar in the Grove last night.

Uh-oh. I thought things were supposed to be peaceful? On the balance, by every indication I saw at least, things were pretty calm. However, the more things like this happen, the more these actions undermine the legitimate concerns of protesters.

"foes list"?! This is the kind of us and them thinking that causes St. Louis' problems.

leeharveyawesome wrote:There was several thousand dollars worth of damage done to a gay bar in the Grove last night.

Which bar?

roger wyoming II wrote: Thanks... didn't know that even existed; now probably 1/2 of folks here will foe me!

roger, you're one of the few voices of reason on this forum that keep me reading, particularly given recent events.

roger wyoming II wrote: ...but the rest of his stuff is pretty painful to read.

i can't deal with matimal/MathewHall anymore. for me, his occasional interesting ideas are overshadowed by his lack of intellectual humility.

sorry, matimal. just MHO.

Here's what's happened to the racial composition of Shaw from 2000 to 2010:
White alone: 3,524(2010), 3,136(2000), making a 12.37% increase.
Black or African American alone: 2,853 (2010), 4,657 (2000), making -38.74% decrease.
from: http://stlcin.missouri.org/census/cen_city_comp.cfm

Here's what's happened to the racial composition of St. Louis city from 2000 to 2010:
White alone: 140,267 152,666 -12,399 -8.12%
Black or African American alone: 157,160 178,266 -21,106 -11.84%
from: http://stlcin.missouri.org/census/neigh_comp.cfm

These trends have continued since 2010. Central St. Louis is becoming whiter and north County is becoming blacker. This is why Ferguson and Shaw happened. St. Louis is experiencing disorder BECAUSE the old pattern of urban poor blacks and suburban whites is shifting. Whites are protesting in Shaw because they want to defend the economic interests they've established in recent years. and blacks in Ferguson protested because they want to establish the economic interests they've established there in recent years. This is all happening because the old game of dumping the poor and their problems in the city isn't working anymore and those who were deeply invested in that old game are fighting the changes. In 20 years, central St. Louis will be mostly white professionals.

If Shaw and the Central Corridor are shifting a little demographically I don't see the problem. Isn't it simply becoming more diverse? What's wrong with a little diversity?

This is a very touchy subject however i completely feel after nearly a century of neglect this is whats going to happen. Blacks feel very disrespected not only by police but by people in general. I'm not sure how folks who live in areas that haven't seen any sort of disinvestment would deal with living in a area with barely any jobs let alone investment. I honestly believe that the regional leadership here is beyond dismal and our local companies should be shamed for not even considering any areas of distress a chance of jobs. It shouldn't take for Ferguson for Emerson or Centene to realize that those areas of in need however my biggest gripe about it all is while all of this is going on that North St.Louis continues to get ignored. When are our leaders going to wake up and turn on the light and say you know what the best thing to do is locate jobs in North St.Louis even if we have to go without a hand out or have to build from scratch. Having jobs alone in North St.Louis would dramatically drop crime instantly will also help provide financial stability to local schools and neighborhoods that alone would be a boon not only to North St.Louis but all of St.Louis. Talking about race isn't going to solve St.Louis's black eye what's going to address the problem is jobs, better leadership, better community involvement, better policing. These police officers admitting do need to be retrained on how to treat civilians of all cultures of life including if they committed a crime shooting at them will just add salt to the wound and create the very same problems that we are dealing with today but citizens do need to realize if you break the law you'll face the ending result that could presumably end your life. All of its not worth it life is such a treasure

I'm not describing my views, but the views of the protestors. I argue that the protestors are responding to these changing demographics.