That's a stupid thing to protest. Everyone has the same right to live anywhere they want in the cityMatthewHall wrote:I'm not describing my views, but the views of the protestors. I argue that the protestors are responding to these changing demographics.
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I don't know if MHall is right about the reason for the protests, but it stands to reason that as the black population proportion declines relative to the white pop in STL and the remaining blacks have less influence - that those blacks who see race as an important part of their identity could be seeing alarm bells of some sort. I think the influence of this is probably pretty minor, especially when I see the diversity of protesters on the news - a lot of young white protestors out there that seem to grasp how ***** up the region really is. It's good to see this all outgrowing the Brown shooting - which was really nothing but a catalyst (and a little dubious given Brown's actions) - and into an overall indictment of the local caste system.
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I live in Webster. I quickly got in my car and drove to watch the protesters when they came to Webster, which is a diverse peaceful community...I realize that they were there because Stenger was holding a fund raiser and McCaskill was there....
I had a great give-and-take with these protesters...but I was surprised by their lack of knowledge of what they were protesting. a few I talked to didn't even realize that Stenger is a Democrat.....
I had a great give-and-take with these protesters...but I was surprised by their lack of knowledge of what they were protesting. a few I talked to didn't even realize that Stenger is a Democrat.....
Stenger is a Democrat yes, but he's completely been mum on the Mike Brown issue and he was backed by Bob McCullough. Both of which are black eyes for him in the Black community right now. As the Democratic elect, it would've been nice to hear something from him on the matter rather than, "Charlie Dooley could've/shoul've done this to..."sirshankalot wrote:I live in Webster. I quickly got in my car and drove to watch the protesters when they came to Webster, which is a diverse peaceful community...I realize that they were there because Stenger was holding a fund raiser and McCaskill was there....
I had a great give-and-take with these protesters...but I was surprised by their lack of knowledge of what they were protesting. a few I talked to didn't even realize that Stenger is a Democrat.....
He's also been pretty mum on the city-county merger as well. Which if that could happen and possibly some of these small speed trap communities can be dissolved, that might help in the form of less aggressive policing from communities like Charlack, Calverton Park, etc. that depend on revenue from speeding tickets. He's been absent on things thast really matter as of late and that's just not good enough. I think he assumes that since he's the democratic candidate he doesn't have to earn our vote...but he hasn't done anything as of yet for us to say, "Yea, he's gonna be good" He doesn't have a record of accomplishment. I won't be voting for him either. I doubt I vote for Stream, but Stenger won't get MY vote. He may win anyway...but still...
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"I think he assumes that since he's the democratic candidate he doesn't have to earn our vote...but he hasn't done anything as of yet for us to say, "Yea, he's gonna be good" He doesn't have a record of accomplishment"
Who is "us"?
Who is "us"?
The pulling up your pants thing is pretty lame to me to be honest. Sagging pants is so far down the list of problems in our community that I'm sick of hearing it. They're kids for the most part and they're gonna dress how they want. May not like HOW they dress...but they're not dressing for the approal of 30-40 year olds. They're doing it for themselves and each other. I used to sag my pants...but I'm 30 now and have grown out of it. Plus, we wore baggier clothing in the late 90's, but its a non-issue to me.ttricamo wrote:Trap8648 wrote:ttricamo wrote:And what is your stance or rampant black on black crime in general?We love BOB crime. What would we do without it?ttricamo wrote:I would welcome an African Americans position on black on black crime.I think I got it. Labeling something as "BoB crime" at least two the two black guys on this forum is frivolous. It's just crime. I can get on board with that. I was genuinely asking the question.I don't prefer crime in general...but to be honest, I think much too much is made on black on black crime as opposed to crime in different racial groups anyway. As segregated as St. Louis and other inner cities are, it'd make sense that intra-race cime would be predominant. If a white person in St. Charles wanted to commit a burglary...he's sure not gonna drive all the way from St. Charles to North City to do it, he's most likely going to burglarize his neighbor who is most likely white and so on and so forth.
I hate the crime, personally...to be honest, and I think the key to REALLY turning this city around is getting rid of the crime stigma nationwide and turning around the North and West sides of St. Louis (above Delmar) its a HUGE area of the city that is really struggling, but due to crime its gonna be tough to get a ton of redevelopment in the area which stinks because its SUCH a massive area.
I think a lot of Blacks however, know...if you're not involved in that lifestyle...its relatively safe. I've lived in Walnut Park, Baden, Fountain Park, University City and now NoCo and I've never feared for my safety in any of these areas. I'm not a criminal, a lot of the shootings are perpetrated against other criminals. Which still isn't good...but I can drive down Goodfellow and my heart isn't racing trying to get out of dodge.
I think also, there's another element that due to segregation is...I think a lot of blacks may see someone who commits a crime as a 3-D person as opposed to JUST a "thug". When things were segregated, the drug dealer could live next to a doctor, etc, etc. Its even like that to an extent now...there are some highly successful people out in NoCo...and some that are struggling to make ends meet. I had a young kid ask me if I wanted to buy some weed coming out of my apartment (not the best thing in the world obviously) but you get the picture. Blacks of varying economic levels are more likely to live next to each other than any race I believe. Like, I saw the Mike Brown thing in Powell Symphony Hall and there was a guy who said "oh he was just a thug"...now, this white guy may not know someone who's committed a crime or been to jail...maybe he grew up in West County or something like that, so I think its much more easy for him to write someone off as "just a thug" than a black person that grew up in a neighborhood that saw some people make it...some people fall into the wrong things. Yes, these are choices that people make but I think as a Black person its much harder for me to say the guy I grew up down the street from is "JUST a thug"...he's a person too. Sometimes they ARE able to turn it around before it's too late. These guys don't commit crimes 24-7/365...they aren't machines lol. There's a different human element. People don't spend time in these neighborhoods, they don't know the people...probably never even driven through them to get an understanding.
How do you feel about other blacks pointing to a need for blacks that commit crimes to "take responsibility" for themselves or "pull up their pants?" Does that actually hurt the cause, so to speak? Seems as though the more one hides behind the idea of "BoB crime" the more one actually misses the point?
Again, these are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely asking people on this forum questions, albeit uncomfortably, because I'd like to gain and respect your perspective.
I think if more people in the drug trade realized how much money they AREN'T making...they wouldn't be as apt to join in it. The myth that you can stand on the corner and go home with $3,000 your first night selling crack is just so far from the truth. Anyone born after the crack boom in the 80's is chasing after a market that has already boomed and busted. Its like trying to sell real estate these days. The days of the drug kingpin are over. There'll never be guys that made that kind if money again selling drugs. There are some that are indeed very "successful" but the vast majority aren't. The ones that I talk to take responsibility to be honest...there IS a lure to the lifestyle and they fell for it hook, line and sinker. But the belief that, one has no choice BUT to sell drugs...its a farce.
I guess I'm down the middle where its, "They don't know any better"...and the matter of personal choice. I fell the ol' "pull yourself up by the bootstraps...my grandfather came here 75 years ago" spiel I hear from a lot of folks is kinda disrespectful (this is a different America), BUT there ARE personal choices that go along with ending up in certain situations.
I wasn't speaking for a group of people...I should've say me there.sirshankalot wrote:"I think he assumes that since he's the democratic candidate he doesn't have to earn our vote...but he hasn't done anything as of yet for us to say, "Yea, he's gonna be good" He doesn't have a record of accomplishment"
Who is "us"?
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3 more homicides.... late night incident in O'Fallon Park neighborhood and two this morning in a drug deal in O'Fallon Park itself.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 9c384.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 9c384.html
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Not in metro where racial composition virtually dictates property values and levels of crime.dbInSouthCity wrote:That's a stupid thing to protest. Everyone has the same right to live anywhere they want in the cityMatthewHall wrote:I'm not describing my views, but the views of the protestors. I argue that the protestors are responding to these changing demographics.
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So the victim in the Shaw shooting was on video showing a gun which happens to be the same one recovered at the shooting. Surprise Surprise.
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^ Also forensic detail released show powder on hands and cloths
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 9f135.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 9f135.html
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^ ^^ Well, there goes the argument that the police planted a gun. I'm also still waiting for State Senator Nasheed to own up to her incendiary statements about the officer shooting Myers from behind and engaging in racial profiling.
Were there reasons people might have felt those things were true? Yes. Did Nasheed have a clue? No. Her statements were incendiary in my opinion and only fanned the flames in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
Were there reasons people might have felt those things were true? Yes. Did Nasheed have a clue? No. Her statements were incendiary in my opinion and only fanned the flames in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
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Vonderitt Myers was a thug. The streets of STL are safer. And all the reactionary protesters..well, don't know what to say about them...Kudos to Mr. Roorda for speaking the truth. As for Sen Nasheed and her 60 IQ, I feel for the people who keep voting her in...She's a fool.
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In the picture in the StLtoday article he clearly has 3 sandwiches on his lap.
I'm not gonna defend Vonderrit Myers (though it's sad nonetheless, calling him a thug whose death makes STL safer is part of the problem regarding the region/nation's attitudes toward young black men), but having Jeff Roorda present this evidence is just not a good idea. Even if he's speaking the absolute truth, he fundamentally can't be trusted by the protestors/people skeptical of the story as his reputation's already been poisoned. You cannot have a guy who has a history of making a false report as a police officer, a guy who was supervising/started the Darren Wilson fundraiser, be the one defending them. It's absurd and only breeds more distrust and enmity.
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I think with his trial coming up on the felony possession he knew his life was essentially over if he got caught with a stolen gun so he made a decision that indeed ended his life. I'm not sure if it was posted before on here or not, but the incident he was charged for was when police attempted to stop a car playing loud music on Wash Ave... the driver then fled and he threw out his gun when they all got out and tried to run. Apparently he had some warrants for other stuff at the time but not sure of what kind (traffic? criminal?) Anyway, no mention of anything violent in his past record but regardless kids got to say no to them guns cause one way or another it will catch up to you.sirshankalot wrote:Vonderitt Myers was a thug. The streets of STL are safer.
He chose his fate.calling him a thug whose death makes STL safer is part of the problem regarding the region/nation's attitudes toward young black men
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Many central St. Louis neighborhoods have had decreases in black population of 30 or 40 percent in the last decade and this pattern is continuing. Blacks are angry about being pushed around by the police in Ferguson and by the thousands of white professional class people moving into Shaw, Tower Grove, Downtown, and other neighborhoods.
This website shows all of this. http://stlcin.missouri.org/census/neighborhood.cfm
This website shows all of this. http://stlcin.missouri.org/census/neighborhood.cfm
(to onecity) Fair. He could've killed someone, and when you engage in that kind of gunplay you get what you give. But I still don't think we should be celebrating his death or treating it as some public service. He was a person too.
Shaw is still 41% black as of 2010, or more than 2x the metro average, so it's pretty hard to say anyone is being pushed out, when in fact it is normalizing.Many central St. Louis neighborhoods have had decreases in black population of 30 or 40 percent in the last decade and this pattern is continuing. Blacks are angry about being pushed around by the police in Ferguson and by the thousands of white professional class people moving into Shaw, Tower Grove, Downtown, and other neighborhoods.
I think there is a chance people are being pushed out of Shaw through gentrification over the last 10-15 years. I have no numbers to back this up, but only through my observations of being a past resident of Shaw and a visitor from time to time in more recent years. I would bet the number of homeowners (who I imagine are largely white) has increased a good amount in this time frame and the number of renters (who I bet would statistically be a decent percentage of African-Americans) has decreased. I would imagine property values have increased over this time frame, with once rental units converting to homes for sale.onecity wrote:Shaw is still 41% black as of 2010, or more than 2x the metro average, so it's pretty hard to say anyone is being pushed out, when in fact it is normalizing.Many central St. Louis neighborhoods have had decreases in black population of 30 or 40 percent in the last decade and this pattern is continuing. Blacks are angry about being pushed around by the police in Ferguson and by the thousands of white professional class people moving into Shaw, Tower Grove, Downtown, and other neighborhoods.
If you can no longer afford to rent in a neighborhood you consider your home/community and can therefore no longer afford to live there you are being pushed out.
Open to the fact that my anecdotal evidence might be wrong. Would be happy for someone to prove me right/wrong with real stats.
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I don't celebrate Myers death. But he made the choice to fire the gun and brought it on himself.
He should have been in prison for his earlier gun charge. He'd be alive now.
The Michael Brown situation is much murkier IMO.
It appears as though the protests shifted from the inexplicable anger towards the Shaw officer for defending themselves to broader issues of equality and police/community relations.
I for one want to welcome the out of town protesters to move to St. Louis if they really want to make a difference. Mentor at risk children and join community groups that foster a bond between police and neighborhood residents.
I may not agree with why you chose to come here and protest, but as long as you are non violent and want to positively affect the community you are welcome here.
He should have been in prison for his earlier gun charge. He'd be alive now.
The Michael Brown situation is much murkier IMO.
It appears as though the protests shifted from the inexplicable anger towards the Shaw officer for defending themselves to broader issues of equality and police/community relations.
I for one want to welcome the out of town protesters to move to St. Louis if they really want to make a difference. Mentor at risk children and join community groups that foster a bond between police and neighborhood residents.
I may not agree with why you chose to come here and protest, but as long as you are non violent and want to positively affect the community you are welcome here.
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I think protestors just didn't/don't trust/believe the police and were just as likely believe there was a plant.... video from the market and comments from the manager as well as changes in the official account didn't help. Concerns about broader policing such as racial profiling are also there but the basic lack of trust is the main issue from what I see.southsidepride wrote: It appears as though the protests shifted from the inexplicable anger towards the Shaw officer for defending themselves to broader issues of equality and police/community relations....
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And in 2000 Shaw was 57% black. We can be sure that whites control much more than 59% of the real estate value and overall wealth in Shaw, as well. It's the change in the balance of wealth and power that has caused these divisions. Police shootings happen all over North St. Louis city, but protests don't. These demographic changes explain why.onecity wrote:Shaw is still 41% black as of 2010, or more than 2x the metro average, so it's pretty hard to say anyone is being pushed out, when in fact it is normalizing.Many central St. Louis neighborhoods have had decreases in black population of 30 or 40 percent in the last decade and this pattern is continuing. Blacks are angry about being pushed around by the police in Ferguson and by the thousands of white professional class people moving into Shaw, Tower Grove, Downtown, and other neighborhoods.
You DO have numbers to show gentrification in St. Louis. They're at http://dynamic.stlouis-mo.gov/census/neigh_comp.cfm.