^^ Yet you're the one bringing up how awful those blacks were in North City to those idyllic white people. I get it. And you don't have to be an academic to understand how f'd up the Saint Louis power structure was wrt to blacks as they built this idyll... we're continuing to pay the price.
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***** get off the "idyllic" thing. People just waxed nostalgic about the past. The city was intact, it worked, the built environment was beautiful, there were smoking chimneys and gas lamp posts and balconies and kids in the street and streetcars and sidewalks and ice trucks and corner stores and jobs and it was not crime ridden. It's just nostalgia from old man for something that's gone. No more no less. One guy said it was "idyllic". He never said anyone destroyed it and neither did I.roger wyoming II wrote:^^ Yet you're the one bringing up how awful those blacks were in North City to those idyllic white people. I get it. And you don't have to be an academic to understand how f'd up the Saint Louis power structure was wrt to blacks as they built this idyll... we're continuing to pay the price.
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Goodness.
Can we just agree that there's a lot of truth that has been shared over the last two pages- in the anecdotal accounts as well as the fact-based observations- with regards to demographics changes in the city and North County over the last 40-50 years? I have heard the same anecdotal accounts from white relatives and other older whites who felt intimidated in one way or another and thought they had no choice but to move. I also realize the unfortunate history of racism in St. Louis and how decisions by the white power structure negatively impacted blacks for decades. Much of the segregation we experience today no doubt can be traced back to shameful practices like redlining, blockbusting, and the presence of restrictive covenants, and unfortunately, St. Louis was the textbook example.
I don't have statistics with me as I write this, but I suspect that more than a few African-Americans who lived in north St. Louis or gentrifying (gee, is it okay if I use that word) areas like Shaw and Botanical Heights moved into other southside neighborhoods like Dutchtown, Gravois Park, and Mount Pleasant over the last ten years or so. Again, this is just my anecdotal observation, but I think the reverse of what happened in Shaw occurred in those areas. Simply put, while Shaw shifted toward more owner-occupied dwellings, I believe those neighborhoods have fewer homeowners and more renters. I do recall seeing statistics that showed the #1 destination for displaced McRee Town residents was ZIP code 63118, which includes a couple of the neighborhoods I mentioned, so that seems to confirm my thoughts on the demographic shift in this area.
Can we just agree that there's a lot of truth that has been shared over the last two pages- in the anecdotal accounts as well as the fact-based observations- with regards to demographics changes in the city and North County over the last 40-50 years? I have heard the same anecdotal accounts from white relatives and other older whites who felt intimidated in one way or another and thought they had no choice but to move. I also realize the unfortunate history of racism in St. Louis and how decisions by the white power structure negatively impacted blacks for decades. Much of the segregation we experience today no doubt can be traced back to shameful practices like redlining, blockbusting, and the presence of restrictive covenants, and unfortunately, St. Louis was the textbook example.
I don't have statistics with me as I write this, but I suspect that more than a few African-Americans who lived in north St. Louis or gentrifying (gee, is it okay if I use that word) areas like Shaw and Botanical Heights moved into other southside neighborhoods like Dutchtown, Gravois Park, and Mount Pleasant over the last ten years or so. Again, this is just my anecdotal observation, but I think the reverse of what happened in Shaw occurred in those areas. Simply put, while Shaw shifted toward more owner-occupied dwellings, I believe those neighborhoods have fewer homeowners and more renters. I do recall seeing statistics that showed the #1 destination for displaced McRee Town residents was ZIP code 63118, which includes a couple of the neighborhoods I mentioned, so that seems to confirm my thoughts on the demographic shift in this area.
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You go off on imaginary comments being made complaining about evil whites moving into neighborhoods and I can't comment on an actual comment that you made? okay, then!leeharveyawesome wrote: f***ing get off the "idyllic" thing. People just waxed nostalgic about the past. The city was intact, it worked, the built environment was beautiful, there were smoking chimneys and gas lamp posts and balconies and kids in the street and streetcars and sidewalks and ice trucks and corner stores and jobs and it was not crime ridden. It's just nostalgia from old man for something that's gone. No more no less. One guy said it was "idyllic". He never said anyone destroyed it and neither did I.
https://www.google.com/search?q=us+home ... channel=sbYou're describing gentrification.
Does anyone have a stat on homeownership rates in Shaw et al? If they do not exceed 65% or so, it's hard to say that the neighborhoods are gentrifying because of homeownership. To me there is a lot more to gentrification than that statistic.
Bingo, except not sure I'm 100% with you on the "vastly increased wealth" statement but totally with you for the rest of it. Everyone should read this: Mapping Decline: St. Louis and the Fate of the American City (Politics and Culture in Modern America). The history of it should be taught in the junior high and high school public education system.wustl_eng wrote:the thing is, those "poor working [white] people" who left had the benefit of being given home loans (G.I. bill also benefited blacks far less than it did whites) to buy houses which over time vastly increased their wealth relative to poor black people, who were stuck in redlined, decaying ghettos. So, yeah, those [white] people personally didn't "leave everything to rot," but a combination of mass exodus and racist housing policies resulted in just that.
So yeah, that's America alright--continuing its proud, intrinsic structures of oppression way through the 20th century.
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It's all good man.roger wyoming II wrote:You go off on imaginary comments being made complaining about evil whites moving into neighborhoods and I can't comment on an actual comment that you made? okay, then!leeharveyawesome wrote: f***ing get off the "idyllic" thing. People just waxed nostalgic about the past. The city was intact, it worked, the built environment was beautiful, there were smoking chimneys and gas lamp posts and balconies and kids in the street and streetcars and sidewalks and ice trucks and corner stores and jobs and it was not crime ridden. It's just nostalgia from old man for something that's gone. No more no less. One guy said it was "idyllic". He never said anyone destroyed it and neither did I.
On this forum I go back and forth between being fairly serious to somewhat like a wrestling villian who shows up just to start sh*t. If I've downed a gallon of coffee forget about it. I should probably just play Wordfeud instead. It's the same thing to me. Sorry.
leeharveyawesome wrote: I guess the difference is that I'm just working class poor white trash who is dumb enough to view everyone as equal in 2014 and you're in the Washington University faculty lounge picking over the bagels and talking about sh*t that happened 75 years ago.
Wow! You really burned me on that... I hope the bagel thing isn't targeted at WU's rep as a big Jewish school? I myself ain't Jewish and I don't think you'd stoop that low but it kinda jumped out at me.Now you're talking some sense.Who knows, you're probably right.
But seriously I don't wanna get all petty and sh*t on this forum so we should probably just drop it. I really do get where you're coming from but I like to correct misguided retellings of the past when I see em.
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Well, initially I was going to go with "picking over the barbecue chips and grape soda" but I thought maybe that might be in poor taste. I immediately thought of something plain -no pun intended- like a bagel and totally backed right into the WU/Jewish thing.wustl_eng wrote:leeharveyawesome wrote: I guess the difference is that I'm just working class poor white trash who is dumb enough to view everyone as equal in 2014 and you're in the Washington University faculty lounge picking over the bagels and talking about sh*t that happened 75 years ago.
I considered "picking over the dim sum" because, heck, people can say anything about Asians and nobody even bwinks an eye. Oh, man look what I've done! Typo! Typo!
In hindsight, I probably should've went with something we can all get behind like "picking over the Ebola cakes".
Thank you, good night and don't forget to tip your waitresses.
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Under what circumstances would St. Louis whites move into Shaw that did NOT include increased property values?onecity wrote:https://www.google.com/search?q=us+home ... channel=sbYou're describing gentrification.
Does anyone have a stat on homeownership rates in Shaw et al? If they do not exceed 65% or so, it's hard to say that the neighborhoods are gentrifying because of homeownership. To me there is a lot more to gentrification than that statistic.
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^ I think property values were increasing and some gentrification forces were at work, but it isn't like Shaw was flooded with new white arrivals. The percentage of white population did grow 12% and while that is high for Saint Louis City it really isn't much compared to those places where rapid gentrification hits you in the face. Shaw has always been a relatively stable neighborhood and has retained its top-notch Catholic school, etc. so it seems logical that there was less movement of whites out of the neighborhood say compared even to TGS, which lost its Catholic school & parish.
And rather than the relatively modest 388/12% gain in whites over the naughts, I'm more interested in the reasons behind the massive 1,804/38% drop in blacks.... as someone else said, affordable rents didn't suddenly disappear in the neighborhood. Perhaps part is that the recession hit black homeownership much harder with foreclosures. etc.
And rather than the relatively modest 388/12% gain in whites over the naughts, I'm more interested in the reasons behind the massive 1,804/38% drop in blacks.... as someone else said, affordable rents didn't suddenly disappear in the neighborhood. Perhaps part is that the recession hit black homeownership much harder with foreclosures. etc.
White people love square footage... LOL... I would be interested to see what the stats are in the average per-person amount of square footage white households have versus black households. Plus, in Shaw, I would guess you probably got a situation where African-American households w/children exist more so than white households without.roger wyoming II wrote: And rather than the relatively modest 388/12% gain in whites over the naughts, I'm more interested in the reasons behind the massive 1,804/38% drop in blacks.... .
^Kinda misspoke. To put it a different way, I would suspect the ratio of African-American households w/children versus without. Is higher than the ratio of white households w/children versus without. Again could be wrong, totally anecdotal.
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It's not that "there was less movement of whites" out of Shaw. There wasn't ANY net movement of whites out of Shaw. There are about 400 MORE whites in Shaw today than in 2000. One middle class family with an income of even $50,000 and access to credit and savings/investments can have the financial resources of 10 poor families living on food stamps, minimum wage jobs, and disability. Multiply that by 400 and you have major shift in financial power. People see the effects of these changes even if they don't have the numbers to prove it.roger wyoming II wrote:^ I think property values were increasing and some gentrification forces were at work, but it isn't like Shaw was flooded with new white arrivals. The percentage of white population did grow 12% and while that is high for Saint Louis City it really isn't much compared to those places where rapid gentrification hits you in the face. Shaw has always been a relatively stable neighborhood and has retained its top-notch Catholic school, etc. so it seems logical that there was less movement of whites out of the neighborhood say compared even to TGS, which lost its Catholic school & parish.
And rather than the relatively modest 388/12% gain in whites over the naughts, I'm more interested in the reasons behind the massive 1,804/38% drop in blacks.... as someone else said, affordable rents didn't suddenly disappear in the neighborhood. Perhaps part is that the recession hit black homeownership much harder with foreclosures. etc.
Is there anything that can be done at the local level to require longer sentences for violent offenders?
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^ I think it may take changes in state law to require stiffer sentences for violent crimes but there is a push for a special gun docket to give a stronger focus on these cases. There also is z push to get neighborhood impact testimony, etc. before judges.
btw, news is reporting 110 homicides for the year so far and closing in on last year's total of 120. We had 140 or so in 2010 and I hope we can at least keep below that.
btw, news is reporting 110 homicides for the year so far and closing in on last year's total of 120. We had 140 or so in 2010 and I hope we can at least keep below that.
I'm pretty sure I saw this in a movie once or twice....
Suspect Jumps Into Chicago Marathon to Escape Police Chase
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/suspe ... o-marathon
Suspect Jumps Into Chicago Marathon to Escape Police Chase
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/suspe ... o-marathon
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You aren't uptight and ridiculous about race and you have a sense of humor.terence d wrote:White people love square footage... LOL...roger wyoming II wrote: And rather than the relatively modest 388/12% gain in whites over the naughts, I'm more interested in the reasons behind the massive 1,804/38% drop in blacks.... .
Where did you move here from?
STL versus MPLS on a white person's likelihood of being murdered, since many white people comfort themselves about STL's relatively low white murder rate.
In 2011 (the only year I have a breakdown handy courtesy the RFT), there were 10 white murders in STL, out of a pop of about 147k, for a rate of 6.8 per 100k. That same year, a black St. Louisan could expect a murder rate of 62.4 per 100k. Currently, MPLS is on pace for 2 white murders in '14, from a pop of 70% of 400k, or 280k, for a rate of 0.71 per 100k, with a black murder rate of about 34 per 100k. So a white STLisan is about 9.6 times more likely to be murdered in any given year than a white Minneapolitan. And a black St. Louisan is almost 90 times as likely to be murdered in a given year as a white Minneapolitan (and much moreso in the highest crime neighborhoods), and almost twice as likely as a black Minneapolitan. I didn't realize the differences were quite that stark.
But guess what's still more dangerous? What kills Missourians at a rate of about 13 per 100k every year? Driving. A Missourian in a car is about twice as likely to die in a car accident as a white St. Louisan is to be murdered.
In 2011 (the only year I have a breakdown handy courtesy the RFT), there were 10 white murders in STL, out of a pop of about 147k, for a rate of 6.8 per 100k. That same year, a black St. Louisan could expect a murder rate of 62.4 per 100k. Currently, MPLS is on pace for 2 white murders in '14, from a pop of 70% of 400k, or 280k, for a rate of 0.71 per 100k, with a black murder rate of about 34 per 100k. So a white STLisan is about 9.6 times more likely to be murdered in any given year than a white Minneapolitan. And a black St. Louisan is almost 90 times as likely to be murdered in a given year as a white Minneapolitan (and much moreso in the highest crime neighborhoods), and almost twice as likely as a black Minneapolitan. I didn't realize the differences were quite that stark.
But guess what's still more dangerous? What kills Missourians at a rate of about 13 per 100k every year? Driving. A Missourian in a car is about twice as likely to die in a car accident as a white St. Louisan is to be murdered.
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I believe this site shows that 41 people died in car crashes with the City of St. Louis in 2013. So that would be a rate of about 13 per 100K.
http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/TR15Map/index.jsp
I see on Wikipedia that the demographics of the two cities are quite different -- Minneapolis is about 19% African American. St. Louis is 49%. Not sure how that plays into your stats.
http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/TR15Map/index.jsp
I see on Wikipedia that the demographics of the two cities are quite different -- Minneapolis is about 19% African American. St. Louis is 49%. Not sure how that plays into your stats.
I don't know enough about deep dive statistics to tell you how it does or doesn't play into my stats. But I took the # of white murders versus the white pop and same for black pop for both cities, and adjusted both per 100k.
So this keeps happening.
https://www.facebook.com/thedistrictsba ... =1&theater
It's at least the third incident I've heard about in a month.
Bands aren't going to play here if this goes on for much longer. A good number are already avoiding St. Louis entirely because of this.
https://www.facebook.com/thedistrictsba ... =1&theater
It's at least the third incident I've heard about in a month.
Bands aren't going to play here if this goes on for much longer. A good number are already avoiding St. Louis entirely because of this.
My guess is this is one single group of predators that prey on band vans. They know the GM key punch weakness and exploit it. Further down the thread someone else said their Dodge Sprinter parked nearby did NOT get hit.Aesir wrote:So this keeps happening.
https://www.facebook.com/thedistrictsba ... =1&theater
It's at least the third incident I've heard about in a month.
Bands aren't going to play here if this goes on for much longer. A good number are already avoiding St. Louis entirely because of this.
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You don't have to live in a municipality to be either a criminal or victim of crime in that municipality. The number of people present in an area should factor in to measures of crimes rates. I don't know if stats calculated on the basis of number of legal residents really get at rates of crime in a comparable way.onecity wrote:STL versus MPLS on a white person's likelihood of being murdered, since many white people comfort themselves about STL's relatively low white murder rate.
In 2011 (the only year I have a breakdown handy courtesy the RFT), there were 10 white murders in STL, out of a pop of about 147k, for a rate of 6.8 per 100k. That same year, a black St. Louisan could expect a murder rate of 62.4 per 100k. Currently, MPLS is on pace for 2 white murders in '14, from a pop of 70% of 400k, or 280k, for a rate of 0.71 per 100k, with a black murder rate of about 34 per 100k. So a white STLisan is about 9.6 times more likely to be murdered in any given year than a white Minneapolitan. And a black St. Louisan is almost 90 times as likely to be murdered in a given year as a white Minneapolitan (and much moreso in the highest crime neighborhoods), and almost twice as likely as a black Minneapolitan. I didn't realize the differences were quite that stark.
But guess what's still more dangerous? What kills Missourians at a rate of about 13 per 100k every year? Driving. A Missourian in a car is about twice as likely to die in a car accident as a white St. Louisan is to be murdered.
Well, annual tourism is about 21M visitors for STL versus about 18M for MPLS. Divided by the number of residents in each city, you have 66 visitors per resident in STL and about 45 visitors per resident in MPLS. Don't ask me how that impacts the numbers, because I don't have any idea. Maybe it makes MPLS' numbers 50% worse or STL's numbers 33% better? Someone with more math should speak.