What's interesting to me is that, for the most part, almost everyone on this forum would characterize what's been going on in Shaw (and Benton Park, and TGS/TGE, the Grove, Cherokee, etc.) over the past 10-15 years as "progress." The prevailing narrative on these boards has been that these areas went through a period of long decline and have recently been picking up steam and are on their way to becoming healthy, thriving neighborhoods. Nevermind the fact that this "progress" we're all so giddy about is basically characterized by black people moving out and white people moving in. Of course, everyone claims that what they're REALLY after is a racially and economically "diverse" neighborhood, but, boy, wouldn't it be great if we could get a Trader Joe's on Jefferson!? Some new luxury multifamily on Manchester!? Makes all of this recent concern for less advantaged black people seem fairly disingenuous to me.terence d wrote: I think there is a chance people are being pushed out of Shaw through gentrification over the last 10-15 years. I have no numbers to back this up, but only through my observations of being a past resident of Shaw and a visitor from time to time in more recent years. I would bet the number of homeowners (who I imagine are largely white) has increased a good amount in this time frame and the number of renters (who I bet would statistically be a decent percentage of African-Americans) has decreased. I would imagine property values have increased over this time frame, with once rental units converting to homes for sale.
If you can no longer afford to rent in a neighborhood you consider your home/community and can therefore no longer afford to live there you are being pushed out.
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The departure of blacks and the arrival of whites in central St. Louis is part of the 'rebalancing' of metro St. Louis. It's not a problem, it's a solution.
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I think the biggest success when St.Louis can become more than a vanilla/chocolate city as i remember former Mayor and crook Nagen said about NO... Diversifying the city is essential for all neighborhoods to continue to grow. Pushing blacks out won't solve anything trying to retain them is important.
As for Vonderitt it's very sad he wasn't given a chance but it all boils down to his parents not being responsible role models in his life . Too others he was just another existing life petering to extinction.
As i tell my friends parents are responsible for our children's lives till about 18 thats enough time to teach them how to respect one another from old young black white chinese hispanic male female transgendered gay, people with disabilities etc. The lack of respect for each other is nearly astronomical.
As for the the protesters I'm sure they kind of regret jumping the gun to side with someone who was a proven troublemaker but thats how it goes.. We should all learn facts before coming to conclusions on why and i personally feel the protesting hasn't solved anything but increase disparities between people...
As for Vonderitt it's very sad he wasn't given a chance but it all boils down to his parents not being responsible role models in his life . Too others he was just another existing life petering to extinction.
As i tell my friends parents are responsible for our children's lives till about 18 thats enough time to teach them how to respect one another from old young black white chinese hispanic male female transgendered gay, people with disabilities etc. The lack of respect for each other is nearly astronomical.
As for the the protesters I'm sure they kind of regret jumping the gun to side with someone who was a proven troublemaker but thats how it goes.. We should all learn facts before coming to conclusions on why and i personally feel the protesting hasn't solved anything but increase disparities between people...
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Do you know how painful it was for tens of thousands of white people who left their histories and their culture behind during the change in North St. Louis and parts of South St. Louis? Sure, many left by choice but many felt like they had no choice. Either way it was painful. I've talked to old people. I've heard the word "idyllic" a few times to describe their childhoods, their families, their neighborhoods in the city way back when. And in the parts of the city that are still intact one could imagine an almost idyllic situation. A bustling working city that was safe with good schools and a church and tavern on every corner.
I talked to an old mailman who grew up on the north side. He was STILL nostalgic and sad about what happened. He said all of a sudden they were one of the last white families on the block. He was beaten up frequently, his family intimidated, he was told "this is our neighborhood now" and things like that. They finally moved. His old block and the neighborhood basically no longer exists.
Nasheed is an idiot and the only reason anyone pretends to take her seriously is because they don't want to run the risk of being called racist.
Everyone on this forum would probably simply call the people who were displaced in North St. Louis racists for leaving. Madness.
We have lost our minds (and a damn near idyllic city along with it).
I talked to an old mailman who grew up on the north side. He was STILL nostalgic and sad about what happened. He said all of a sudden they were one of the last white families on the block. He was beaten up frequently, his family intimidated, he was told "this is our neighborhood now" and things like that. They finally moved. His old block and the neighborhood basically no longer exists.
Nasheed is an idiot and the only reason anyone pretends to take her seriously is because they don't want to run the risk of being called racist.
Everyone on this forum would probably simply call the people who were displaced in North St. Louis racists for leaving. Madness.
We have lost our minds (and a damn near idyllic city along with it).
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leeharveyawesome wrote:Do you know how painful it was for tens of thousands of white people who left their histories and their culture behind during the change in North St. Louis and parts of South St. Louis? Sure, many left by choice but many felt like they had no choice. Either way it was painful. I've talked to old people. I've heard the word "idyllic" a few times to describe their childhoods, their families, their neighborhoods in the city way back when. And in the parts of the city that are still intact one could imagine an almost idyllic situation. A bustling working city that was safe with good schools and a church and tavern on every corner.
I talked to an old mailman who grew up on the north side. He was STILL nostalgic and sad about what happened. He said all of a sudden they were one of the last white families on the block. He was beaten up frequently, his family intimidated, he was told "this is our neighborhood now" and things like that. They finally moved. His old block and the neighborhood basically no longer exists.
Nasheed is an idiot and the only reason anyone pretends to take her seriously is because they don't want to run the risk of being called racist.
Everyone on this forum would probably simply call the people who were displaced in North St. Louis racists for leaving. Madness.
We have lost our minds (and a damn near idyllic city along with it).
Here, here, I'll buy you an on-line drink! I have relatives who just recently closed shop at their business in North STL....It's bittersweet for them. Thye miss the old days of NSTL so badly, but feel like they have a fresh start in Sunset Hills....and their biz has doubled in the 6 months they've relocated....
As for Sen. Nasheed, I called her a fool on this forum yesterday, that was too nice....she's the female version of Lucifer!
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Sen. Nasheed was on KSDK yesterday defending her actions in the recent protesting. They asked her about her claims of him being shot in the head and with promoting the civil unrest. Her response was essentially that the Dad gave her false info so she corrected it on social media (her account is private... so that's not exactly a transparent platform) and that she thinks the police have given out too many details, thus potentially corrupting the investigation. (Which is HILLARIOUS since she was one of the loudest voices about transparency in investigations after the Mike Brown case). She seems to be all over the place on her stances, views, and actions.
I don't normally get too political and I consider myself to be on the extreme side of being liberal... but I'd be embarrassed to have her be my state senator. The next election will be fun to see who opposes her and the ads they run.
I don't normally get too political and I consider myself to be on the extreme side of being liberal... but I'd be embarrassed to have her be my state senator. The next election will be fun to see who opposes her and the ads they run.
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^^and^^^
Yes it's a shame those idyllic nabes disappeared in NSTL
But let's not forget it wasn't so "idyllic" for the hundreds of thousands of St. Louisans who were not white.
I don't condone the intimidation that whites received when they were exiting those areas, but let's not forget the decades upon decades of intimidation blacks received when they stepped out of where they" belonged"
I have relatives who left Baden in the 70s.
When I hear them wax nostalgic about the good ole days I have to take it with a grain of salt. Nostalgia causes us all to whitewash (no pun intended) over certain negative aspects and for some old timers Remember When is an acceptable way to showcase bigotry.
As for the demographic changes in Shaw, TGE, FPSE and other areas of STL I welcome them. St. Louis is still a diverse and affordable city. And we desperately NEED more citizens with decent paying jobs in all of our neighborhoods. They can be white, black, Hispanic, Asian, it doesn't matter to me.
We are nowhere near Manhattan or San Francisco levels of gentrification where service workers cannot afford to live in the city anymore.
Yes it's a shame those idyllic nabes disappeared in NSTL
But let's not forget it wasn't so "idyllic" for the hundreds of thousands of St. Louisans who were not white.
I don't condone the intimidation that whites received when they were exiting those areas, but let's not forget the decades upon decades of intimidation blacks received when they stepped out of where they" belonged"
I have relatives who left Baden in the 70s.
When I hear them wax nostalgic about the good ole days I have to take it with a grain of salt. Nostalgia causes us all to whitewash (no pun intended) over certain negative aspects and for some old timers Remember When is an acceptable way to showcase bigotry.
As for the demographic changes in Shaw, TGE, FPSE and other areas of STL I welcome them. St. Louis is still a diverse and affordable city. And we desperately NEED more citizens with decent paying jobs in all of our neighborhoods. They can be white, black, Hispanic, Asian, it doesn't matter to me.
We are nowhere near Manhattan or San Francisco levels of gentrification where service workers cannot afford to live in the city anymore.
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I strongly disagree with that. For one, in the one instance that it was clear that blacks were being forced out with a major project was met with a lot of concern from people... that being McRee Town for the Botanical Hts. project. Elsewhere, the demographic changes had been more subtle and haven't really became apparent until more recently with a better understanding of census number results. Take where I live, TGS, where the neighborhood lost both blacks, whites and Asians over the naughts. And even places like Shaw and FPSE, where there was a modest gain in whites and a dramatic loss of blacks, there still exists a high black population. I believe there was a post not long ago on nextstl that said Saint Louis didn't even have gentrification.Anglophile wrote: What's interesting to me is that, for the most part, almost everyone on this forum would characterize what's been going on in Shaw (and Benton Park, and TGS/TGE, the Grove, Cherokee, etc.) over the past 10-15 years as "progress." The prevailing narrative on these boards has been that these areas went through a period of long decline and have recently been picking up steam and are on their way to becoming healthy, thriving neighborhoods. Nevermind the fact that this "progress" we're all so giddy about is basically characterized by black people moving out and white people moving in. Of course, everyone claims that what they're REALLY after is a racially and economically "diverse" neighborhood, but, boy, wouldn't it be great if we could get a Trader Joe's on Jefferson!? Some new luxury multifamily on Manchester!? Makes all of this recent concern for less advantaged black people seem fairly disingenuous to me.
Also, we have to remember that blacks were also fleeing North City neighborhoods last decade as well, many with the thought that our poor public schools were a major factor.... this could also have been/still be one of several other reasons for some of the movement of blacks rather than simply being "pushed out" economically. So as with almost all urban issues, things are complicated. And the key moving forward is recognizing the importance of addressing affordable housing and other issues as needed investments are made in these attractive neighborhoods.
I don't really mind gentrification, to be honest the rents in St. Louis City aren't unaffordable in the areas we're talking about (Shaw, Tower Grove)...they're certainly comparable to rents in North County where they are most likely moving to. In MatthewHalls defense Blacks in St. Louis have long suspected that St. Louis City was going to come back in a major way and they wouldn't be included/pushed out to North County. I can understand that line of thinking...however, I don't feel like the city is remotely unaffordable for those who would still like to live in the City and I also blacks are voluntarily leaving, instead of investing in the community and building it up. We need a few pioneers that are willing to build instead of moving into more already liveable/turn key areas. Its a lot easier to just move out to Florissant than to say, "I want to help turn Walnut Park" around and I think a lot of Blacks take that easy way out.
As far as who's pushing who out of communities, I think St. Louis just has a problem with an area having to be a black area or a white area. Why can't Shaw/Tower Grove stay 40/60 or 50/50 or 40/40 with other races mixed in?
As far as who's pushing who out of communities, I think St. Louis just has a problem with an area having to be a black area or a white area. Why can't Shaw/Tower Grove stay 40/60 or 50/50 or 40/40 with other races mixed in?
Again, if the metro is 15% or 18% black (I don't have it up before me), then unless a neighborhood dips below that threshold, it's hard to say there's actually a gentrification of blacks-being-pushed-out problem. It's just normalization to that point. Put all greater STLers in a blender, and that's what happens. And here's a different question: Is it important for the city of STL to remain disproportionately black and the rest of the region to remain disproportionately white?
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Why are white people moving to Shaw and many other central St. Louis city neighborhoods and blacks leaving those same neighborhoods?
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^I suspect that the owner-occupied rate in places like Shaw has increased considerably over the last decade and that it has led to white homeowners replacing black renters.
Ok, while I agree with you that not everyone who left North STL was racist, and maybe felt like they had no choice, and maybe even were victimized/intimidated by black people who had just moved in... this revisionist history of the black scourge moving in and kicking the white people out of their beautiful idyllic neighborhoods is just absurd. There was way, way more flagrant racism against black people from almost all levels of the city (and country)--government planners, real estate industry, regular ol' people just getting by. Not to mention the whole past half century of outright legal discrimination, harassment (racial pogrom/murder in East STL), unequal economic opportunity. Are you really asking us to feel sorry for the real victims here, the white North St Louisans? Oh brother.leeharveyawesome wrote:Do you know how painful it was for tens of thousands of white people who left their histories and their culture behind during the change in North St. Louis and parts of South St. Louis? Sure, many left by choice but many felt like they had no choice. Either way it was painful. I've talked to old people. I've heard the word "idyllic" a few times to describe their childhoods, their families, their neighborhoods in the city way back when. And in the parts of the city that are still intact one could imagine an almost idyllic situation. A bustling working city that was safe with good schools and a church and tavern on every corner.
I talked to an old mailman who grew up on the north side. He was STILL nostalgic and sad about what happened. He said all of a sudden they were one of the last white families on the block. He was beaten up frequently, his family intimidated, he was told "this is our neighborhood now" and things like that. They finally moved. His old block and the neighborhood basically no longer exists.
Everyone on this forum would probably simply call the people who were displaced in North St. Louis racists for leaving. Madness.
We have lost our minds (and a damn near idyllic city along with it).
Oh wait. I forgot that ridiculous revisionist history is kind of your thing: http://urbanstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 32#p238332
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I think that this points to some other reasons why blacks are migrating out in raw numbers to the County... e.g. schools and crime, etc. - some of the same reasons that many whites left. Blacks though are also coming in greater numbers across deeper South City such as Dutchtown, Bevo Mill, Northhampton, Carondolet. etc. etc.. And also some Central Corridor and Near North neighborhoods have gained black population, including Downtown, Midtown, Old North, Carr Square and Saint Louis Place.Trap8648 wrote:I don't really mind gentrification, to be honest the rents in St. Louis City aren't unaffordable in the areas we're talking about (Shaw, Tower Grove)...they're certainly comparable to rents in North County where they are most likely moving to.
So as onecity says, the City and region as a whole is becoming more diverse and integrated but some neighborhoods are seeing a much more rapid change than others -- and Matthew is right that this change is happening most in nabes like Shaw, FPSE & CWE where gentrification factors most likely are in play. Anyway, a complex subject for sure.
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The problem with St.Louis is we need to be gentrifying NSTL along with ESTL.. Im not buying that blacks pushed whites out cause thats just plain ignorant... Whites made a decision to get out for greener pastures knowing very well that most blacks at that time weren't able to afford those types of luxuries until you had Kinloch which was the first major all black suburb "correct me if I'm wrong on that" where they could move too... Thats why you then had whites who fled NSTL to NC and now STC... Now whats left of NSTL is mostly residents who live below the poverty level maybe a few exceptions..
Although i said some choice words on a few of my post which I'm sorry about. I'm not a Jemilah Nasheed fan but i'll never disrespect her i just don't agree with her views.
Although i said some choice words on a few of my post which I'm sorry about. I'm not a Jemilah Nasheed fan but i'll never disrespect her i just don't agree with her views.
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Sadly crime has always been St.Louis's achilles heel. This is what drugs illegal weapons along with a high poverty rate does to any city in this country. While other city have been highly proactive/aggressive about crime i think St.Louis is stuck in a status quo state of mind. Now is time for city leaders here to wake up an address the issue publicly instead over the media. I know that it will take a while for residents to trust the police however they need your help more than ever if we have hopes of St.Louis ever being a safe city. 315,000 with 110 is way over the hill. Seriously theres something wrong with that picture
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Everyone acts like all the people who left the city were Rockefellers and Carnegies and they took all their money and left everything to rot. It was mostly just poor working people who left. Historically, poor working people work, survive, move up and maybe move on and then some more poor working strivers come along and do the same thing. That's America.
I might live on the most diverse block in the city. There's one lady who's always b*tching about "thugs". She's black.
I just don't get why when things get "browner" as people like to say we "celebrate" and bust out the crayons and draw rainbows and people holding hands but if it gets a smidge whiter then it's some sort evil racist plot.
Outside of the realm of discussions on this forum I don't even think about this sh*t to be honest. I just feel the need to respond when I see some of these wack statements.
We need jobs. I wish some politicians would focus like a laser beam on that sh*t instead of all this other divisive and harmful rhetoric.
I might live on the most diverse block in the city. There's one lady who's always b*tching about "thugs". She's black.
I just don't get why when things get "browner" as people like to say we "celebrate" and bust out the crayons and draw rainbows and people holding hands but if it gets a smidge whiter then it's some sort evil racist plot.
Outside of the realm of discussions on this forum I don't even think about this sh*t to be honest. I just feel the need to respond when I see some of these wack statements.
We need jobs. I wish some politicians would focus like a laser beam on that sh*t instead of all this other divisive and harmful rhetoric.
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You're describing gentrification.south compton wrote:^I suspect that the owner-occupied rate in places like Shaw has increased considerably over the last decade and that it has led to white homeowners replacing black renters.
All of this is happening because St. Louis is changing, not because it is sustaining its status quo. The protestors are targeting centers of white power in central St. Louis, not in Chesterfield or St. Charles. They are doing this because they resent their recent success in central St. Louis. Criminals are just hiding behind them to do their business. The protestors, in the end, want to associate themselves with success as much as anyone else. They just resent how St. Louis continues to put space between then and successful areas even as blacks leave old areas and move to new ones. Even moving to suburban Ferguson doesn't seem to work for St. Louis blacks and they understandably resent this. Imagine if you'd lived your life in a poor, black, but proud neighborhood like Shaw that you though could never be successful and white people with money and credit show up and prove you wrong. You'd be upset. You'd realize it wasn't the location that made you unsuccessful, it was bigger and stronger than that. That's what's going on.
Way to go, man, drop that ignorant myth of "black people kicking out innocent white people" and don't even try to defend it or say it was a stupid thing to argue. And the thing is, those "poor working [white] people" who left had the benefit of being given home loans (G.I. bill also benefited blacks far less than it did whites) to buy houses which over time vastly increased their wealth relative to poor black people, who were stuck in redlined, decaying ghettos. So, yeah, those [white] people personally didn't "leave everything to rot," but a combination of mass exodus and racist housing policies resulted in just that.leeharveyawesome wrote:Everyone acts like all the people who left the city were Rockefellers and Carnegies and they took all their money and left everything to rot. It was mostly just poor working people who left. Historically, poor working people work, survive, move up and maybe move on and then some more poor working strivers come along and do the same thing. That's America.
Outside of the realm of discussions on this forum I don't even think about this sh*t to be honest. I just feel the need to respond when I see some of these wack statements.
So yeah, that's America alright--continuing its proud, intrinsic structures of oppression way through the 20th century.
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leeharveyawesome wrote: I just don't get why when things get "browner" as people like to say we "celebrate" and bust out the crayons and draw rainbows and people holding hands but if it gets a smidge whiter then it's some sort evil racist plot.... Outside of the realm of discussions on this forum I don't even think about this sh*t to be honest. I just feel the need to respond when I see some of these wack statements.
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I guess the difference is that I'm just working class poor white trash who is dumb enough to view everyone as equal in 2014 and you're in the Washington University faculty lounge picking over the bagels and talking about sh*t that happened 75 years ago.wustl_eng wrote:Way to go, man, drop that ignorant myth of "black people kicking out innocent white people" and don't even try to defend it or say it was a stupid thing to argue. And the thing is, those "poor working [white] people" who left had the benefit of being given home loans (G.I. bill also benefited blacks far less than it did whites) to buy houses which over time vastly increased their wealth relative to poor black people, who were stuck in redlined, decaying ghettos. So, yeah, those [white] people personally didn't "leave everything to rot," but a combination of mass exodus and racist housing policies resulted in just that.leeharveyawesome wrote:Everyone acts like all the people who left the city were Rockefellers and Carnegies and they took all their money and left everything to rot. It was mostly just poor working people who left. Historically, poor working people work, survive, move up and maybe move on and then some more poor working strivers come along and do the same thing. That's America.
Outside of the realm of discussions on this forum I don't even think about this sh*t to be honest. I just feel the need to respond when I see some of these wack statements.
So yeah, that's America alright--continuing its proud, intrinsic structures of oppression way through the 20th century.
Who knows, you're probably right.
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Don't ever mess with the opinions of the intellectually elite, they are the smartest people in dreamland... I mean the real world.....