urbanSTL

newstl2020 wrote:^The real question is for how long. If the crowds only come for a year or two, it is a collosal disaster.

^^ Yes, Ballpark Village could be empty within 2 years. It is also possible that all the Post Dispatch's stock responders could have a change of heart and move into high rise residential properties would replace all surface parking downtown; this development could spark a renaissance that sees STL develop into one of the great cultural hubs of the western world and Lambert could have direct more direct flights to Asia than LAX. We know these aren't going to happen.

Realistically the city will grant the TIF and Ballpark Village will happen... the project will be finished in 2 or 3 phases and each one will be "downsized" for a total price tag of $400M - $500M... and no real residential will be built. It won't be a game changer, but it will be another piece in the puzzle. Folks (the kind of people who don't come to Washington Ave) will come down for special occasions, and they will consider having dinner there before going to a sporting event or a drink afterward. It won’t be exactly like KC P&L or Baltimore Power Plant live, but we all know their “successful formula” and that is what they will go for and get. Once this is built, people will be spending more time and more money at a venue that doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. If it is anything like KC – suburbanite perception of the urban core will change – even if slightly – for the better. Kansas City stupidly backed the bonds - St. Louis shouldn't and from what I hear isn't planning on it.

KC P&L is next to an arena with no pro-team, otherwise downtown KC doesn't have, short of office buildings, any major existing OD generators nearby. It is cut off by highways and has no real transit to speak of. P&L is a “glorified ugly outdoor mall”.

KC P&L must be doing horrible; especially when you find out that there have been numerous high-profile blunders on the part of Cordish and the city dealing with the management of the district, including numerous claims of racism. Wow it must be a disaster! It has been open for more than a year or two so it must be empty....

YET KC P&L is busy 3 years later, and it adds something distinct to downtown KC. It isn't soaring to the lofty expectations painted 7 years ago, but it certainly busy every time I go down there. It brought retailers, restaurants and patrons whom probably wouldn't have considered downtown KC otherwise. Some other developments are being talked about nearby - noting the added traffic. As someone who works downtown, I enjoy the restaurants it brought in - some locally owned and some chain. It is far from perfect, and I am not claiming it is - more over I’m playing devil’s advocate. But if you were to ask most people in KC (vast majority of whom aren’t urban snobs), I think they would say KC P&L doesn't detract from KC. In fact, the "stage" and development has become an OD generator and catalyst in itself. Who knows what is will be like in 20 years, but at the moment it is doing what it proposed, bringing people downtown, nothing more and making money for its owner. If the other, as of yet proposed, developments around it are realized – I would say it wasn’t a failure but one of many varied evils that were necessary stepping stone on downtown’s long road back from the abyss.

Downtown St. Louis has more going for it, IMO than KC. There is a proven 3 Million person per year attendance generator within 2 blocks of the site. There is a (soon to be upgraded) national monument within a mile that draws millions from around the region? country? World?. There are 2 other sports venues (and soon add Peabody Opera House) within 9 or 10 blocks that bring people downtown year round... each with a transit stop that connects them to this development. I would expect Ballpark Village to be as or more successful than KC Power and Light District, and thus possibly nicer in the long run…

The renderings from 2006 that ya’ll salivated over will never happen. Financial, residential, and office markets will make sure of that. Also, downtown St. Louis already has organically filled some of the holes that Ballpark Village had talked about filling (like grocery store). When first proposed 10 years ago, the magic bullet was sought, now it is avoided. And lower expectations and less pressure = lower price tag = potentially less time until TIF is paid off. I think most people who frequent this forum will hate what is realized, but they aren’t the target audience. Downtown STL has already made great strides with home-grown urban infill. It is about to seeing new-build high-rise residential opening. This development proposes something we have been asking for – a new class A office tower, however uninspiring, with the promise of more in the future. “Suburban friendly” urban development (or Disney Urban) is just another piece of the puzzle. The only thing for sure is that, thus far, it has worked thus far in KC, and other cities, in at least getting downtown back on the map in the eyes of most metro residents. Hopefully downtown will have matured enough in 20 years that our discussion is about tearing this down for Transbay Center (SF) or Lakeshore East (Chicago) style infill.

I do and don't agree with Slay on his comments. Downtown doesn't necessarily need BPV as what was originally envisioned. I'm sure everybody is agreeing on that one. What I might have missed or maybe don't see in the full context of his comments is that downtowns do need new class A office space. BVP with Stifel being committed is the best chance at the moment and I think Slay and the alderman know it so you will see this grudgingly happen. However, I wish Slay would do a better job of selling the fact that competitive regions need a healthy dose of new Class A space.

The one big downfall I see is that a mid rise tower won't do this site justice or future opportunities. In that context, St Louis is back competing against the second Centente tower and the rest of the region. Some speculative space in this tower, another 150,000 to 200,000 sf (10 stories) would finally put downtown into a very competitive position.

tbspqr wrote:

newstl2020 wrote:^The real question is for how long. If the crowds only come for a year or two, it is a collosal disaster.

^^ Yes, Ballpark Village could be empty within 2 years. It is also possible that all the Post Dispatch's stock responders could have a change of heart and move into high rise residential properties would replace all surface parking downtown; this development could spark a renaissance that sees STL develop into one of the great cultural hubs of the western world and Lambert could have direct more direct flights to Asia than LAX. We know these aren't going to happen.

Realistically the city will grant the TIF and Ballpark Village will happen... the project will be finished in 2 or 3 phases and each one will be "downsized" for a total price tag of $400M - $500M... and no real residential will be built. It won't be a game changer, but it will be another piece in the puzzle. Folks (the kind of people who don't come to Washington Ave) will come down for special occasions, and they will consider having dinner there before going to a sporting event or a drink afterward. It won’t be exactly like KC P&L or Baltimore Power Plant live, but we all know their “successful formula” and that is what they will go for and get. Once this is built, people will be spending more time and more money at a venue that doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. If it is anything like KC – suburbanite perception of the urban core will change – even if slightly – for the better. Kansas City stupidly backed the bonds - St. Louis shouldn't and from what I hear isn't planning on it.

KC P&L is next to an arena with no pro-team, otherwise downtown KC doesn't have, short of office buildings, any major existing OD generators nearby. It is cut off by highways and has no real transit to speak of. P&L is a “glorified ugly outdoor mall”.

KC P&L must be doing horrible; especially when you find out that there have been numerous high-profile blunders on the part of Cordish and the city dealing with the management of the district, including numerous claims of racism. Wow it must be a disaster! It has been open for more than a year or two so it must be empty....

YET KC P&L is busy 3 years later, and it adds something distinct to downtown KC. It isn't soaring to the lofty expectations painted 7 years ago, but it certainly busy every time I go down there. It brought retailers, restaurants and patrons whom probably wouldn't have considered downtown KC otherwise. Some other developments are being talked about nearby - noting the added traffic. As someone who works downtown, I enjoy the restaurants it brought in - some locally owned and some chain. It is far from perfect, and I am not claiming it is - more over I’m playing devil’s advocate. But if you were to ask most people in KC (vast majority of whom aren’t urban snobs), I think they would say KC P&L doesn't detract from KC. In fact, the "stage" and development has become an OD generator and catalyst in itself. Who knows what is will be like in 20 years, but at the moment it is doing what it proposed, bringing people downtown, nothing more and making money for its owner. If the other, as of yet proposed, developments around it are realized – I would say it wasn’t a failure but one of many varied evils that were necessary stepping stone on downtown’s long road back from the abyss.

Downtown St. Louis has more going for it, IMO than KC. There is a proven 3 Million person per year attendance generator within 2 blocks of the site. There is a (soon to be upgraded) national monument within a mile that draws millions from around the region? country? World?. There are 2 other sports venues (and soon add Peabody Opera House) within 9 or 10 blocks that bring people downtown year round... each with a transit stop that connects them to this development. I would expect Ballpark Village to be as or more successful than KC Power and Light District, and thus possibly nicer in the long run…

The renderings from 2006 that ya’ll salivated over will never happen. Financial, residential, and office markets will make sure of that. Also, downtown St. Louis already has organically filled some of the holes that Ballpark Village had talked about filling (like grocery store). When first proposed 10 years ago, the magic bullet was sought, now it is avoided. And lower expectations and less pressure = lower price tag = potentially less time until TIF is paid off. I think most people who frequent this forum will hate what is realized, but they aren’t the target audience. Downtown STL has already made great strides with home-grown urban infill. It is about to seeing new-build high-rise residential opening. This development proposes something we have been asking for – a new class A office tower, however uninspiring, with the promise of more in the future. “Suburban friendly” urban development (or Disney Urban) is just another piece of the puzzle. The only thing for sure is that, thus far, it has worked thus far in KC, and other cities, in at least getting downtown back on the map in the eyes of most metro residents. Hopefully downtown will have matured enough in 20 years that our discussion is about tearing this down for Transbay Center (SF) or Lakeshore East (Chicago) style infill.

But if things happen the way they are slated to, there will still be the problem of busy in spurts and dead the rest of the time. A mixture of uses that does not include residential will do little to help the downtown sustain itself both in terms of vitality and financially. Now, I understand that the Cardinals claim it will be a component later, but I won't bank on it. Again, I understand the market will not bear this at the moment, but until I see the list of future tenets and get a better idea of the final design, then I will not blindly support this development. This coming from a guy who sees this as something the downtown needs, whether its called BPV or is just a well varied mix of uses and sound design. The Power and Light district seems little more than a showy disneyfication cities. I really hope the city holds BPV to a higher standard. Especially on a project with TIF funds, But I will in no way hold my breath.

RobbyD wrote:I really think a key to the ultimate success of BPV is a creating another 'free' or 'nearly free' attraction that has been the bread and butter of St. Louis family attractions...

Along these lines, I think a brand new Cardianl HOF Museum could be a pretty big draw, especially if it's built specifically for the Cards and no longer has to share space with the Bowling HOF. It's old location made it seem like such an after-thought. A prime location at the entrance to BPV could change that.

How about expanding to more than just a Cardinal HOF. How about a Baseball Experience center for all of baseball, and make the Cardinal HOF a subset of it. It could be sort of an accessible Baseball HOF. How many people ever get to visit Cooperstown? I could have a lot of interactive things for kids like the temporary exhibit at the Convention Center during the All-Star game. Kind of a Rock and Roll HOF for all of baseball.

One fear is Ballpark Village isn't going to be utilized except the 81 nights the Cards are home. When do you think the Cardinal HOF and/or Baseball Experience would generate the vast majority of their business? What is needed is a good variety of "events" to draw people down the 275+ nights a year that aren't Cards home games. This can't be seen as a BASEBALL development but a general entertainment development… entertainment for the bar crowd, for families, for everyone… otherwise Ballpark Village is doomed.

What Cordish does well here in KC is their concerts - the stage is home to free concert series which draws in patrons. Radio stations promote downtown as the place to be. They had a world cup view party that was talked about on the BBC.

I dream Ballpark Village to be so much more. Ideas I can come up with real quick:
SLSO should have a casual concert. The musicians dress down in jeans and play to a wider audience on that stage who wouldn't normally see them.
SLAM can tap their vast collection and put some on display; Interactive exhibits from SLSC about _____; MoBot can bring in some real awesome plants and make it an extension of City Garden.
We could bring Ted Drew’s downtown; have a St. Louis Zoo's Children’s Museum annex; Political rallies; techno on weekends; Fashion Shows during St. Louis Fashion Week; City Museum style creative and interactive playground.
There could be easy Taste of St. Louis tie ins; Go! St. Louis Marathon post–race activities and High school and local University watch parties or rallies.

Some of these ideas seem crazy/underdeveloped to me... I am trying to think of non-cheesy or non-gimmicky things, but tasteful events / attractions that grab people who otherwise wouldn’t come downtown. I am not talking about replacing any of the events or taking away from downtown, but expanding them here – to include this new part of downtown.

Adding , in addition to the main “stage” area, an area for these traveling “cultural” things to be shown one or two at a time. Free exhibits that tourists and locals alike can browse at their leisure. What I am getting at is you need to attract a WIDE range of people and that takes a wide range of attractions. Lets face it - the non-sporting event demographic downtown is bigger than it used to be, but nowhere what it could be. Even in baseball-crazy St. Louis, there are people who wont be attracted by baseball themed attractions. Tourists probably dont care about the Cardinals at all. I see Ballpark Village as a way to get those people to fall in love with downtown St. Louis as I have. Cordish will like the ideas because it gets more people down to their development, they have, from time to time, asked for ideas in how to attract people to their developments (prior to construction). The city will like the $$ being spent downtown, the participating organizations should like it because they are expanding their reach to new audiences.

Begging isn’t going to bring a $500 Million 40 story high-rise to the development. But some ideas that are low in cost to implement but bringing people downtown (who otherwise wouldn’t have) are more along the lines of what the Cordish wants. The “it is going to fail within 2 years” or “it looks like a suburban shopping mall” mentalities don’t help… we all know Cordish isn’t going to change except in their best (fiscal) interest.

I wonder if we'll see Fox Sports Grill come in to BPV. That could be a nice addition.

Who does the programming for P&L in KC? Do the individual restaurants/retailers all contribute, is there some sort of P&L District supervisor, or does some city/quasi-governmental body handle the programming? I worry about having another space in need of programming downtown. We have ample space already, and most of it is underprogrammed. I like a lot of the above ideas but I don't think an additional performance space is needed: send them to OPO Plaza, Kiener, the Arch grounds (which is also likely to add yet another concert/performance venue to the city, because no development bigger than 1 block is complete without one), the library when it's refinished, etc.

Adding another underutilized open space is not needed downtown. In my mind, leaving empty space for future development is preferable to building something in BPV that we'll regret in ten years. I don't think we should be so desperate for something to happen in BPV that we accept a plan with serious flaws. Build the office tower and accompanying retail by all means, but don't build an open area in anticipation of everyone from the region flocking in to use it. It worked for CityGarden but I'm skeptical that something new would draw just as many new people in.

RobbyD wrote: I just won't be surprised if BALLPARK Village retains a sports theme and focus...=D

Sports theme = fine as it is called "ballpark village". Busch will be its biggest supplier of warm bodies.

If this development is “all Cardinals all the time”, it is doomed to fail. I hope (and feel) it will be more than that - Cordish should at least attempt to engage more local institutions... get their input and make this St. Louis' own (St. Louis is more than just baseball, beer and cheesy suburban shopping mall looking development). I’ll bet the more institutions you engage (especially Cassilly) – the less Ballpark Village will resemble Richmond Heights’ Boulevard-Saint Louis.

Add to my list an awesome beer garden... not Flying Saucer or ITAP (neither of which would be bad) but an authentic beer garden.

tbspqr wrote:Is the city is in the fiscal position to pay performers, handle security etc? Are there any organizations capable of and willing to setting this up? Get numerous (not just one or two) events organized, publicized and successfully pulled off at any of these already established free, outdoor, public venues; then possibly you’d have a chance of convincing me otherwise (not that I am the one who you need to convince).

The St. Louis public library also has a concert series at OPO Plaza that seems pretty quality and well-attended. There are regularly concerts at OPO Plaza put on by the Partnership for Downtown also, though the ones I've been to have been somewhat sparsely attended. Maybe they aren't well-publicized? The symphony has events at numerous venues scattered about town--last week I went to one in Tower Grove park in the Piper Palm House, there's the big 4th of July one on Art Hill, etc. Most of there events seem to pack a decent crowd. The RFT music showcase works fine on Wash Ave, and last year at least seemed well-attended.

I understand Cordish wants a venue, I'm just questioning whether it is necessary and whether it will be successful (successful defined as actually adding something to downtown/the city rather than a zero-sum move, weakening one part of the city as much as it strengthens another). I am doubtful that people who don't already attend the concerts around town will come to them because they are in BPV, especially since BPV will be largely undeveloped for years and thus less "nice" than the other venues, but maybe Cordish will do a better job advertising and publicizing than other organizations do, and maybe people who aren't interested in coming "downtown" will be interested in coming to "Busch stadium and it's immediate environs."

Could you give any more info on what the P&L venue space is like? How many people does it hold (ie, is it big or small)? When it's not being used for music, is it an open public space, or is it more like a courtyard for the surrounding restaurants/retail/offices/whatever? Were there similar competing spaces in the KC downtown prior to P&L being built?

tbspqr wrote:Recent Cordish developments have covered outdoor stages as their centerpiece… Ballpark Village will be no different. The desire, from parties that be, to get something done creating an unstoppable momentum. This is going to get built. It is going to get TIF. It is going to have several things that are undeniably Cordish (like the stage)...Unfortunately, The best we can hope for from Cordish (or demand from the city) is that Ballpark Village isn’t lacking identity (like KC P&L) … I hope it has some character – something uniquely St. Louis-ish (beyond the Cardinals). St. Louis has so much to offer – it would be a waste and a tragedy to let it go to waste.

I may just be being naive, but the fact that St. Louis has seen a lot of positive development downtown in the absence of BPV makes me feel that the city may have a little more backbone in this development: it's waited this long and can afford to wait a little longer. I'm not sure how much power they have over what is ultimately built but the unimpressed attitude I've heard from most people makes me hopeful that we can push Cordish into doing something that meshes well with the city as a whole, rather than giving them carte blanche over blocks of downtown.

rbeedee wrote: Could you give any more info on what the P&L venue space is like? How many people does it hold (ie, is it big or small)? When it's not being used for music, is it an open public space, or is it more like a courtyard for the surrounding restaurants/retail/offices/whatever? Were there similar competing spaces in the KC downtown prior to P&L being built?

http://www.powerandlightdistrict.com/in ... page=about There is a video at the bottom, the main courtyard area is shown at 0:27-0:28.
Also http://www.checkerkc.com/partydistrictprovider.nxg - the image at the top.
Also - when nearly empty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kansa ... eMay08.jpg

1) The center court yard is surrounded by two story buildings. Both levels are occupied mainly with restaurants, bars, taverns, clubs etc. Most establishments have entrances on the street, but are defiantly oriented toward the center of the complex. The entire center area is covered from rain. Large fans "cool" it in the summer and large radiant heaters warm it in the winter. (neither work well). I can't begin to estimate how many it holds, but i would guess - at absolute capacity it is in the low thousands.
2) Restaurants/Bars on the first level generally have patio seating that overlooks the stage / courtyard area. The upper level has a catwalk that goes around the entire courtyard. Entrances to the upper level bars are gained from here.
3) At one end is a stage - not huge, its of decent enough size for bands to play. Above the stage is a large screen - where they show sporting events etc.
4) The court yard itself is terraced (slightly) toward the stage. There are couches, fountains, decorative fire elements in the winter etc.
5) They never charge for entrance to the main court yard - and thus open to the public until 3 am (bars close). If you were to go there on a random night when there is no concert - you'd see just a few people drinking on the couches or walking around.
6) Outside the main courtyard are nicer sit down restaurants, shops including some upscale (listing can be found on their website). H&R block put in there 17 story world head quarters within the development (picture at http://www.brucewall.com/H_and_R_Block_PIC.html). The whole development is just blocks from the central cluster of high-rises downtown.
7) Downtown KC never had "adult destination" oriented as much St. Louis (bars not Sauget). This development possibly stole patrons from areas like Westport, brookside, some in the Plaza, but nothing really that close was hurt. Downtown has large amount of office, hospitality, and residential on the fringes. Whenever reading about downtown KC, population and offices etc - remember their "downtown" is 3 square miles. Downtown plus Downtown West in STL combined for around 2 square miles.

8 ) This is a controlled situation - stepford style control - it feels strange because all the buildings in the district look identical, streets are strangely clean and uniform. Some say it is bland or suburban... in the last few days I have asked people what their general thought on KC P&L is... and they all like it. I specifically asked people who probably wouldn't go to a place like Washington Ave., and most say they go down at least once in a while.

^Everything you said is confirmation of my worst nightmares for this development.

Not to be offensive towards you, it just the exact opposite of what we need for the space in StL. You said it best, KC didn't have anything like that. StL has had multiple areas like this that formed organically and as a result, they already exist.

We don't need a "Night-life center." IMHO that would suck. Also, to be frank, if it takes two story pre-formed buildings to bring these "people" downtown (that all of you are suggesting this development desparately needs to do), I say F that. StL has momentum. A lot more than it gets credit for, which is extremely impressive considering the economic climate. More and more people are coming downtown every year, and regardless of whether or not it may "feel like a ghost town after 5" today, I say NO to anything described in the above post. If it takes a "suburban feel" to get these "people" into downtown, what is the point? It wouldn't be an urban downtown anymore.

Why do we feel like we have to convince soccer mom and dad and their three kids from Chesterfield to come to the city? If they don't, it's their own damn loss. WE SHOULDN'T CARE! They bring nothing to the table but bodies.


Rant being over, I would more pointedly state that as time goes by, StL will not have to convince people to come to the city with feaux suburban craptastic development. IMO, attempting to do so now will not put the city at an advantage, if anything, it would burden us with an enormous disadvantage 5 years from now when everyone realizes that this is the worst place in the city. It will be so, because its essence will have nothing to do with being part of the city, or even urban at all.

Thanks for the info tbspqr! More to think on...

newstl2020 wrote:^Everything you said is confirmation of my worst nightmares for this development.

Not to be offensive towards you, it just the exact opposite of what we need for the space in StL. You said it best, KC didn't have anything like that. StL has had multiple areas like this that formed organically and as a result, they already exist.

We don't need a "Night-life center." IMHO that would suck. Also, to be frank, if it takes two story pre-formed buildings to bring these "people" downtown (that all of you are suggesting this development desparately needs to do), I say F that. StL has momentum. A lot more than it gets credit for, which is extremely impressive considering the economic climate. More and more people are coming downtown every year, and regardless of whether or not it may "feel like a ghost town after 5" today, I say NO to anything described in the above post. If it takes a "suburban feel" to get these "people" into downtown, what is the point? It wouldn't be an urban downtown anymore.

Why do we feel like we have to convince soccer mom and dad and their three kids from Chesterfield to come to the city? If they don't, it's their own damn loss. WE SHOULDN'T CARE! They bring nothing to the table but bodies.


Rant being over, I would more pointedly state that as time goes by, StL will not have to convince people to come to the city with feaux suburban craptastic development. IMO, attempting to do so now will not put the city at an advantage, if anything, it would burden us with an enormous disadvantage 5 years from now when everyone realizes that this is the worst place in the city. It will be so, because its essence will have nothing to do with being part of the city, or even urban at all.

Amen preacher.

Interesting info on the P&L disrict...I would like to visit...

IMO I think we have tremendous gathering spaces NOW that are only goin to improve...When teh 'Live on the Levee' free concerts moved off of teh riverfront a couple years ago because of flooding, it was staged at Soldiers Memorial...Teh setting was spectacular...Arch, Civil Courts building as a backdrop to the stage and plenty of room for people to gather under stately trees...BPV will not be able to match the shear volume of DT's other gathering spots...

And remember we are about to likely get a beer garden/amphitheater/gathering spot on the WORLD CLASS Arch grounds that is supposed to be DIRECTLY connected to a refurbished Kiener Plaza...and if they improve the Gateway Mall/Soldiers Memorial in conjunction with a new Peabody Opera House/new Central Library/new P Pacific building, that space will be nicer than Bryant Park in NYC IMO...Two gathering premium destinations in addition to the OPO Plaza which is kewl and Union Station...

I don't think Ballpark Village should be all Cardinals, but if it is, it won't fail...

I guess I just don't get how the BPV is so wonderful and even needs to succeed on such a grand scale...We have so much working NOW and so much more coming online (previously mentioned, plus maybe a new movie theater/entertainment near the Dome that when combined with easy access to Lumiere Place makes quite the destination).

IMO we don't need a P&L district here...Class A space near Busch with Cards museum and some things for Cards fans plus residential eventually (and given that Culinaria needs to expand, a grocery store here might make sense)...

I'd rather see more money invested at Union Station to complete the hotel expansion into the arcade area of the space, then a facelift and energy put into the entire project...

^Those are all valid points which are taken into consideration by the city and its residents on a daily basis. My point does not lie within the concerns expressed above.

My concern lies with the notion that it would be necessary and or we would be willing to sacrifice the direction downtown should be going in order to placate a specific group of people in the short term. That is an extremely dangerous way of thinking that does not bode well for the future of our city.

Short term developmental thinking leads to very real and lasting long term consequences when these type of things get built. This site is much too visible for a short-sighted development plan. I am not convinced, and at this point have very little confidence, that the associated parties are capable of realizing this fact.