Any color key to go along with that picture?
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Is it useless to complain about the loss of grid integrity on a site that has no grid currently?
I guess the simple dream of a downtown with a perfect 2-way street grid is just never going to work out.
I guess the simple dream of a downtown with a perfect 2-way street grid is just never going to work out.
Two way streets only result in longer waits at red lights and more dangerous left turns when exiting garages and such. The problem with our downtown is the amount of superblocks that make it difficult to make three right turns and end up in the same place.
Two things need to be clear before I get even a little excited about this manufactured downtown safe-haven for members of "cardinal nation"
I can already see myself getting into a heated debate about this with my boss.
1. The streets need to mesh well with the surrounding blocks. I get the feeling that Walnut will become a back door.
2. City residents need services downtown, and this could be a great opportunity for some new retail (and I don't mean cell phone stores) downtown right next to a Metro stop. I'm hoping this doesn't become a clusterf*** of theme restaurants and piano bars, and I get the feeling that's what they're going for. Are there any retailers that typically build in this type of environment in other cities?
Two things need to be clear before I get even a little excited about this manufactured downtown safe-haven for members of "cardinal nation"
I can already see myself getting into a heated debate about this with my boss.1. The streets need to mesh well with the surrounding blocks. I get the feeling that Walnut will become a back door.
2. City residents need services downtown, and this could be a great opportunity for some new retail (and I don't mean cell phone stores) downtown right next to a Metro stop. I'm hoping this doesn't become a clusterf*** of theme restaurants and piano bars, and I get the feeling that's what they're going for. Are there any retailers that typically build in this type of environment in other cities?
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Original plans called for a grocery store and other amenities for downtown residents, so that's good. But I've also seen what this company, Cordish, did with the Power and Light District in Kansas City. Themes restaurants and piano bars litter the project and it's overall been a failure.urbz wrote:2. City residents need services downtown, and this could be a great opportunity for some new retail (and I don't mean cell phone stores) downtown right next to a Metro stop. I'm hoping this doesn't become a clusterf*** of theme restaurants and piano bars, and I get the feeling that's what they're going for. Are there any retailers that typically build in this type of environment in other cities?
BUT, I don't think St. Louis' downtown is anything like Kansas City's right now. St. Louis' is much more vibrant and has many more residents... and that's sad for KC.
^That's what worries me, and I was wondering if these guys have any connections with retailers that could actually have an impact on living downtown or nearby. This reminds me of the Mills mall going up, and Mills himself saying that St. Louis is "under-malled" 
The Cardinals especially are not paying attention to the rest of the area, and that's a shame.
The Cardinals especially are not paying attention to the rest of the area, and that's a shame.- 66
Having watched the Ballpark Village virtual tour on its website, I think they're going to put a bit more time and effort into finding the right mix of eclectic restaurants and boutiques to make this development something that will truly better St. Louis.urbz wrote:^That's what worries me, and I was wondering if these guys have any connections with retailers that could actually have an impact on living downtown or nearby. This reminds me of the Mills mall going up, and Mills himself saying that St. Louis is "under-malled"
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I anticipate this new 16-story tower going up on the Southwest side of the BPV plots.
Reasoning:
1. Stifel Financial has been recognized as the probable first significant tenant going into the BPV sites. From previous (1+year) mentions of them coming to the area, they were looking at the SW corner for a medium-size tower, and not in the footprint of those tall towers in the renderings. Plus, it'll provide optimum signage opportunities for the ever-growing brokerage.
Or: This is the plot Stifel’s always wanted. I'll credit that KMOV video shot from earlier as site reference.
2. The potential (further) loss of face for the Cards & Cordish by developing only 16-stories on or approximate to the NE corner would be too much for them to risk. Yes, even after all this time. Here, the accountability is not to us, but to the requisite government organizations (city & state) and loss of future opportunities to develop in their markets.
3. No surprise, but we're still in a giant economic swamp. No one's getting lending here. A moderate tower is probably about the best we can do with today's dollars and banking sources.
4. Assuming an economic recovery is an eventuality with enough time, that's when it would be optimal to pursue construction of the NE site towers as per the renderings. Also noting the potential for new businesses to the areas, including the Chinese angle, future needs for office space in Downtown can be met at this site. After all, height’s where they’ll recognize best ROI.
5. Such ROI also will be best capitalized on high-rise residential, and right now the US has NO demand for residential developments, and especially when Downtown StL has potential for a multi-year surplus. Give it a few years, and I see residential going up on the Eastern side of the site.
6. The retail mix as per the Cordish mix isn’t applicable anymore. Downtown already has an upscale bowling alley and (with the new Jive & Wail on Washington now open) two “dueling piano” bars. Plus, ESPN Zones are shutting down all over the place (even in Cordish’s Baltimore). The retail offerings are going to need to be readjusted; hopefully they’ve had enough time to figure this out. Therefore, they’ll have to start off with a medium-sized land spot outside of the main BPV center (the retail hub) as they adjust to market demands.
7. This first tower will prove the viability of the site to other potential tenants, including corporate tenants. Look at Peabody Energy, which just re-upped their lease on Gateway One after wanting to move to BPV. If they can demonstrate success with PBV with (assuming) Stifel, they’ll be in a much better position to develop, especially to out-of-town tenants.
Reasoning:
1. Stifel Financial has been recognized as the probable first significant tenant going into the BPV sites. From previous (1+year) mentions of them coming to the area, they were looking at the SW corner for a medium-size tower, and not in the footprint of those tall towers in the renderings. Plus, it'll provide optimum signage opportunities for the ever-growing brokerage.
Or: This is the plot Stifel’s always wanted. I'll credit that KMOV video shot from earlier as site reference.
2. The potential (further) loss of face for the Cards & Cordish by developing only 16-stories on or approximate to the NE corner would be too much for them to risk. Yes, even after all this time. Here, the accountability is not to us, but to the requisite government organizations (city & state) and loss of future opportunities to develop in their markets.
3. No surprise, but we're still in a giant economic swamp. No one's getting lending here. A moderate tower is probably about the best we can do with today's dollars and banking sources.
4. Assuming an economic recovery is an eventuality with enough time, that's when it would be optimal to pursue construction of the NE site towers as per the renderings. Also noting the potential for new businesses to the areas, including the Chinese angle, future needs for office space in Downtown can be met at this site. After all, height’s where they’ll recognize best ROI.
5. Such ROI also will be best capitalized on high-rise residential, and right now the US has NO demand for residential developments, and especially when Downtown StL has potential for a multi-year surplus. Give it a few years, and I see residential going up on the Eastern side of the site.
6. The retail mix as per the Cordish mix isn’t applicable anymore. Downtown already has an upscale bowling alley and (with the new Jive & Wail on Washington now open) two “dueling piano” bars. Plus, ESPN Zones are shutting down all over the place (even in Cordish’s Baltimore). The retail offerings are going to need to be readjusted; hopefully they’ve had enough time to figure this out. Therefore, they’ll have to start off with a medium-sized land spot outside of the main BPV center (the retail hub) as they adjust to market demands.
7. This first tower will prove the viability of the site to other potential tenants, including corporate tenants. Look at Peabody Energy, which just re-upped their lease on Gateway One after wanting to move to BPV. If they can demonstrate success with PBV with (assuming) Stifel, they’ll be in a much better position to develop, especially to out-of-town tenants.
I start to feel for St Louis when PD's featured columnist believes that an unused softball is a good outcome for its downtown. Sorry, but Bill does little for the region whenever he writes outside of human interest stories and his simplistic mentality can't grasp how far the city has gone in protecting its financial interest in trying to develop BPV during a deep recession.
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Dredger, for the most part Bill's column reflects a lot of what people already have stated here... that if this is just shifting downtown tenants then it really isn't anything to celebrate and the project should be seen as a failure. But I do agree that it wasn't fair to stating that there is a lot of risk on taxpayers, which really isn't the case in this project. btw, under Life Under Bill, there would have been no new Ballpark subsidized by taxpayers and thus no unused softball field as a metaphor for downtown Saint Louis.... as with much of Bill's writings, this comment was not to be taken literally.
A middling office tower with Stifel moving over a few blocks would basically be a bloop single or hit batsman. Getting some new tenants to the city and some complimentary retail would be a nice lead off single. Surpisingly nice architecture might even make it a double, but I'm not too optimistic.
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He needs to post a picture of himself with his tongue planted in his cheek. I'm constantly amazed that there are people who don't get it.Dredger wrote:I start to feel for St Louis when PD's featured columnist believes that an unused softball is a good outcome for its downtown. Sorry, but Bill does little for the region whenever he writes outside of human interest stories and his simplistic mentality can't grasp how far the city has gone in protecting its financial interest in trying to develop BPV during a deep recession.
At least one person gets it.Roger Wyoming wrote:Dredger, for the most part Bill's column reflects a lot of what people already have stated here... that if this is just shifting downtown tenants then it really isn't anything to celebrate and the project should be seen as a failure. But I do agree that it wasn't fair to stating that there is a lot of risk on taxpayers, which really isn't the case in this project. btw, under Life Under Bill, there would have been no new Ballpark subsidized by taxpayers and thus no unused softball field as a metaphor for downtown Saint Louis.... as with much of Bill's writings, this comment was not to be taken literally.
^Didn't he say a few days ago that financing was secure?
^That article is from December 4, 2009. What happened is exactly as Dewitt said in that article.
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The latest figures call for a reduced first phase down to ~$150 million but also now list the total project at $700-800 million. Take it with a shot of salt but the total project figures have increased.
thanksMattnSTL wrote:^That article is from December 4, 2009. What happened is exactly as Dewitt said in that article.
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I've thought about this for a week, and my reaction is the same: meh.
I'll believe there will be progress when I can see it with my own two eyes. I don't hold out much hope for the tenant mix or the building design either.
Hopefully I'll be wrong, and I'll be impressed with the final product. But I've wasted enough bandwidth already talking about this development. And I have my doubts that this project will be transformative, when frankly, I'm more excited about other developments happening north of Market Street.
I'll believe there will be progress when I can see it with my own two eyes. I don't hold out much hope for the tenant mix or the building design either.
Hopefully I'll be wrong, and I'll be impressed with the final product. But I've wasted enough bandwidth already talking about this development. And I have my doubts that this project will be transformative, when frankly, I'm more excited about other developments happening north of Market Street.
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What are the odds that this thread hits 400 pages before construction starts?
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^Likely close to the same as those that were given for 200 and 300.
Hopefully this time it actually happens.
Hopefully this time it actually happens.
A new article is up on the PD website. It sheds a touch more light on the plan moving forward.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... f87c9.html
Stifel Financial is apparently the main tenet, meaning the company moves its Wash. Av./Broadway offices to BPV.
Alderman Wessels said about BPV "It allows the city to retain a growing business that would be leaving if the space wasn't available" and "This will allow them to stay and grow downtown." In theory this makes some sense, but what information supports this claim.
Allen Tomey, a public policy professor at St. Louis U. said "Moving the pieces around in downtown at the public's expense is probably not the best way to go." "However, having said that, having it be an under-used softball park and parking lot, that's not a really good use for that space either."
My take...
Cities need both new and old buildings. To take from the work of Jane Jacobs, we need old buildings for businesses that can't afford the high overhead. We also need new buildings that cater to in those who have needs not met by the older stock. But, these businesses either have to have high profit margins or receive public subsidy. Really, we need to be careful to make sure BPV doesn't kill off these small businesses in the older stock. Some of them will likely have to weather the storm from new interest in new places. The problem is with out a residential component this initial phase, BPV better make sure it has a strong enough draw that it survives and a draw not too large as to destroy all the reinvestment we have already sunk into downtown. All is naught if this happens.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... f87c9.html
Stifel Financial is apparently the main tenet, meaning the company moves its Wash. Av./Broadway offices to BPV.
Alderman Wessels said about BPV "It allows the city to retain a growing business that would be leaving if the space wasn't available" and "This will allow them to stay and grow downtown." In theory this makes some sense, but what information supports this claim.
Allen Tomey, a public policy professor at St. Louis U. said "Moving the pieces around in downtown at the public's expense is probably not the best way to go." "However, having said that, having it be an under-used softball park and parking lot, that's not a really good use for that space either."
My take...
Cities need both new and old buildings. To take from the work of Jane Jacobs, we need old buildings for businesses that can't afford the high overhead. We also need new buildings that cater to in those who have needs not met by the older stock. But, these businesses either have to have high profit margins or receive public subsidy. Really, we need to be careful to make sure BPV doesn't kill off these small businesses in the older stock. Some of them will likely have to weather the storm from new interest in new places. The problem is with out a residential component this initial phase, BPV better make sure it has a strong enough draw that it survives and a draw not too large as to destroy all the reinvestment we have already sunk into downtown. All is naught if this happens.
Seriously? Do we really need another plaza? This is just blocks away from the Gateway Mall, which in turn is just blocks away from the Old Post Office plaza.A plaza for concerts also is part of phase one.
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Here's what i think...throw up some serious, fresh and tall Class A with some outward facing street level retail and just a few bars/restaurants. Trying to make it into some sort of major nightlife district in competition with lacledes landing and wash ave, with internally facing plazas and concert space to boot is absolutely absurd. Power and Light has been hard on existing, local businesses in downtown KC, while "blanding up" the average offering. Please, let's not screw with what we already have going on downtown St. Louis around OPO and Wash Ave, which will be/are much more sustainable models.
Ballpark village as is just stinks of trendy 1990s urban bandaid planning, we need a more classic model of development for this site to augment what is already going on downtown, and not throw some weird vibes into it that are going to have to be extracted at some point.
Ballpark village as is just stinks of trendy 1990s urban bandaid planning, we need a more classic model of development for this site to augment what is already going on downtown, and not throw some weird vibes into it that are going to have to be extracted at some point.
If the plaza Cordish is planning is anything like what they have in KC Power and Light (which I am 90% sure it is) - it is more of a private concert stage than an "urban plaza". Here you have to be 21 to even enter the plaza on Friday and Saturday night, they have their own security and suburban friendly bars / restaurants that have patios looking onto the 'plaza'. The plaza is covered and heated (though the heat isn't effective.)rbeedee wrote:Seriously? Do we really need another plaza? This is just blocks away from the Gateway Mall, which in turn is just blocks away from the Old Post Office plaza.A plaza for concerts also is part of phase one.
I don't like the Power and Light district here, but I will say it does get people downtown that otherwise wouldn't come.
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^The real question is for how long. If the crowds only come for a year or two, it is a collosal disaster.