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PostDec 14, 2010#4626

^I am far from suggesting the city has saintly citizens.

The reaction above is in direct response to what TBSQR (I think) described on the previous page of KC P&L. If they put similar concepts to use in BPV, I think it is doomed from the start. All I mean to emphasize is that I really hope they go back to the drawing board on this one. Everything I have seen and read about recent Cordish developments has me concerned. It doesn't seem as though they have enjoyed much success, esecially 5 years out. Just hoping for a learning curve to be put to work here (and or different people working on this one.)

I should state that the last three posts were probably premature, however, as we really have no idea what we are working with until we see new renderings and plans on the 19th of January. Merely stating that the intial little info we have (LIVE!, etc.) have me concerned about whether or not any learning has taken place. Let's get off the topic of whether or not it will suck until after we see more information.
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PostDec 14, 2010#4627

RobbyD wrote:^Why I suggest the obvious choice of Rawlings being involved...They provide MLB with baseballs and orginated the Gold Glove Award and are founded and based here in the Lou...

I say a desirable Cards HOF plus some type of 'inside baseball' experience with the Rawlings brand on everything...They should make baseballs that are used in the game on-site...Assemble gloves...rotating Cooperstown exhibits...Some type of homage to Sportsman Park and old Busch Stadium...Tributes to MLB mascots with the characters roaming the Village...Lotsa old radio calls playing...Actual set up of first to second basestealing next to L Brock or V Coleman running next to you on a screen...Actual video from a ball hit by M McGwire...Layout actual distances of how far he hit the ball...Have B Gibsons pic surprise and jump out in your face at some point to feel the fear hitters felt...Name the thing after Stan...Teach kids the Gashouse gang antics...

You get the idea...And make it donation only with big bouncers so that everyone who wants to go can go...
I like what you thinking here. I would like it to become THE accessible place in the country that all hardcore and medium core baseball fans everywhere must visit sometime, not just St. Louis fans, the way the Rock & Roll HOF has become THE museum for rock fans everywhere, not just in Cleveland. It would be right in the middle of the country and right next door to a storied franchise. No major city is more identified with baseball than St. Louis. We should call it the National Baseball Experience Museum or something that implies a national attraction. Maybe we could lure MLB Offices to move here officially.
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PostDec 14, 2010#4628

Gary,

What you are describing is located in Cooperstown , NY.
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PostDec 14, 2010#4629

newstl2020 wrote:Everything you said is confirmation of my worst nightmares for this development.
What do people in the County who would visit BPV have? The same thing the City needs: MONEY. If a Chesterfield family of five drives their minivan to a game already, let’s tap their dollars for the City’s coffers, hence BPV. It’s even better when it’s a family from Omaha in for a game, staying at a BPV hotel.

Personally, except for business purposes, I don’t see myself going into BPV for really any reason other than just to look around once or twice. It would be kind of like what the Landing is now to me: a place I choose not to frequent. Between BPV and the Landing, it would be much the same, save for the vomit on the sidewalks having different consistencies (that of Capri Sun & hot dogs versus that of Captain Morgan, a twelve-pack, and shame). Maybe when I have kids, I’ll take them to BPV and enjoy it as a family-friendly place while the majority of Downtown, fun as it is, is not family-friendly. And don’t deny that City Museum is the only family-friendly thing along Wash Ave.

Am I lamenting that there may be six blocks of family fun stuff in the City next to the ballpark? Hell no.
Am I expecting quality office space that’ll draw in money and new businesses? You bet your ass.
Do I plan to go to any theme restaurants there? Not likely, but who knows.
Will these concerts take away from current concerts? Not if competition breeds a healthy market & fuels demand.
Will Cordish be paying for the management of all this? Yes; they do elsewhere.
Is Fourth Street Live in Louisville a fun destination? Yes, not my ideal place, but it is fun & has lots of supporters & crowds.
What else do we have now? A softball field and a parking lot? Is that better?

Look at Times Square. Sure, it’s not as grittily urban as it was before Mayor Giuliani came in and ran out the whores & homeless (are they missed?), and it sure has a lot of company billboards around, but would you call that a horrible loss?
Look at all the capital invested!
Do you think New Yorkers go to Times Square? No!
Does it make a shart-ton of money? You bet your ass!
Is the rest of Manhattan turning Disney? No farking way!
Has the property value gone up there? Like you wouldn’t believe!

Will people visit BPV who otherwise wouldn’t be in Downtown, spending their money? Absolutely.

Is such an opportunity worth developing 6 blocks that I really wouldn’t need to visit otherwise? Yes.
RobbyD wrote:My hunch is that the new office space will be a benefit to the area...Some new constrution is always good to keep options fresh and give he area momentum...And any restaurant/retail will quickly improve Cardinals fan experiences causing them to spend money they would have taken back home...I don't see BPV competing with Benton Park, Soulard or Wash Ave for patrons...It will likely draw new dollars that woulda never been spent in the Downtown area by fans and tourists...
This is the goal of the project: Revenues. That includes both the revenue-building ventures of the retail stores & real estate development, and the projection of Saint Louis nationally as a City with multiple classes of offerings to citizens and visitors alike.

After all, it's not misplaced, benevolent love for Saint Louis that Cordish wants to invest here. It's ROI.

I don’t want this development so I have more options for concerts, or to see Fredbird turned into a schill. I doubt I’d ever even go to a Cardinals Museum; I never went beforehand. What do I want? I want new businesses, new Class A office space, more tourists, and more revenues in the City’s coffers. This project has potential to deliver that. Sure, I’d love to have $800 million to do as I please for development, and a pro sports team off of which to market whatever I do with it. But you know what? I’m a little short and not a MLB owner.

The non-urban & family-friendly can have their 6 blocks. That’s great. I’ll be happy with the rest of the City having more money and ability to grow.

And, purely hypothetical: Should a Ted Drewes stand goes up there, it’ll all be worth it.


... NOW BUILD THE FARKING THING.
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PostDec 14, 2010#4630

sirshankalot wrote:Gary,

What you are describing is located in Cooperstown , NY.
As I said in my previous post on Dec 13,

"How about a Baseball Experience center for all of baseball, and make the Cardinal HOF a subset of it. It could be sort of an accessible Baseball HOF. How many people ever get to visit Cooperstown?"

Cooperstown will still be the HOF in far off updstate NY. This would be to the Cooperstown HOF what the Cleveland Rock & Roll Museum is to Abbey Road studios in England -- an accessible centrally located broad baseball experience museum in a major city right next to a venue where you can actually see a MLB game 81 days of the year.
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PostDec 14, 2010#4631

In my opinion, the most successful development of this sort is Rockefeller Center. It provides a mix of hoakey touristy family attractions like Radio City Music Hall, the Observation Deck, the Christmas Tree lighting, the ice-skating rink, etc... It also is anchored by some strong corporate tenants like GE, NBC, Christies, Simon & Schuster, and includes some upscale retail like Cole Haan, Kenneth Cole, Banana Republic, J. Crew, Anthropologie, and a Museum store for the Met. In the last couple of years they have also started a Rockefeller Center Farmers Market a couple days a week.

Obviously Rockefeller Center sets an extremely high bar for fully planned 6 block developments, and unfortunately, unlike the Rockefellers, the Cardinals' cash-flow has not benefitted from a near monopoly on oil in North America. But Rockefeller Center is worth considering, as a highly successful example of a single 6 block (original 3 full city blocks, turned into 6) development that has withstood the test of time, and become an iconic part of its city.
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PostDec 14, 2010#4632

gary kreie wrote:No major city is more identified with baseball than St. Louis.
I'm quite sure that people in New York, Boston, Chicago, LA (among others) would disagree.

PostDec 14, 2010#4633

gary kreie wrote:
sirshankalot wrote:Gary,

What you are describing is located in Cooperstown , NY.
As I said in my previous post on Dec 13,

"How about a Baseball Experience center for all of baseball, and make the Cardinal HOF a subset of it. It could be sort of an accessible Baseball HOF. How many people ever get to visit Cooperstown?"

Cooperstown will still be the HOF in far off updstate NY. This would be to the Cooperstown HOF what the Cleveland Rock & Roll Museum is to Abbey Road studios in England -- an accessible centrally located broad baseball experience museum in a major city right next to a venue where you can actually see a MLB game 81 days of the year.
No
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PostDec 14, 2010#4634

Gone Corporate wrote:And don’t deny that City Museum is the only family-friendly thing along Wash Ave.
12th street diner is kid friendly.
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PostDec 14, 2010#4635

^ Taken the little one to eat at Wash Ave Post too - oh, and the gelateria...
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PostDec 15, 2010#4636

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
gary kreie wrote:No major city is more identified with baseball than St. Louis.
I'm quite sure that people in New York, Boston, Chicago, LA (among others) would disagree.
When people think of New York, they fisrt think of the Statute of Liberty, skyscrapers, broadway, and times square. Baseball is way down the list. Boston -- universities, 1776, symphony. Chicago -- Sears tower,(or whatever it is called now), Millenium park, Architecture. Baseball is somewhere down the list when it comes to an identity for those cities.

But for St. Louis, baseball is clearly number 2 behind the Arch. In what other city in America is baseball ranked number 2 in the national public's perception of a city? I stand by my carefully worded sentence.
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PostDec 15, 2010#4637

gary kreie wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
gary kreie wrote:No major city is more identified with baseball than St. Louis.
I'm quite sure that people in New York, Boston, Chicago, LA (among others) would disagree.
When people think of New York, they fisrt think of the Statute of Liberty, skyscrapers, broadway, and times square. Baseball is way down the list. Boston -- universities, 1776, symphony. Chicago -- Sears tower,(or whatever it is called now), Millenium park, Architecture. Baseball is somewhere down the list when it comes to an identity for those cities.

But for St. Louis, baseball is clearly number 2 behind the Arch. In what other city in America is baseball ranked number 2 in the national public's perception of a city? I stand by my carefully worded sentence.
How on earth do you know what "people think"? I'd say a lot of people think of the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Cubs first or second. A lot of people probably think of the brewery and the Arch and the zoo ahead of the Cardinals.

I stand by my carefully worded sentence.
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PostDec 15, 2010#4638

Folks, St. Louis and baseball are connected in the national psyche...And in baseball circles, St. Louis is routinely thought to have the BEST fan base in the game...I lived just across the Hudson in Hoboken, NJ when the Red Sox came back and beat the Yanks after the Bronx Bombers were up 3 games to none...The next day in the City, it was like nothing had happened...NYC is so big that not even the Yankees can take over the City's collective conscious like the Redbirds do here...

I love baseball and frankly the Cardinals are apart of the equation for why I live in St. Louis and live downtown...They are not THE reason, but they are part of the reason for me...I think a meaningful and well done Cardinals baseball experience would do well and would gain exposure beyond the Cardinal fan base...Do you guys realize how respected Anheuser Busch and the Cardinals are in the MLB world?

If you pair something Cardinals/BPV, with a rejuvinated Arch experience, with additional Gateway Mall public art, with the City Museum, you have a critical mass of activity that is walkable and desirable and, if you add in changing free music/food/festivals, return-visitable...I believe that at the end of the day, people want to love their City...And if given reasons to, most will...

BPV will be a part of the diversification we need to keep downtown the heart and soul of the region...And frankly, a well thought out BPV with a steadier Cupples station will likely make Busch Stadium one of teh most desirable sporting experiences anywhere inside and outside the stadium...

Now if July would get here so I can be outta these friggin Afghan mountains and in Busch with Bono and the boys and 50k friends...

PostDec 15, 2010#4639

Wabash wrote:In my opinion, the most successful development of this sort is Rockefeller Center. It provides a mix of hoakey touristy family attractions like Radio City Music Hall, the Observation Deck, the Christmas Tree lighting, the ice-skating rink, etc... It also is anchored by some strong corporate tenants like GE, NBC, Christies, Simon & Schuster, and includes some upscale retail like Cole Haan, Kenneth Cole, Banana Republic, J. Crew, Anthropologie, and a Museum store for the Met. In the last couple of years they have also started a Rockefeller Center Farmers Market a couple days a week.
Exactly what came to my mind when I thought of how BPV should work...And if tourist pedestrian traffic is more truly connected and logical downtown after 2015, BPV would be a natural stop as well for the millions of families that make their way to the Arch every year...I also believe pedestrian connectivity is a good reason to remove Wash Ave by the Arch grounds...it seems to me pedestrian flow is like water, it seems to take the path of least resistance...Try walking from the Arch grounds to the Landing today...its a joke...or crossing Memorial Dr......

Well thought out pedestrian connections that are green AND have viable destinations are going to be utilized downtown...Between the Cards, the Arch, and fairs downtown has 6 to 7 million visitors year...wanna bet theyll venture out and walk around even more if given the opportunity...?
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PostDec 15, 2010#4640

RobbyD wrote:Folks, St. Louis and baseball are connected in the national psyche...And in baseball circles, St. Louis is routinely thought to have the BEST fan base in the game...I lived just across the Hudson in Hoboken, NJ when the Red Sox came back and beat the Yanks after the Bronx Bombers were up 3 games to none...The next day in the City, it was like nothing had happened...NYC is so big that not even the Yankees can take over the City's collective conscious like the Redbirds do here...

I love baseball and frankly the Cardinals are apart of the equation for why I live in St. Louis and live downtown...They are not THE reason, but they are part of the reason for me...I think a meaningful and well done Cardinals baseball experience would do well and would gain exposure beyond the Cardinal fan base...Do you guys realize how respected Anheuser Busch and the Cardinals are in the MLB world?

If you pair something Cardinals/BPV, with a rejuvinated Arch experience, with additional Gateway Mall public art, with the City Museum, you have a critical mass of activity that is walkable and desirable and, if you add in changing free music/food/festivals, return-visitable...I believe that at the end of the day, people want to love their City...And if given reasons to, most will...

BPV will be a part of the diversification we need to keep downtown the heart and soul of the region...And frankly, a well thought out BPV with a steadier Cupples station will likely make Busch Stadium one of teh most desirable sporting experiences anywhere inside and outside the stadium...

Now if July would get here so I can be outta these friggin Afghan mountains and in Busch with Bono and the boys and 50k friends...
Good post, but to nitpick... you need a critical mass of activity and people. You may have meant that, so please don't take this as an attack.

One thing this thread seems to have is many people talking about the development of secondary uses. The only way that a downtown remains stable over time is to have primary uses with adjoining secondary uses. I still have not heard much about primary uses in BPV proposals. To me that is concerning.

With the city/state on the hook for TIF funding, I would like them to base the funding contingent upon the rest of the phases including residential units and a mixture of primary use tenets. I am not sure if this is legal, but it should. Really we need to make sure to maximize the funds allocated via the government. Especially, with such large budget shortfalls and the need for funds to support projects in the future.
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PostDec 15, 2010#4641

^ The TIF doesn't take money from the City budget. I guess the city/start are "on the hook", but the developer gets nothing unless they build.
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PostDec 15, 2010#4642

Alex Ihnen wrote:^ The TIF doesn't take money from the City budget. I guess the city/start are "on the hook", but the developer gets nothing unless they build.
About the first part...I understand that. I worded it poorly in hindsight.

For the second part, my contention is if the government is in charge of giving the developer the break, then they should hold them to a higher standard. Too often in these TIF allocations, it seems the government is just so pro-development that they don't think through the implications of poorly to mediocre planned development.

I for one am not pro growth. I am first and foremost an advocate of socio-economic wellbeing. Just because a development means growth, does not mean it adds social benefits nor does it contribute to a stable/strong economy. Thats not to say BPV can't do positive things. I just want to make sure it does, rather than hope it all pans out.
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PostDec 15, 2010#4643

^ Couldn't agree more!
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PostDec 22, 2010#4644

Does anyone know if any of the office space proposed (now or originally) has anything unique besides the fact that its new?

I would think it would be beneficial to create space that catered to certain fields. For example, a building more than enough power for IT firms, etc to try and lure new companies or ones from outside the area.
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PostDec 22, 2010#4645

^Agree...I am no expert in commercial development, lol, but it does seem the momentum of downtown St. Louis paired with a new, unique building office space could snag someone from outside the region...

I read a rumor about Google's quest to build out a new faster fiber optic network headquartered outside of Silicon Valley...and that St. Louis was one of many options the company was looking at...why not propose a brand spanking new LEED certified, tailor-made tower for a tech venture like that...I'm sure its just that easy, right?! lol

PostDec 22, 2010#4646

And maybe its just because I'm such a baseball fan, but if easy access to BPV can be demonstrated, then branding one's company with the St. Louis Cardinals should be very attractive IMO. Busch and the Arch remind me of the energy and attractiveness of Camden Yards in Baltimore. If a company looking for new class-A space can get a good deal with the City, then the added prestige of the Busch Stadium complex should be very enticing.

Again, I'm only speaking from a marketing, public relations perspective not the nuts and bolts/brick and mortar reality of the project...
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PostDec 23, 2010#4647

RobbyD wrote:I read a rumor about Google's quest to build out a new faster fiber optic network headquartered outside of Silicon Valley...and that St. Louis was one of many options the company was looking at...why not propose a brand spanking new LEED certified, tailor-made tower for a tech venture like that...I'm sure its just that easy, right?! lol
I never made the connection before, but seeing you mention Google made me think. Google already uses a large promotional company in St. Louis. They've been working together for a long time in marketing and promotions. Much of their promotional materials are produced in St. Louis and stored in Downtown West. Separately, the company I work for also deals with Google, one of our biggest customers. They could set up shop at Ballpark Village and consolidate in one building. Wishful thinking, but it would be great ad space for Google with their name on a building in center field.
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PostDec 23, 2010#4648

Just for shear speculation, how about adding an architectural feature at the top of BPV office tower that gives you an impression of a square to go along with another St Louis connection, co-founder of Twitter and his new push into payment services.
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PostDec 23, 2010#4649

I'm thinking a Twitter bird somewhere as well to keep that regal St. Louis Cardinal company...

And by the way, Dredger, ANYTHING of architectural significance would be GREAT! The large box with square holes, I've never understood...So much new consrruction in NYC has an almost whimsical feel to it, tasteful, but fun and interesting, sorta like that new parking garage near City Hall...CLearly BPV should have a certain stature and seriousness IMO, but something, ANYTHING that engages the public with art, interest or just something pleasing to look at not only draws attention to ones project, but improves the experience of ones neighborhood too...and isn't THAT the whole point? Adding value? It benefits the individual building/developer/owners and benefits ALL of us in the long run...
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PostDec 24, 2010#4650

I'd take great short architecture over tall ugly towers any day.
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