urbanSTL

markofucity wrote:on the converse ... I heard that Husch is moving from their old clayton digs into Blackwell's downtown office (they merged)

This would be huge. They currently have 80,000 sf in the Laclede Gas Building and 175,000 sf in Clayton.



Husch used to have 85,000 sf in the BofA Tower, so if they were to move back it would offset their original move and almost offset the loss of Armstrong Teasdale - at least from a square footage perspective.

DeBaliviere wrote:

markofucity wrote:on the converse ... I heard that Husch is moving from their old clayton digs into Blackwell's downtown office (they merged)

This would be huge. They currently have 80,000 sf in the Laclede Gas Building and 175,000 sf in Clayton.



Husch used to have 85,000 sf in the BofA Tower, so if they were to move back it would offset their original move and almost offset the loss of Armstrong Teasdale - at least from a square footage perspective.

Is there 175K square feet available in Laclede Gas? I hope this is right but it would seem more likely that the inverse would occur (since so many more employees are in Clayton).

stlbluejay wrote:Is there 175K square feet available in Laclede Gas? I hope this is right but it would seem more likely that the inverse would occur (since so many more employees are in Clayton).

No, there's over 50k available, but the largest contiguous space is just under 10k sf. They'd probably have to go elsewhere.

Moorlander wrote:Roughly $100 mill in phase 1 and likley/possibly many times that in addition phases.

Roughly $100 million in Phase I. OK. But as little confidence as Cordish seems to have in the downtown market, and as risk averse as they seem to be, without the city guarantee of the TIF bonds I have zero confidence that there will be much investment beyond Phase I, as long as Cordish is the developer. I do not foresee "100's of millions of dollars" of investment and nothing even remotely resembling Cordish's renderings.

Moorlander wrote:Will you sleep better tonight if I alter my original statement to say 10s of millions instead of 100's?.

I'll sleep just fine either way, but 10's of millions of investment in Ballpark Village is a huge disappointment for all downtown boosters.



Apparently it isn't obvious to some of you, but the city just lost in it's negotiations with Cordish.

^ Well, we are all just speculating aren't we? Most of us don't know what is or isn't going to get built. And to a certain extent I don't really care what get's built on those 6 blocks because if BPV ends up just mediocre, there are numerous other places (both downtown and across the metro) that will be that much more successful.

There is is just too much speculation and drama here.



I for one will be happy with a three story "Boulevard STL" style parkway with retail and entertainment attractions there at this point. Just build something.



Downtown STL has other great projects and development happening now, built or committed to (i/e Pinnacle/Lumiere Place, Roberts Tower and Old Post Office District, City Garden, and Mercantile Exchange).



Downtown isn't "waiting" for the big "renaissance" to happen with this one project (like KC's P&L district was and hopes to get) - downtown is already resurging.



Just build something and go from there.



Good Grief.

I need to gather my thoughts better in written form, but I can for sure say that a 3 story Boulevard style development is worse than an empty lot in my eyes. Boulevard is good for the suburbs, but I hold certain standards for downtown. My post won't be whiny like some peoples, but 3 stories is a no go for me.

while i don't know exactly what this means for the scale of the development, I do think that the city got a deal in not being on the hook for the bonds.



For reference, look at st. louis centre, as someone has already mentioned.



Also, see the following story, expecting kansas city's development to cost the city $14 million next year.

City officials knew that the Cordish deal was risky. Forecasts showed the Power and Light District producing just enough revenue to cover the bond payments. But those projections may have been optimistic. The Cordish debt will cost the city $14 million in the 2009 fiscal year. Councilwoman Deb Hermann, the chair of the city’s Finance Committee, has said recently that she expects the city will have to reach into the general fund to satisfy the project's creditors.



Sigh.

http://www.pitch.com/2008-02-14/news/drunk-on-power/

Very good point, realclear. Fourteen million a year would be a huge hit for the City of St. Louis. I agree it was smart of them to avoid guaranteing the bonds. Thanks for the link.

matguy70 wrote:There is is just too much speculation and drama here.



I for one will be happy with a three story "Boulevard STL" style parkway with retail and entertainment attractions there at this point. Just build something.

As I have said before, if it were any other parcel of land downtown, I would agree. If we were talking about the block just east of Busch Stadium, I would agree. But the 4 1/2 block area that was supposed to be Ballpark Village is unique, because, since Busch Stadium III was built, it now has greater visibility than any place in St. Louis. It will be the image of St. Louis burned into the memory of millions of Americans, and Ballpark Village will be the only thing in St. Louis, other than the Arch, that millions of Americans know anything about.



If you don't believe me, think of Pittsburgh. The view of downtown Pittsburgh from PNC park is the first image that comes to my mind now when I think of that city, and, accurate or not, that image has greatly changed my opinion of Pittsburgh for the better. Similar things could be said for many other cities that built open-air, downtown sports stadiums like Baltimore, San Diego, Denver, Seattle, and so on.



Moreover, because of that visibility and its location, St. Louis has an opportunity to create a high-density, upscale, mixed-use development on those 4 1/2 blocks that might otherwise not be possible anywhere else in the region. There are national retailers and upscale hotel chains, as well as national and local visibility-seeking companies, that would be interested in locating in a well-designed, properly-marketed Ballpark Village, that would otherwise never have any interest in downtown St. Louis, or anywhere in the region for that matter. There is also an opportunity to develop at least one upscale, high-rise residential tower, and at least one high-rise office tower, on this site, of a scale that we otherwise might not see downtown in the next couple of decades, if ever.



Of course, this has all been said many times before. The problem however - and they will never admit it - is that Cordish clearly no longer believes such things are feasible, if they ever did. If that type of project is no longer viable, it is only because those national retailers, potential office tenants, hotel and residential developers, and most importantly, the banks, no longer have faith that Cordish can deliver such a project. That may be because they feel that Cordish simply has too many irons in the fire, or their reputation is finally catching up with them, i.e. too many half-assed projects and unkept promises around the country.



Whatever the reason, I no longer believe Cordish is capable of delivering a project that realizes Ballpark Village's full potential. I had hoped that the city would be able to negotiate a development agreement that would tie any subsidy to a clear commitment and timeline from Cordish for a project that realized that full potential, even if that timeline was 20 years, but it is clear that they cannot get any type of commitment from Cordish. The city can't even get Cordish to commit to a single residential unit, or anything more than 100,000sf of office space, on any timeline, without backing the TIF bonds (which I wholeheartedly agree they should not). That is pathetic.



Even though the city will get a black eye during the All-Star Game from a Ballpark Village site with no construction activity - frankly, that ship has sailed anyway - I would much rather they say "No Deal!", force the Cardinals to clean up the site, and then wait until the Cardinals can find a competent developer. That would be a far superior option to covering the site with a half-assed collection of two-story retail buildings, and suburban-style, mid-rise parking garages and office buildings, which would effectively destroy the potential of the site.

The delays and concerns over whether Ballpark Village would get built is a big reason we have firms looking west to Clayton for new office space and no commitments to move to the Ballpark Village. Now that we have a proposed mutual agreement between the city, the Cardinals, and the Cordish Co., hopefully Thompson Coburn and other firms looking towards Clayton will seriously consider Ballpark Village. If we can get Stifel and Thompson Coburn to move to Ballpark Village, that would be over 300,000 sq feet to anchor a new office tower. Anyone hearing any rumors of companies considering the Ballpark Village, now that there is more confidence this will get built? I think the next couple of weeks and months will be interesting to see who considers the Ballpark Village…..

Some may not know exactly what defines Class A Office space, to include myself, so here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_A_office_space

innov8ion wrote:

jlblues wrote:

matguy70 wrote:There is is just too much speculation and drama here.



I for one will be happy with a three story "Boulevard STL" style parkway with retail and entertainment attractions there at this point. Just build something.

Of course, this has all been said many times before. The problem however - and they will never admit it - is that Cordish clearly no longer believes such things are feasible, if they ever did. If that type of project is no longer viable, it is only because those national retailers, potential office tenants, hotel and residential developers, and most importantly, the banks, no longer have faith that Cordish can deliver such a project. That may be because they feel that Cordish simply has too many irons in the fire, or their reputation is finally catching up with them, i.e. too many half-assed projects and unkept promises around the country.



Whatever the reason, I no longer believe Cordish is capable of delivering a project that realizes Ballpark Village's full potential.

I think it fair to suggest that it is far more likely that broadly-known market forces are what have shaped this tentative agreement. Granted, you dislike Cordish. But many don't share your opinion.



I just hope that the plan will take future expansion into account.

Future expansion? From what I've heard the Kiel garages were built with future expansion in mind and can be built upon to add a tower. Maybe they mean expansion really far in the future though, huh?

^ What I mean is, build what is in scope and design it in such a way that space is left for future expansion while not making the space look empty. I believe we all know it's simply not economically feasible to build in one phase what many on this forum desire. That is a reality individuals will have to come to terms with -- or not if they so choose.



Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but in my utopian world, this is how it would work.

I cannot believe they aren't going to include residential in Phase I. This is a project that transcends market forces because it simply cannot be duplicated in St. Louis.



Think about the corporations, the athletes, and then the general population who would love to buy residences looking into the stadium of one of the top franchises in professional sports. If they don't feel there is a market for for-sale units then go with upscale apartments.



I wonder if they have even attempted to market a residential portion to see what the response would be. A typical market analysis may not be appropriate because I don't think it would capture the value of living at Busch Stadium.

Look at the success the ballpark lofts are having. The sold out in minutes, not hours... How is that not a good indicator of the market. There is another reason.

Another reason like what? do you think there's some sort of conspiracy at work

^ nope! I'm not sure that Cordish believes the residential tower units won't sell. I tend to think that maybe Cordish has determined that commercial space will bring them a higher return. And maybe that's all that matters to them.

Does Cordish earn a return on this project? I thought they were just paid to build it. Do they own a percentage?

My understanding is that they alwasy take an ownership interest int heir projects. I believe they will have an ownership share witht he cardinals.

^Yes, Cordish would own the buildings (except for maybe the Cardinals Museum - or the Cards might lease that back, dunno), be responsible for property management, leasing, maintaining the common area, security, etc., but lease the land from the Cardinals.



Cordish would also arrange financing, get proceeds from the sale of the TIF bonds, pay all consulting fees and construction costs, and probably get a development fee from the Cardinals. The Cardinals would probably be guaranteed some percentage of the project revenue in addition to the lease payments and a scaled percentage of profits. At least that is the way these deals usually work.





Details coming tomorrow...*yawn*

A revised deal for Ballpark Village likely will be announced Wednesday.



Bill DeWitt III, president of the St. Louis Cardinals, said today that the team and co-developers Cordish Co., based in Baltimore will issue a press release tomorrow detailing the terms of a new development agreement for the long-delayed Ballpark Village. He would not reveal details.

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