urbanSTL

I think DeWitt was trying to say that IF he didn't think a deal could get done THEN they would have already brought the land to grade and made it a nice grassy lot. But because he thinks it will get done, they haven't spent money to fill in the site that would be wasted once they actually do develop the site.



The issue is not whether he now has plans to build a park, but whether the City would let any other property owner keep their property in that condition while they finalized the deal.

^Except that DeWitt III keeps saying that he is "hopeful" a deal will get done, not that he thinks it will get done, or ever says what it will take to get a deal done.



By saying that he is "hopeful", it implies that whether or not a deal gets done is out of his hands, which is a not-so-subtle way of saying that it is all the city's fault. Most of us are "hopeful" that a deal will get done, even though it seems less and less likely at this point, but, unlike DeWitt, we don't have any ability to make sure it does, nor have we any information whatsoever as to why it hasn't.

Friday, July 11, 2008

City, Cordish near Ballpark Village dealSt. Louis Business Journal - by Christopher Tritto and Lisa brown





After more than a year of delays, Ballpark Village developers and St. Louis city officials said they expect to finalize a development agreement for the vacant site next to Busch Stadium within the next couple weeks.



"We're at the point where we're either going to get it done or not going to get it done," said Jeff Rainford, Mayor Francis Slay's chief of staff.



Plans still call for a $650 million multi-phased, mixed-use development similar to that proposed before Centene Corp. announced last September it would purchase a portion of the site and build a new headquarters there, according to Rainford and Cardinals President Bill DeWitt III.



That deal fell through in March when Centene opted to build instead in Clayton. Earlier plans for the first phase of Ballpark Village included at least 100,000 square feet of office space and 270,000 square feet of entertainment and retail space.



Talks that cooled for a few months amid setbacks and delays heated up again during the past six weeks, and all parties are back at the table. This time they have help -- they've brought in a go-between.



"The negotiations always have been -- to be kind -- tough on both sides," Rainford said. "We needed a fresh perspective." He and DeWitt declined to name who was helping.



Tension has grown particularly between the city and Baltimore-based Cordish Co., the Cardinals' development partner. DeWitt also has been frustrated by delays but said the ballclub's relationship with Cordish remains strong.



"It has been difficult with a couple of false starts and negotiations that create some deal fatigue," DeWitt said. "But they have been with us all the way and will be with us going forward. They are the right developer at the right time for us."



A major difference in the revised agreement is that Cordish wants to eliminate the residential component from its $387 million first phase of construction and save it for a later date when market conditions improve. Citing tight credit markets and a battered housing market, DeWitt said a new condominium tower does not make sense right now.



Cordish officials have always been careful to call the housing market in downtown St. Louis an emerging one, noting that no new residential high-rise projects have been built downtown in decades. In an April 18, 2006, memo to city officials, Cordish Director of Finance Jason Epstein said that the final project would change to meet evolving market conditions.



Slay has long pushed for condominiums or apartments as part of the plan, but is now willing to give Cordish more flexibility.



"We want it to get done," Rainford said. "Given where the state of the national economy is, it could be a shot in the arm for St. Louis. This will create jobs and new retail, and the city could use new tax revenue. We're all at the point of do it or don't."



As for the remaining office, entertainment, retail and restaurant components, DeWitt said a mix of tenants already are lined up to occupy more than half the planned space.



He declined to name prospective tenants, but a year ago, several major law firms scouting for more than 100,000 square feet of office space in the region put Ballpark Village among their top options. Those firms included Polsinelli Shalton Flanigan Suelthaus, Thompson Coburn and Armstrong Teasdale. The Cardinals are represented by Armstrong Teasdale, and one of its lawyers, Fred Hanser, is the Cardinals' vice chairman and a co-owner of the ballclub with general partner Bill DeWitt Jr.



DeWitt also pointed to Cordish's $800 million Power and Light District project, which opened in downtown Kansas City earlier this year, for a flavor of the types of tenants Ballpark Village could feature. The Power and Light tenants include Gordon Biersch Brewery, Cosentino's Downtown Gourmet Market, Lucky Strike Lanes, Bristol Seafood Grill, a Miami-style nightclub called Mosaic, an AMC movie theater, Chipotle Mexican Grill, Famous Dave's Barbecue, Angels Rock Bar, ChefBurger, Flying Saucer Draught Emporium, Fuego bar and restaurant, Howl at the Moon dueling piano bar, Living Room bar, Maker's Mark Bourbon House & Lounge, McFadden's Sports Saloon, PBR Big Sky country and western bar, Ted's Montana Grill, Raglan Road Irish pub and restaurant, Tengo Sed Cantina, Vinino Wine Bar & Bistro and a Sprint Nextel store. A Jos. A. Bank men's clothing store, a live music theater, a GNC vitamin store and smoothie bar, additional restaurants, a coffee house, a dry cleaners and a nail salon also are expected to open soon.



If an agreement can be reached during the next couple of weeks, Cordish would still need to have the changes approved by city and state officials who authorize public assistance. Previously approved public subsidy included approximately $115 million in various forms. As before, the city would not put up any money for the project, though it would let Cordish keep some of the new tax revenue their project would create.









http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/ ... MORE HERE

DeWitt also pointed to Cordish's $800 million Power and Light District project, which opened in downtown Kansas City earlier this year, for a flavor of the types of tenants Ballpark Village could feature.

Oh great.

^ No kidding! I hate to comment on something I've not seen with my own eyes, but I'm not really excited by what's been build in KC.

City, Cordish near Ballpark Village deal

St. Louis Business Journal

by Christopher Tritto and Lisa brown



After more than a year of delays, Ballpark Village developers and St. Louis city officials said they expect to finalize a development agreement for the vacant site next to Busch Stadium within the next couple weeks.



"We're at the point where we're either going to get it done or not going to get it done," said Jeff Rainford, Mayor Francis Slay's chief of staff.

And you guys think we write biased headlines.

"We're at the point where we're either going to get it done or not going to get it done," said Jeff Rainford, Mayor Francis Slay's chief of staff.

I like those odds.

Well if the deal falls through again, then they need to divide the land up and sell it to developers. I mean what the hell are these guys talking about? The weak real estate market is not going to have any effect on how ballpark condos sell. Chances are only wealthy individuals will be able to afford those panoramic views and there are a lot of rich die hard Cards fans from around the metro and country who would leap at the opportunity to get one of those units. We could have more than one condo tower and they would all be sold out before they could be built. Look at how the ballpark lofts are selling, are they saying a residential tower with an entertainment venue underneath wouldn't do at least as well? What a bunch of jackasses, I hate how Cordish and other Big Box developers are jumping in on the market after a bunch of local and smaller developers have done the real gritty work to revive downtown, this makes me more pissed then Schnucks getting TIFs to put City Grocers out of business.

A major difference in the revised agreement is that Cordish wants to eliminate the residential component from its $387 million first phase of construction and save it for a later date when market conditions improve. Citing tight credit markets and a battered housing market, DeWitt said a new condominium tower does not make sense right now.

Translation: We will be able to charge a much higher premium on residential units after we get all of the free advertising from the All-Star game and after the retail is open.

DeBaliviere wrote:

"We're at the point where we're either going to get it done or not going to get it done," said Jeff Rainford, Mayor Francis Slay's chief of staff.

I like those odds.

Me too. What's that slogan that's been on Missouri license plates for the last 30 years? Like good ol' Congressman Vandiver, you've got to show me. Until someone shows me actual progress, I refuse to believe a bloody word of what I read or hear about this project. The Cardinals have essentially betrayed the community, and Cordish is a complete joke. The city isn't entirely blameless, I'm sure, but I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of trying to negotiate with Cardinals and Cordish based on what I've gleaned so far about this tedious and aggravating process.



I don't want to draw too many conclusions about the Power & Light District as I haven't been to Kansas City since the project's completion. However, based on the list of tenants in the posted article, I must say I'm very underwhelmed. Most of these places are cheesy themed restaurants that could be part of any other project (Mercantile Exchange? Lumiere Place Phase II? The Bottle District? A rejuvenated Union Station?). And Cordish is trying to eliminate the one thing that makes sense here (highrise housing?). Since Cordish is apparently so difficult to work with anyway, it seems like the Cardinals should've insisted upon a new direction. Instead, when the nation's eyes are focused on St. Louis for the All-Star Game next summer, we'll either have a mudhole or a glorified lifestyle center partially under construction.



I'll try to contain my excitement.

ThreeOneFour wrote:Most of these places are cheesy themed restaurants that could be part of any other project (Mercantile Exchange? Lumiere Place Phase II? The Bottle District? A rejuvenated Union Station?).

Union Station East, that's all it is, at least as far as the retail tenant mix goes. Nothing that is going to "save" downtown.



Build us some new Class A space and lure a tenant or two from the burbs (or preferably from outside of the region), and I'll be pretty excited.

bonwich wrote:

City, Cordish near Ballpark Village deal

St. Louis Business Journal

by Christopher Tritto and Lisa brown



After more than a year of delays, Ballpark Village developers and St. Louis city officials said they expect to finalize a development agreement for the vacant site next to Busch Stadium within the next couple weeks.



"We're at the point where we're either going to get it done or not going to get it done," said Jeff Rainford, Mayor Francis Slay's chief of staff.

And you guys think we write biased headlines.

I guess it's just enough of a challenge for the STLBJ guys to write headlines to match all of those press releases.



DeBaliviere, I agree with you about the value of luring at least one major corporate tenant to Ballpark Village. Frankly, I would've liked to have seen highrise housing, (a) major corporate tenant(s), and then a focus on retail. While I realize the significant constraints of the market as it stands today, I'd prefer retail as the last piece of the puzzle instead of the first. Instead, we're left with another half-hearted "retail" effort that will purportedly "save" downtown, which may only jeopardize the long-term viability of businesses and projects that have actually helped to save downtown over the last 5-7 years.



I wish St. Louis could've thrown all this money, time, and energy into Mercantile Exchange instead. Pyramid's implosion would've led to delays and worries about project completion as well, but to me this is the one of the many big-ticket projects in downtown that could actually be viable and a compliment to surrounding businesses instead of a zero-sum detriment.

Quote:

DeWitt also pointed to Cordish's $800 million Power and Light District project, which opened in downtown Kansas City earlier this year, for a flavor of the types of tenants Ballpark Village could feature.





Oh great. Rolling Eyes

^ No kidding! I hate to comment on something I've not seen with my own eyes, but I'm not really excited by what's been build in KC. Rolling Eyes

If you haven't been to KC's power and light district, I wouldn't complain about it. Every "lay" person I have met who has been there (except for the urbanists on this forum) have RAVED about P&L. Although I question its ability to stand the test of time, and it is possible that P&L may suffer a union station type demise, it seems that BPV is going to be a much different development --mainly in that the Village won't be a nearly enclosed donut. Hopefully individual parts of BPV can be redeveloped if its popularity wanes. I don't know if I can say the same for P&L.



As for the chain restaurants, you have to admit they are a pretty good mix, and most of those on the list would be unique to the STL area. Although I could do without Howl at the Moon, it's not like they are suggesting an Applebees or a Longhorn.



It may not be built in the manner that this forum would like, but it is a project that has ALL of KC buzzing. More importantly it has piqued the interest of suburbanites who would NEVER go to the city prior to the construction of the development. As a result, everyone is talking about how great Downtown Kansas City is doing (and KC has a fraction of the institutions that we do).



It is most likely that STL will be the same way. Tons of people from festus to florissant, o'fallon (mo) to o'fallon (IL) will visit the BPV and be amazed at how "new" and "clean" and "fun" and "safe" it is. Some of them will have had no desire to live in the city, but many of their attitudes will change once they see this huge development. At least that has been my observation of the people in kansas city.



In the end, even if some districts in KC (Westport particularly) have seen a drop in business, those areas are between a 10-20 minute drive away. The immediate surrounding area is benefiting tremendously from P&L, and I think we can expect the same in STL.



Chain stores and all, this is what we need to get the second wave of development rolling in Saint Louis.

^

Good points and perspective.

I hope this goes through.



But I'll admit I'm a little skeptical.

realclear wrote:It is most likely that STL will be the same way. Tons of people from festus to florissant, o'fallon (mo) to o'fallon (IL) will visit the BPV and be amazed at how "new" and "clean" and "fun" and "safe" it is. Some of them will have had no desire to live in the city, but many of their attitudes will change once they see this huge development. At least that has been my observation of the people in kansas city.

I know it shouldn't be, but that's just depressing.





Question: If it were an either/or proposition (which I realize it is not - not completely, anyway), would you rather create a development which causes:



A) "people from Festus to Florissant, O'Fallon (MO) to O'Fallon (IL)" to "be amazed at how "new" and "clean" and "fun" and "safe"" the city is



OR



2) people from Minneapolis to Austin, Raleigh to Portland, Greenwich Village to Wicker Park, or more specifically, the young, urban, future-professional or entrepreneur, i.e. the creative class, which has helped such cities become recognized as fast-growing, high-energy, urban-lifestyle meccas, to be amazed at how fun, exciting, cutting-edge, and urban St. Louis is:?:



To me this is the fundamental question that should determine how all large, new developments in the city and inner-ring suburbs are planned, designed, and incented. But in the case of Ballpark Village, the either/or contrast seems to be especially stark. Ballpark Village cannot attract both types, and I think St. Louis stands to benefit much more in the long-term from the latter since, if you attract the latter, the former's opinions about the city will eventually change. The opposite, however, is much, much less certain.

^ you're right. It's not an either/or proposition.



The point is we have tons of young people here NOW that live in the burbs. The low hanging fruit is to change their perspective and get them to move into the city. As their perspectives change, the regions perspectives will change, and we will begin creating the atmosphere that will lure more of the creative class from around the country.



Ultimately, until we get our young urban professional entrepreneur types to start living in the city, we won't be able to get others to do so. I think it is easier to convince someone to move 30 miles than 1000 miles, and I hope that BPV will be one step towards accomplishing this goal.



Once again, I go back to my (albeit limited) experience with Power and Light in Kansas City. We on this forum have pretty similar views as to what we expect in urban development, but the normal person does not. The average Joe in KC loves the P&L, and P&L is a primary reason that more people who lived in other parts of town are now moving downtown. This migration is creating a more lively urban atmosphere.



Further, of those I know who are not from Kansas City but have been to the P&L, they have loved it as well. So maybe the reaction of non-St. Louisans will be similar once BPV is up and running. Too bad it won't be for the All Star game, which would have been a great time to shine.



Anyway, I guess it all comes down to Cordish's developments in other cities. Do they impress people from out of town? Are they unique? Or do they all have pretty much the same hodgepodge of chain bars and restaurants?



If they are unique, it will be one more step towards becoming an austin or portland. If the developments are pretty much the same in each city, BPV will simply be a local draw, like a mall.



I haven't been to any other developments besides the one in KC, so I don't know the answer to that.



Regardless though, the first step towards becoming a more lively urban environment is by getting people who live in the metro area to choose to live in the city.

"We're at the point where we're either going to get it done or not going to get it done," said Jeff Rainford, Mayor Francis Slay's chief of staff.

I AM TOTALLY MAKING THIS INTO A T-SHIRT!!! "Ballpark Village: It's either going to get done, or not going to get done! Welcome to Saint Louis"



This is my new life motto.... It's structure can be used for practically anything:

-"I am at the point where I am either going to get up and go to work, or not going to get up and go to work..."

-... I am either going to drive my car off the road or not drive my car off the road

-... I am either going to eat this bagel or not eat this bagel.

-...I am either going to take a shower or not take a shower.....



The list is endless.

Magnatron wrote:

"We're at the point where we're either going to get it done or not going to get it done," said Jeff Rainford, Mayor Francis Slay's chief of staff.

I AM TOTALLY MAKING THIS INTO A T-SHIRT!!! "Ballpark Village: It's either going to get done, or not going to get done! Welcome to Saint Louis"



This is my new life motto.... It's structure can be used for practically anything:

-"I am at the point where I am either going to get up and go to work, or not going to get up and go to work..."

-... I am either going to drive my car off the road or not drive my car off the road

-... I am either going to eat this bagel or not eat this bagel.

-...I am either going to take a shower or not take a shower.....



The list is endless.

That comment irked me too. It also is quite inconsistent w/ the title of the article, stating that the deal is close. He should have said--we are either going to get the deal done w/ Cordish this week or bring in a developer that will get it done.

realclear wrote:The point is we have tons of young people here NOW that live in the burbs. The low hanging fruit is to change their perspective and get them to move into the city. As their perspectives change, the regions perspectives will change, and we will begin creating the atmosphere that will lure more of the creative class from around the country.

Sorry, but Festus, Florissant, and the O'Fallons don't exactly scream "creative class" to me.



Working class, maybe.



And that is exactly my point. The vast majority of people that grew up in that environment are never going to be enticed to come into the city, and you certainly aren't going to be able to convince many of them that urban living is for them. Sure, if you build a super-sized Al Hrabosky's type entertainment zone with a couple of office buildings in it, you might be able to get them to linger a bit longer after a Cardinals or Rams game, but they aren't going to be buying condos or lofts, or suits, shoes, books, groceries, wine, etc., or sitting down to a nice $50/person dinner, in downtown St. Louis, which I sort of thought was the whole point of this development.

realclear wrote:Ultimately, until we get our young urban professional entrepreneur types to start living in the city, we won't be able to get others to do so. I think it is easier to convince someone to move 30 miles than 1000 miles, and I hope that BPV will be one step towards accomplishing this goal.

Our "young urban professional entrepreneur types" don't live in the areas you mentioned. They leave for cities like Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, Boston, New York, the Bay Area, and smaller growth cities like the ones I mentioned. We attract some of them back, and some from other cities, by offering the kinds of jobs and lifestyle which brought them to those cities in the first place. Most of the ones that we do attract are already living in the city, or at least in the inner-ring burbs. If they are living in Chesterfield, then again, they probably aren't the kind of people that are going to be interested in living in an urban environment anyway.



How does the St. Louis region grow if we are just trying to attract people from the exurbs into the city?

realclear wrote:The average Joe in KC loves the P&L, and P&L is a primary reason that more people who lived in other parts of town are now moving downtown.

I doubt that very much. People are moving to downtown KC because of all of the renovated buildings, new lofts, new restaurants, new nightlife, etc. that has been created over the last 5 years or so, not because of the P&L District. Crimony, its only been open a couple of months. In any case, average Joes are sheep. They'll go any place that's popular with their set, for a while, then they'll move onto the next thing. First carjacking in the news in Ballpark Village, and they'll never come back...

realclear wrote:Anyway, I guess it all comes down to Cordish's developments in other cities. Do they impress people from out of town? Are they unique? Or do they all have pretty much the same hodgepodge of chain bars and restaurants? - Yes, I thought that was pretty obvious.



If they are unique, it will be one more step towards becoming an austin or portland. If the developments are pretty much the same in each city, BPV will simply be a local draw, like a mall.



I haven't been to any other developments besides the one in KC, so I don't know the answer to that.

I've been to about half a dozen, but you don't need to visit them to know that they are all the same. Just look at the Cordish website. Other than the Power Plant in Baltimore, there isn't anything even remotely unique about any of them.

jlblues wrote:And that is exactly my point. The vast majority of people that grew up in that environment are never going to be enticed to come into the city, and you certainly aren't going to be able to convince many of them that urban living is for them. Sure, if you build a super-sized Al Hrabosky's type entertainment zone with a couple of office buildings in it, you might be able to get them to linger a bit longer after a Cardinals or Rams game, but they aren't going to be buying condos or lofts, or suits, shoes, books, groceries, wine, etc., or sitting down to a nice $50/person dinner, in downtown St. Louis, which I sort of thought was the whole point of this development.



Our "young urban professional entrepreneur types" don't live in the areas you mentioned. They leave for cities like Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, Boston, New York, the Bay Area, and smaller growth cities like the ones I mentioned. We attract some of them back, and some from other cities, by offering the kinds of jobs and lifestyle which brought them to those cities in the first place. Most of the ones that we do attract are already living in the city, or at least in the inner-ring burbs. If they are living in Chesterfield, then again, they probably aren't the kind of people that are going to be interested in living in an urban environment anyway.



How does the St. Louis region grow if we are just trying to attract people from the exurbs into the city?



In any case, average Joes are sheep. They'll go any place that's popular with their set, for a while, then they'll move onto the next thing. First carjacking in the news in Ballpark Village, and they'll never come back...

I think realclear made some good points about the Power & Light District in Kansas City, but you've summed up all of my issues with the concept of Ballpark Village quite well.

Just got back from KC. I was only there for a day on business, so I did not have much time to walk around the P&L or enjoy any of the restaurants, but I did walk around it and check out one of their free concerts on Wednesday. The H&R Block HQ is beautiful - a very cool oval-shaped building. The Sprint Center and Basketball experience is also a very cool setup.



But other than that, it really has the feel of a large food court with one chain restaurant after another. While I like cool onion-themed (rings, towers, bloomin', etc...) appetizers as much as the next guy, it really did not do a whole lot for me. Not much retail (other than a Sprint store) and no real office or residential space that I saw right in the area of new development.



They did have one cool setup where in the middle of one of the blocks of restaurants, there is a theater-type area that is covered with a translucent fabric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kans ... eMay08.jpg) and all the restaurants around there open up to the theater. This is where they have free concerts twice a week.



Talking to people that work downtown, KC is pretty pumped and proud of this district. It's really spurring redevelopment downtown and you can see much more redevelopment over the last 2 years downtown. So while it may not be perfect, it seems to be doing what the purpose was - bring people downtown because it was packed Wednesday night for a free concert. I do wonder what the long-=term viability of this will be because they don;t even have the 81 sellouts to bolster that district and those restaurants are going to have to sell a lot of cheesesticks to pay the rent.



I think we could do worse than this type of development and anything would be better than the hole.

But other than that, it really has the feel of a large food court

Was there for the Cards KC series and I agree completely.