^Actually, now that they have cut the weeds, picked up the trash, and drained the pond, it really looks like it belongs in the desert, or on the Moon.
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When is the Power and Light district in Kansas City supposed to be totally complete? I suspect nothing will happen at Ballpark Village until the Cordish people finish in KC and move over to St. Louis.
Power and Light is supposed to be finished by the beginning of 2009. However, that is looking less and less likely. The retail block is now mostly physically complete, but tenant finish hasn't started yet, nor have any new retail tenants been announced. The bar and restaurant blocks are mostly complete, with nearly all of the spots open or nearing completion, with the exception of a few high profile 
spaces that have not seen tenant announcements yets.
The two theaters, AMC's flagship Mainstreet theater in the old restored Empire and the restored Midland are set to open this fall, which will essentially finish everything up but the retail block. The grocery store and associated garage and service retail are set to open this fall as well, and appear to be on track. Despite the delays, P&L has been everything promised and then some with regard to jump starting downtown in every conceivable way. Look for BPV to do the same. Another interesting thing happening here that may occur in StL post BPV is the closing of mediocre bars in the area, and some public blame placed on Cordish etc. for shutting down local bars. The only thing not mentioned is that in many if not all of these cases the bars in questioned sucked horribly, and have been repleaced by higher quality 'generic' sports bars in P&L, such as McFadden's, etc. In a way it's a good thing, pruning DT of the sh*tty bars I've always avoided anyway.
I'm actually in StL right now, about to embark on a major CWE/DT/South City bike ride, and I look forward to making my usual progress report, downtown especially. Should be fun down there with Cubs/Cards going on right now
The city and Cordish WILL get BPV done, and it will most likely be as vibrant as promised. The All-Star game is a major disappointment though, and for that Cordish does deserve a lot of heat.
spaces that have not seen tenant announcements yets.The two theaters, AMC's flagship Mainstreet theater in the old restored Empire and the restored Midland are set to open this fall, which will essentially finish everything up but the retail block. The grocery store and associated garage and service retail are set to open this fall as well, and appear to be on track. Despite the delays, P&L has been everything promised and then some with regard to jump starting downtown in every conceivable way. Look for BPV to do the same. Another interesting thing happening here that may occur in StL post BPV is the closing of mediocre bars in the area, and some public blame placed on Cordish etc. for shutting down local bars. The only thing not mentioned is that in many if not all of these cases the bars in questioned sucked horribly, and have been repleaced by higher quality 'generic' sports bars in P&L, such as McFadden's, etc. In a way it's a good thing, pruning DT of the sh*tty bars I've always avoided anyway.
I'm actually in StL right now, about to embark on a major CWE/DT/South City bike ride, and I look forward to making my usual progress report, downtown especially. Should be fun down there with Cubs/Cards going on right now
The city and Cordish WILL get BPV done, and it will most likely be as vibrant as promised. The All-Star game is a major disappointment though, and for that Cordish does deserve a lot of heat.So, IOW, all the bars with character will be replaced by bars with lots of manufactured flair and faux nostalgia.rxlexi wrote:Another interesting thing happening here that may occur in StL post BPV is the closing of mediocre bars in the area, and some public blame placed on Cordish etc. for shutting down local bars. The only thing not mentioned is that in many if not all of these cases the bars in questioned sucked horribly, and have been repleaced by higher quality 'generic' sports bars in P&L, such as McFadden's, etc. In a way it's a good thing, pruning DT of the sh*tty bars I've always avoided anyway
Goodbye Beale on Broadway, BB's, Broadway Oyster Bar, Caleco's, Harry's, Maggie O'Brien's, Dapper Dan's, Jack Patrick's, and Missouri Bar and Grille. Goodbye $2 beers.
Hello Bennigan's, Rock Bottom Brewery, Yard House, Red Star Tavern, Jillian's, D i c k's Last Resort, Elephant & Castle, Coyote Ugly, Margaritaville, and >insert generic Southwestern-themed-sounding-name here< Mexican Grill and Cantina. Hello $7 beers and $10 "specials".
In the last two months I've had the opportunity to visit Kansas City and Louisville KY and their respective Cordish developments: "Power and Light District" and "4th Street Live!"
All I can say is that I'm torn. Part of both developments excited me by seeing tons of people filling recent/new construction projects, most likely from the suburbs and out of town, spending a lot of money in urban environments. But the soulless chain restaurants and bars were generic and could have been any city.
All I can say is that I'm torn. Part of both developments excited me by seeing tons of people filling recent/new construction projects, most likely from the suburbs and out of town, spending a lot of money in urban environments. But the soulless chain restaurants and bars were generic and could have been any city.
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jlblues wrote:So, IOW, all the bars with character will be replaced by bars with lots of manufactured flair and faux nostalgia.rxlexi wrote:Another interesting thing happening here that may occur in StL post BPV is the closing of mediocre bars in the area, and some public blame placed on Cordish etc. for shutting down local bars. The only thing not mentioned is that in many if not all of these cases the bars in questioned sucked horribly, and have been repleaced by higher quality 'generic' sports bars in P&L, such as McFadden's, etc. In a way it's a good thing, pruning DT of the sh*tty bars I've always avoided anyway
Goodbye Beale on Broadway, BB's, Broadway Oyster Bar, Caleco's, Harry's, Maggie O'Brien's, Dapper Dan's, Jack Patrick's, and Missouri Bar and Grille. Goodbye $2 beers.
Hello Bennigan's, Rock Bottom Brewery, Yard House, Red Star Tavern, Jillian's, D i c k's Last Resort, Elephant & Castle, Coyote Ugly, Margaritaville, and >insert generic Southwestern-themed-sounding-name here< Mexican Grill and Cantina. Hello $7 beers and $10 "specials".
Pretty much. I think that is a foregone conclusion.
I hope they don't try a theater in the BPV mix. That would kill any hope left on the Kiehl Opera house.
I still going to harp on Class A Office or condo tower as a must for long term vitality. Anything to get a stable increase in workers or residential for DT. Otherwise, someone is going to loose out after the novelty wears off.
I still going to harp on Class A Office or condo tower as a must for long term vitality. Anything to get a stable increase in workers or residential for DT. Otherwise, someone is going to loose out after the novelty wears off.
No way this thing would cause BB's or Oyster Bar to close. If they were going to close because of financial problems I think it would have happend by now. I've been going down there for years on week nights with bands playing in front of 5-10 people. I don't know as much about Beale but those three have a pretty good handle on the blues scene downtown, especially BB's. In my limited 10 year run of frequenting these places, it's been a lot of the same folks that are there week in and out- and they don't seem to be the kind of people to be hanging out at Coyote Ugly or Howl at the Moon. Until these generic bar in a box venues start booking national blues acts, offer regular spots for local bands, and begin hosting open jams on week nights, I think they're safe. The big threat would be stealing game day traffic- but again with their niche in live music booking and so much parking south of the stadium I would say that is unlikely as well.
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Blzhrpmd2 wrote:No way this thing would cause BB's or Oyster Bar to close. If they were going to close because of financial problems I think it would have happend by now. I've been going down there for years on week nights with bands playing in front of 5-10 people. I don't know as much about Beale but those three have a pretty good handle on the blues scene downtown, especially BB's. In my limited 10 year run of frequenting these places, it's been a lot of the same folks that are there week in and out- and they don't seem to be the kind of people to be hanging out at Coyote Ugly or Howl at the Moon. Until these generic bar in a box venues start booking national blues acts, offer regular spots for local bands, and begin hosting open jams on week nights, I think they're safe. The big threat would be stealing game day traffic- but again with their niche in live music booking and so much parking south of the stadium I would say that is unlikely as well.
I agree. BB's & The Oyster Bar have a pretty discerning clientele, and will not be affected.
What I took from the post is that we shouldn't expect bars similar BB's & The Oyster Bar to be a part of BPV. What we'll get is cookie cutter, "safe" sports bars and restaurants like Friday's and ESPNzone.
Exactly, but you don't seem to realize how razor-thin the margins are in the bar business. As you pointed out, they clearly aren't raking it in by being a live music venue. Game-day traffic may not account for the majority of the people through the door, but it is more profitable, and I guarantee you that that traffic is the only thing that has kept some of these venues open.Blzhrpmd2 wrote:No way this thing would cause BB's or Oyster Bar to close. If they were going to close because of financial problems I think it would have happend by now. I've been going down there for years on week nights with bands playing in front of 5-10 people. I don't know as much about Beale but those three have a pretty good handle on the blues scene downtown, especially BB's. In my limited 10 year run of frequenting these places, it's been a lot of the same folks that are there week in and out- and they don't seem to be the kind of people to be hanging out at Coyote Ugly or Howl at the Moon. Until these generic bar in a box venues start booking national blues acts, offer regular spots for local bands, and begin hosting open jams on week nights, I think they're safe. The big threat would be stealing game day traffic- but again with their niche in live music booking and so much parking south of the stadium I would say that is unlikely as well.
A loss of just a tiny fraction of game-day traffic, combined with a loss of lunch traffic and destination tourist traffic on non game-days, could very likely mean the difference between being able to pay the bills, and not, for many of these places. The real question should be whether or not the local places will see any increase in revenue from local and tourist passerby traffic because of Ballpark Village, and whether or not any increase will be enough to offset these losses. If the history of other such projects in other cities is any indicator, I would be very worried if I owned one of those bars.
what I wanted to imply in my post was not that a place like BBs or the Oyster bar would face imminent demise, but that the more generic bars that have survived downtown in large part because they've had the market to themselves, rather than based on their unique qualities, clientele, etc. may be in danger. In KC, this has meant the demise of places like Tanner's and Paddy O'Quigley's...area chain sports bars known for...well, not much except bad service and (until now) relatively convenient location for downtowners. We aren't talking classic places with a distinct flair or devout following like BB's here...DT KC has a variety of similar, popular local places that are doing just fine. It's the places that have never had a whole lot to offer, and now find themselves in the midst of major competition that does the same thing better, that should be worried.
On a side note I had a great bike trip thru StL...I'll whip up a trip report here some time...but DT was looking good, Wash Ave. in particular. Each trip through I notice something new, in this case the Wash Ave. Apts with the (b&t?) pizza place on the first floor. Great rehab of an early modern building and late night pizza slices DT? very nice.
On a side note I had a great bike trip thru StL...I'll whip up a trip report here some time...but DT was looking good, Wash Ave. in particular. Each trip through I notice something new, in this case the Wash Ave. Apts with the (b&t?) pizza place on the first floor. Great rehab of an early modern building and late night pizza slices DT? very nice.
So far. KCP&L District hasn't even been open a year.rxlexi wrote:DT KC has a variety of similar, popular local places that are doing just fine.
Besides, no offense, but downtown KC has never seen the kind of tourist and local suburban/exurban traffic that downtown St. Louis does. Until very recently, the only people in downtown KC were those there by necessity, i.e. those that lived and worked there, so bars subsisted on local, primarily urban, traffic. The KCP&L District will draw much more new traffic downtown in KC than Ballpark Village ever will here.
Again, in both cities, there is no question that the Cordish developments will take some fraction of the local traffic, but the profitability of local bars in downtown St. Louis depends on some combination of local and non-local traffic. Therefore, local downtown KC bars have much more to gain, and much less to lose, than their counterparts in St. Louis.
You have to look at similar downtown projects around the country that have been open a few years.
i'm currently in the baltimore airport, and just spent the past three hours downtown, checking out their recent redevelopment of the harbor. I believe cordish was the main developer. (power plant live)
It did seem a bit manufactured with chain restaurants and retail outlets:
hooters, touristy seafood/food court, street vendors, filene's basement, best buy, espn zone, etc.) and obviously those restaurants and locations could be in any city. However, it did seem very "baltimore". With the setting on the harbor and a very seemless integration to downtown, the area really did seem to work. And for proof, it was PACKED with people. In fact, we were trying to figure out a place to go hang out for a few hours before a flight, and our friend from NYC studying in Bmore recommended that district.
The district really did seem to be the place to go. I think it works because when people visit a city:
1.) They like centrality. A destination to go to get all the information they need. Bmore's city info is conveniently at the harbor, where all the tourists would go. they dont care if "oh my god, there's a restaurant just like Jim's Seafood in my city"....i think they care "let's get seafood, i wonder where we could go that's around here"....instead of researching and taking all this time to figure out a decent bite to eat 15 minutes away by car and 45 mins by public transportation.
2.) It's the most obvious place to go.
Think about it. Think about a tourist who doesn't know anything about st. louis or anyone arriving into town. Where will they go first? My bet would be the arch. After the arch, where would they go?
Not everyone is an urban enthusiast seeking the most nitty gritty urban experience when they visit cities. A lot of times its where they can spend quality time with their friends and families, that's easy and convenient.
It did seem a bit manufactured with chain restaurants and retail outlets:
hooters, touristy seafood/food court, street vendors, filene's basement, best buy, espn zone, etc.) and obviously those restaurants and locations could be in any city. However, it did seem very "baltimore". With the setting on the harbor and a very seemless integration to downtown, the area really did seem to work. And for proof, it was PACKED with people. In fact, we were trying to figure out a place to go hang out for a few hours before a flight, and our friend from NYC studying in Bmore recommended that district.
The district really did seem to be the place to go. I think it works because when people visit a city:
1.) They like centrality. A destination to go to get all the information they need. Bmore's city info is conveniently at the harbor, where all the tourists would go. they dont care if "oh my god, there's a restaurant just like Jim's Seafood in my city"....i think they care "let's get seafood, i wonder where we could go that's around here"....instead of researching and taking all this time to figure out a decent bite to eat 15 minutes away by car and 45 mins by public transportation.
2.) It's the most obvious place to go.
Think about it. Think about a tourist who doesn't know anything about st. louis or anyone arriving into town. Where will they go first? My bet would be the arch. After the arch, where would they go?
Not everyone is an urban enthusiast seeking the most nitty gritty urban experience when they visit cities. A lot of times its where they can spend quality time with their friends and families, that's easy and convenient.
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Dredger wrote:I hope they don't try a theater in the BPV mix. That would kill any hope left on the Kiehl Opera house.
I still going to harp on Class A Office or condo tower as a must for long term vitality. Anything to get a stable increase in workers or residential for DT. Otherwise, someone is going to loose out after the novelty wears off.
I agree totally with the Class A and residential requirement. 81 home games will bring plenty of traffic...I am concerned about the period from November through March. I would much rather see this project approached from a neighborhood/business component rather than a tourist attraction and post game hang out.
phoaddict wrote:
Think about it. Think about a tourist who doesn't know anything about st. louis or anyone arriving into town. Where will they go first? My bet would be the arch. After the arch, where would they go?
Not everyone is an urban enthusiast seeking the most nitty gritty urban experience when they visit cities. A lot of times its where they can spend quality time with their friends and families, that's easy and convenient.
That's a very true point. And with that said, I will welcome an ESPN Zone with open arms. ESPN is like a religion for many people, plus ESPN Zone's are just downright cool places to be.
Umm, Washington Avenue? The Old Post Office District? Laclede's Landing? Eventually, the Mercantile Exchange? And, someday again, hopefully, Union Station?phoaddict wrote:Think about it. Think about a tourist who doesn't know anything about st. louis or anyone arriving into town. Where will they go first? My bet would be the arch. After the arch, where would they go?
Not everyone is an urban enthusiast seeking the most nitty gritty urban experience when they visit cities. A lot of times its where they can spend quality time with their friends and families, that's easy and convenient.
But no, we should give incentives to one developer to build a brand new district in a concentration of brand new buildings to house destination shopping and entertainment retail, and then design that district to contain and maximize retail revenue opportunities within the borders of their property, the rest of downtown be damned, when we have many empty storefronts in existing historic buildings and many empty lots within our existing entertainment districts. Does that make any sense?
Making a brand new entertainment and shopping retail district on the south side of downtown will only decrease the attractiveness of Washington Avenue, MX, and the OPO District to national retailers.
And you can't compare Ballpark Village and Baltimore's Inner Harbor. Those are completely different situations in completely different settings. Inner Harbor developments utilized many existing historic buildings and challenging harborfront property that would otherwise have had no use. The Ballpark Village property is one of the most valuable pieces of property in St. Louis and you wouldn't find many easier properties on which to build.
jlblues wrote:Umm, Washington Avenue? The Old Post Office District? Laclede's Landing?phoaddict wrote:Think about it. Think about a tourist who doesn't know anything about st. louis or anyone arriving into town. Where will they go first? My bet would be the arch. After the arch, where would they go?
Not everyone is an urban enthusiast seeking the most nitty gritty urban experience when they visit cities. A lot of times its where they can spend quality time with their friends and families, that's easy and convenient.
What is in the OPO district? "District"? And I wouldn't send a tourist to Laclede's Landing if I wanted to make a good impression. The last groups of out of towners that went there with me thought it was pretty disgusting. There's a giant parking lot in the middle of it! And still-abandoned buildings. And other than for dining -- what would a tourist get out of Washington Ave.? I'm not saying I don't like some of these places -- I'm among them every day -- but they are not any place a tourist would really enjoy, IMO.
^OK. Now ask yourself, "What will be different about Ballpark Village that will make tourists that have no interest in any of those places that I mentioned want to go there?"
Shouldn't we be making BPV for us? and not for tourists??!! Perhaps if we focus more on ourselves, our region will become stronger and more unified and will garner more respect from the world...thus...more tourists. Don't make BPV a tourist attraction...all it needs to be is residential and larger office towers. Restaurants, bars, and retails welcome but no tourist traps. Let BPV be for St. Louis citizens...let's build it FOR US!!!!!
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Shimmy wrote:
That's a very true point. And with that said, I will welcome an ESPN Zone with open arms. ESPN is like a religion for many people, plus ESPN Zone's are just downright cool places to be.
I went to the espn zone in chicago back in november. I thought it totally sucked. And I like sports, A LOT!
^I won't say it sucks, but once you've been in an ESPNZone, there really isn't much reason to go back...unless you really have some great need to watch 10 different sporting events at the same time.
I suppose it is good for expats of other cities to have a place where they can go have a beer and be pretty much guaranteed they'll be able to watch their favorite team, but I'm not sure that is a good long-term business model, and there are other ways of seeing your team's games.
I suppose it is good for expats of other cities to have a place where they can go have a beer and be pretty much guaranteed they'll be able to watch their favorite team, but I'm not sure that is a good long-term business model, and there are other ways of seeing your team's games.
jlblues wrote:Umm, Washington Avenue? The Old Post Office District? Laclede's Landing? Eventually, the Mercantile Exchange? And, someday again, hopefully, Union Station?phoaddict wrote:Think about it. Think about a tourist who doesn't know anything about st. louis or anyone arriving into town. Where will they go first? My bet would be the arch. After the arch, where would they go?
Not everyone is an urban enthusiast seeking the most nitty gritty urban experience when they visit cities. A lot of times its where they can spend quality time with their friends and families, that's easy and convenient.
But no, we should give incentives to one developer to build a brand new district in a concentration of brand new buildings to house destination shopping and entertainment retail, and then design that district to contain and maximize retail revenue opportunities within the borders of their property, the rest of downtown be damned, when we have many empty storefronts in existing historic buildings and many empty lots within our existing entertainment districts. Does that make any sense?
.
i get the point about not being able to compare given that this is a ground up project. However, the point i get from you is that we minimize the amount of retail in BPV to help other locations downtown like wash ave? ...So, more "half-assed" areas just spread out?
I think wash ave/ lacledes landing/ bpv are for completely different crowds, much like in other cities. Wash ave SHOULD be the trendy night life and club/ bar district. Lacledes landing is the touristy bars and casinos. and bpv is a touristy centralized hangout place for families and tourists, and suburban visitors.
We don't really have appropriate places for the latter in downtown apart from the arch.
From what i've seen in other successful cities, people like an area designated for one thing and the proximity of being able to walk from one experience to the other. Let's check out shopping district. Let's check out the restaurant district. Let's check out the club and bar district (like adam's morgan in DC). If i hang out in wicker park for the night, chances are i'm not going anywhere else. I want to walk from one bar to the next right next door to each other.
I don't think it's logical think as bpv as a cannibal district. i think it will serve as a district that we are lacking in -- a MODERN family oriented centralized tourist destination (that also caters to dt residents and workers).
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Ok, maybe ESPNZONE didn't suck, but it wasn't on par with what I would have expected.
I think you're on to something here!
denlp02 wrote:Shouldn't we be making BPV for us? and not for tourists??!! Perhaps if we focus more on ourselves, our region will become stronger and more unified and will garner more respect from the world...thus...more tourists. Don't make BPV a tourist attraction...all it needs to be is residential and larger office towers. Restaurants, bars, and retails welcome but no tourist traps. Let BPV be for St. Louis citizens...let's build it FOR US!!!!!
I think you're on to something here!
BPV will be a tourist district, though with any luck it will add a substantial amount of Class A office or residential condos/apts. It is right across the street from one of the metro's largest draws, for god's sake, and a company like Cordish wouldn't be coming in to build a massive district across from Busch Stadium if it was simply to be adding some new office space and a few convenient sports bars, Cards HOF, etc.
That said, as I re-analyze DT StL and jlblues' comments, I see his point and one of the potential problems there that DT KC does not suffer from: DT StL already has tried building tourist driven bar and nightlife districts, and BPV will certainly canibalize from the Landing, and most likely from Union Station and Wash Ave. to some degree. It will most likely bring a level of security, flash and concentration that is currently percieved as unavailable DT to many suburbanites, and it's proximity to Busch, and thus folks that have already parked and are out of their cars, will also be a huge factor.
Wash Ave. is building a different, more residential base of users and businesses that cater to natives more than a place like BPV will, and Union Station will probably remain a more family friendly option (though it needs some major updating), but I could certainly see the Landing taking a hit. Again, if BPV is anything like P&L here, it has the potential to become one of the new 'it' spots among local suburbanites and tourists alike, drawing people downtown on the Cards off-days and filling up to the brim come game time. It is an interesting dynamic in a DT that has been largely rebuilt with a tourist trade in mind, and one I hadn't really thought of - how will the big budget Cordish development fit into the overall scheme of large DT StL projects?[/i]
That said, as I re-analyze DT StL and jlblues' comments, I see his point and one of the potential problems there that DT KC does not suffer from: DT StL already has tried building tourist driven bar and nightlife districts, and BPV will certainly canibalize from the Landing, and most likely from Union Station and Wash Ave. to some degree. It will most likely bring a level of security, flash and concentration that is currently percieved as unavailable DT to many suburbanites, and it's proximity to Busch, and thus folks that have already parked and are out of their cars, will also be a huge factor.
Wash Ave. is building a different, more residential base of users and businesses that cater to natives more than a place like BPV will, and Union Station will probably remain a more family friendly option (though it needs some major updating), but I could certainly see the Landing taking a hit. Again, if BPV is anything like P&L here, it has the potential to become one of the new 'it' spots among local suburbanites and tourists alike, drawing people downtown on the Cards off-days and filling up to the brim come game time. It is an interesting dynamic in a DT that has been largely rebuilt with a tourist trade in mind, and one I hadn't really thought of - how will the big budget Cordish development fit into the overall scheme of large DT StL projects?[/i]