Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

little egyptian · PostMar 12, 2008#29512008-03-12T04:18+00:00

Why is everyone getting upset with this? Look, first, the mayor is a politician. Politicians, well, let's say ... shade the truth. We don't actually know what is going on. We have more questions, but that does not mean it is time to abandon ship.

But, in the alternative, even if it is time to abandon ship on BPV, all is not lost. That land is far more valuable selling to someone else than in being paved over for a parking lot - even the seemingly inept Cardinals ownership will realize this. Let the Cardinals pay the fines, condemn the land and take it over or force the Cardinals to sell, use the Cardinal's fines as direct development subsidy dollars for a couple high rise buildings at that location.

It is not like we are going to have a pond and parking lot at that location with those views for eternity. The Cardinals are dragging their feet horribly on the project, so maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to just take their penalty (or negotiate the sale w/o penalties) and move on to a different developer.

I still think Cordish and the Cards are planning on developing this eventually, and I still think there is a better than 80% chance that is what will happen, but if it isn't, it is not the end of the world. Luckily, this location can basically sell itself. It is one of the few locations in the whole city that can do that, so it is sort of fortunate because even an inept owner can't keep this site a parking lot forever.

migueltejada · PostMar 12, 2008#29522008-03-12T05:28+00:00

Little Egyptian wrote:We don't actually know what is going on. We have more questions, but that does not mean it is time to abandon ship.

That land is far more valuable selling to someone else than in being paved over for a parking lot - even the seemingly inept Cardinals ownership will realize this. Let the Cardinals pay the fines, condemn the land and take it over or force the Cardinals to sell, use the Cardinal's fines as direct development subsidy dollars for a couple high rise buildings at that location.

It is not like we are going to have a pond and parking lot at that location with those views for eternity.

Luckily, this location can basically sell itself. It is one of the few locations in the whole city that can do that, so it is sort of fortunate because even an inept owner can't keep this site a parking lot forever.

Couldn't disagree with you more -

A paved parking lot, at that size, with that proximity, at say, $20 a car, over the course of 81 games (plus events and generaly day parking) would generate on the order of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Upkeep is minimal, taxes minute, since the improved value of the land is practically nil, and demand for parking in that location is high (basically eliminates the cupples garage and all the ad-hoc parking under the highway).

Again, in the current market, the land is more valuable as vacant land to speculators than it is as a developable property. In 5 years, maybe it'll be worth something vertical, but right now it's not. Look, if the parking lot across from Macy's couldn't be developed - and that's a small lot RIGHT in the heart of the CBD - then what chance does a site 10x the size of that one have on the fringe?

No, the site won't remain vacant forever, but darn close. A site of similar size and scale here in melbourne sat vacant for 20 YEARS waiting for a developer. An old disused brewery site just north of the CBD, between north Melbourne residential, the University, and Carlton retail/residential only just got finalized this week to get something in there after 5 or six other proposals that fizzled for various reasons.

A direct development subsidy? Wow - why not just build it themselves then? Even I can't justify the direct subsidy of developers on that kind of magnitude. But in any case, if the Cardinals own the lot and are making HUGE bank on it year after year with little incentive to sell, they're going to keep it that way until the city eminent domains the land - which may not be allowed now if MO has gone the way of other states and reduced eminent domain rules.

jmedwick · PostMar 12, 2008#29532008-03-12T12:23+00:00

Look, if the parking lot across from Macy's couldn't be developed - and that's a small lot RIGHT in the heart of the CBD - then what chance does a site 10x the size of that one have on the fringe?

Sure you want to use that as your comparable?

Macy's (May) has owned that lot for a long time and sat on it. They weren't going to sell it off with the HQ across the street. It was their insurance policy in case they ran out of space in the RR Exchange building or needed more parking.

As for the Ballpark Village, I am slightly concerned, but listening to the audio I think Slay's comments were all part of the game. His comments basically fell into two categories:

A. Not certain of a positive outcome

B. Something good for downtown will happen and he still trusts Dewitt

I am sure the City and Centene and the Cardinals/ Cordish are still going around in circle negotiating this thing out and based on all we have heard thus far and seen from Cordish, it would not surprise me one bit if they weren't holding things up and therefore the Mayor felt it necessary to play a bit of hardball with public comments designed to throw public pressure on Cordish/ the Cardinals to get this moving.

migueltejada · PostMar 12, 2008#29542008-03-12T12:26+00:00

^ everyone keeps proving my point!

newstl2020 · PostMar 12, 2008#29552008-03-12T14:02+00:00

^DUMB. I'm sorry, but regardless of what certain individuals are attempting to state, this land will not become a surface parking lot. The real-estate market is not doing well right now, but does anyone think there is great chance the market will remain in the toilet for 20+ years? I for one, do not believe so. Remember, the only thing that Centene has to do with BPV or the Cardinals is in the contract of their plot of land. Centene isn't linked to BPV, and so, like Matt stated above, I believe we will see plenty of action on their front.

Calm down. (And I think that Macy's example was fairly horrible. Can anyone say "different dynamics?")

realclear · PostMar 12, 2008#29562008-03-12T15:17+00:00

i tried to listen to the Collateral Damage interview and was unable to do so...has anyone else had any problems? How did you access the file?

thewayofthearch · PostMar 12, 2008#29572008-03-12T16:09+00:00

I used itunes.

I think there is a lot of overreaction here.

The Cardinals and the city want this. Sounded like Slay was placing the blame on Cordish, but also on the complexity of the deal. What with the P&L in KC coming online, I'm not surprised their focus is elsewhere.

rickc · PostMar 12, 2008#29582008-03-12T16:35+00:00

realclear wrote:i tried to listen to the Collateral Damage interview and was unable to do so...has anyone else had any problems? How did you access the file?

The link to the radio stream is a PLS (Shoutcast Playlist). If you are using Windows Media Player you will need to install a fix in order to play the stream. Here's the link http://tools.veloc-it.com/tabid/58/grm2 ... fault.aspx

arch city · PostMar 12, 2008#29592008-03-12T17:45+00:00

I too think there is some overreaction to interview with Slay.

What I heard from Slay was cautious optimism. He can't be too optimistic, but he wasn't negative either. Slay echoed what I have been saying here:

1. It is a large project ($650-million), which ultimately means complicated financing.

2. There are many players (the city, the Cardinals, Cordish, the state, Bowling Hall of Fame, U.S. Equities and Centene). Having so many players complicates the situation, I'm sure.

It seems like progress is happening though. If a project this large had only two players, then I believe construction would have started by now, but because of the enormity of the project and the amount of stakeholders it's stressed a little. Also, the credit crunch probably isn't helping.

stlbluejay · PostMar 12, 2008#29602008-03-12T18:27+00:00

Arch City wrote:I too think there is some overreaction to interview with Slay.

What I heard from Slay was cautious optimism. He can't be too optimistic, but he wasn't negative either. Slay echoed what I have been saying here:

1. It is a large project ($650-million), which ultimately means complicated financing.

2. There are many players (the city, the Cardinals, Cordish, the state, Bowling Hall of Fame, U.S. Equities and Centene). Having so many players complicates the situation, I'm sure.

It seems like progress is happening though. If a project this large had only two players, then I believe construction would have started by now, but because of the enormity of the project and the amount of stakeholders it's stressed a little. Also, the credit crunch probably isn't helping.

I agree. I am currently taking a commercial real estate class at law school. The time it takes just to plan and develop a residential community is astounding. And those typically only involve 3 parties--owner, developer, municipality.

There are so many issues involved in something like this. I just wish that the City or Cordish or Cards would communicate a little better. For example, what eactly needs to be done from the financing point of view? How close are we? Where are we exactly in the entire process?

jlblues · PostMar 12, 2008#29612008-03-12T18:43+00:00

^Depending on how far you are into your class, you should also know that deals like this collapse all the time, no matter how much the various parties have invested in it. Sometimes it is the complexity of the deal, other times it is something as simple as the personalities of those involved. This is far from a done deal, which I think Mayor Slay expressed quite clearly (I believe those were his exact words), despite his stated "optimism". He presumably has more inside knowledge than anyone on this forum.

I don't believe it would be the end of the world if Cordish were replaced as developer, in fact, I think we might get a much better overall development out of it in the end. But it would mean probably at least another 2 year delay before construction could proceed. Moreover, the Centene project may be a separate deal, but I suspect it is contingent on a certain guaranteed level of development of the rest of Ballpark Village, as I'm sure they wouldn't want their nice, shiny new office tower surrounded by a weed-filled gravel pit. At the very least, the deal with Centene would have to be renegotiated should Cordish walk away or be replaced, and in the meantime Centene's financial situation could change, or they might simply change their mind.

Arch City wrote:It seems like progress is happening though.

It does? Based upon what? I haven't seen or heard anything that would indicate they are much closer to a deal than they were at the time of the Centene announcement. Just a guess, but I suspect there is a major stumbling block of some sort, possibly between Centene and Cordish/Cards, that we aren't being told about, and which is only being exacerbated by the ever-decreasing rate of return on the project. Edit: Or, it could simply be that market conditions have made the project no longer viable as previously negotiated, and Cordish is now attempting to renegotiate the amount of their investment versus the incentives offered.

brickandmortar · PostMar 12, 2008#29622008-03-12T19:13+00:00

Every time I look at this thread lately it reminds me of the stages of grief...

* Denial (they won't build Ballpark Village)

* Anger (Why won't they build it already?)<----we are here

* Bargaining (maybe we can just live with Centene)

* Depression (screw it, this is St. Louis, what's new)

* Acceptance (Well that Applebees they built is better than a hole in the ground)

newstl2020 · PostMar 12, 2008#29632008-03-12T19:23+00:00

Jesus christ even if this is st. louis (why is this a negative again?) MARKET FORCES will untilmately cause the development of this piece of land. Can we please stop with the parking lot and applebee's remarks? (not singling you out ^. Just happened to read it last.) Until we hear any differently, IE change of developer, Centene backing out, project cancelled, NOTHING NEW HAS HAPPENED YET. We all expected an increased delay after the addition of Centene (at least I hope we all did), and until anything new is stated not too many people here have any real idea what is going on.

Sorry to rant, it just seems to be getting a bit out of hand around here the past 2 days. Or keep speculating. Whatever I'm not a mod.

PEACE,

Newstl

jlblues · PostMar 12, 2008#29642008-03-12T19:27+00:00

^^:lol: I would suggest some are already on Stage Four, moving into Stage Five.

rickc · PostMar 13, 2008#29652008-03-13T13:14+00:00

It looks like things are really heating up with Centene and the BPV deal. Stage Four - depression mode might be just around the corner!

New Doubts About Bringing Centene to Ballpark Village

Kevin Killeen Reporting

ST. LOUIS (KMOX News) -- KMOX News has learned that the deal establishing the main tenant for the Cardinals' Ballpark Village downtown may no longer be a sure thing.

Clayton-based healthcare management company Centene Corporation announced last September that it was moving its headquarters to the Village project, after its efforts at securing land through eminent domain for an expansion near its present campus was defeated in court.

But now St. Louis Director of Development Barbara Geisman concedes that the Centene deal "will either happen or not happen in the next couple of weeks. "

http://www.kmox.com/New-Doubts-About-Br ... ll/1818444

metzgda · PostMar 13, 2008#29662008-03-13T13:35+00:00

^ Now if Centene backs out, that would be the nail in the coffin. By far that was the most exciting part of this proposal. This would definately hurt the cities chances of getting businesses to relocate downtown.

Now, on a good note. It seems at least one law firm has signed an agreement to relocate to Ballpark Village. This makes it sound as if it's seperate from Centene's office development and maybe part of the development proposed by Cordish. From Joe Whittingtons column in the post...

LEGAL PSLs: If the buzz in commercial real estate circles becomes a reality, the law firm of Polsinelli Shalton Flanigan Suelthaus could be selling personal seating licenses for office space.

Word is the firm, headquartered in Kansas City and with offices in Chicago, Washington, Clayton and St. Louis, has an agreement to relocate to the proposed Ballpark Village.

The brokers say the new building with office space of 90,000 to 100,000 square feet would be used to consolidate the 100 lawyers and support staff now in the Pierre Laclede Center in Clayton and the Deloitte Building downtown.

They say the site will be in what is known as Block 300, centered east and west along the south side of the proposed development, "with excellent views into the ballpark."

"We don't have a lease yet, and we are considering our options," said partner Jay Dobbs, who is on the board of directors. "That is one of our options."

The same sources say the law firm of Lewis Rice & Fingersh is staying on base, at least for 18 months, after long consideration of leaving 500 North Broadway.

"Their deal to stay long-term was predicated on the owner selling the building, and there's a legal tangle over the title," said a source.

"We are still in negotiations," said partner Tom Erb, who is heading up the search.

MattnSTL · PostMar 13, 2008#29672008-03-13T14:35+00:00

Publiceye, would it be possible to get a little clarification of what the problem is here?

Centene was the part of the project that I didn't have a lot of concern with.

threeonefour · PostMar 13, 2008#29682008-03-13T14:47+00:00

rickC wrote:It looks like things are really heating up with Centene and the BPV deal. Stage Four - depression mode might be just around the corner!

New Doubts About Bringing Centene to Ballpark Village

Kevin Killeen Reporting

ST. LOUIS (KMOX News) -- KMOX News has learned that the deal establishing the main tenant for the Cardinals' Ballpark Village downtown may no longer be a sure thing.

Clayton-based healthcare management company Centene Corporation announced last September that it was moving its headquarters to the Village project, after its efforts at securing land through eminent domain for an expansion near its present campus was defeated in court.

But now St. Louis Director of Development Barbara Geisman concedes that the Centene deal "will either happen or not happen in the next couple of weeks. "

http://www.kmox.com/New-Doubts-About-Br ... ll/1818444

Well, well, well. I wish I could say I was surprised.

To me the Centene component of the deal seemed like the one sure sign that this development would go forward, even as all parties dragged their feet in the process. Those of us that want to see this project move forward were told to swallow the bitter pill of repeated delays in construction and the ensuing disappointment because Centene was going to be a great anchor for Ballpark Village. Given the severely reduced residential component, I figured we needed to attract at least one major business to make the development successful, and I was delighted when the city landed Centene even if they gave away the kitchen sink once again.

Now that this component of the deal is apparently in flux, I'm terribly disappointed. Those of you clamoring for a highrise should be quite crestfallen, because if this thing doesn't go through, I expect a series of midrises but nothing more spectacular, and that's assuming that the Cardinals and Cordish are playing it straight with us.

It will be interesting to find out more details about this, i.e., the reasons that this highly-touted development may not go forward after all.

moorlander · PostMar 13, 2008#29692008-03-13T16:19+00:00

unbefreakingleavable!, but not entirely surprising...

just plant some sod, and throw geyser in the middle of pujols pond.

jmedwick · PostMar 13, 2008#29702008-03-13T16:24+00:00

My guess(es)

1. Cordish is saying that in this market the development cannot and should not proceed and if it is not moving forward, Centene doesn't want to be a part of it.

2. Cordish is saying that with the loss of the Centene parcel, their original plans are no longer feasible.

thewayofthearch · PostMar 13, 2008#29712008-03-13T16:55+00:00

Listening to Charlie Brennan this morning he stated that Cordish "had their way of doing business, which Centene was finding very difficult to deal with...and Cordish finds Neidorff a very difficult business partner."

Where are the Cardinals in all this? It will be a huge black mark on them if this falls through.

And while I thought the Centene component was a huge coup and great addition, but fail to see how the rest of the project can't go forward without it if these to donkeys can't pull in the same direction.

Also, as another "question mark" it was stated that the need for eminent domain was still necessary to acquire the Bowling HOF. However, a caller let it be known that the American Bowling Congress is currently consolidating its offices in Texas and has let it be known to pro and amatuer circuits that it intends to move the HOF to texas as well. If this is the case, why would they not sell, or is it just that cordish doesn't want to pay to play?

Lastly, it seems Cordish, who never signed the development agreement, is the major obstacle to progress from everyone's perspective, and given the delays and marginal opening of the P&L district in KC, is probably scared stiff to start this project. IMO, what we need here is to kick them to the curb. They seemed to have exposed themselves as quite the false prophet.

In Slay's interview he reiterated time and again "The City and the Cardinals, especially Bill DeWitt, really want to see this to go forward. Which pointedly left only Cordish as the reason for the projects current stasis.

It may not be a bad thing that Cordish didn't sign the development agreement, because it gives the Cardinals, Centene and the City a recourse to move away from them all together.

MattnSTL · PostMar 13, 2008#29722008-03-13T17:31+00:00

If Cordish is the problem, I wonder how interested the Cardinals are in cutting them loose. The ground work has been layed, what if the Cardinals and Clayco/US Equities/Centene teamed up to develop the whole site. This would obviously cause more setbacks in the project, but could lead to a project being built.

threeonefour · PostMar 13, 2008#29732008-03-13T18:19+00:00

MattnSTL wrote:If Cordish is the problem, I wonder how interested the Cardinals are in cutting them loose. The ground work has been layed, what if the Cardinals and Clayco/US Equities/Centene teamed up to develop the whole site. This would obviously cause more setbacks in the project, but could lead to a project being built.

I think it's time to show Cordish the door and encourage them to let the door hit them on the way out.

People are probably going to be upset with the city, but everything I've seen so far seems to indicate everyone involved at City Hall has exercised due diligence. As aggravated as I feel, I'm not really sure what the city could've done differently, especially since they even revised the original agreement to develop Ballpark Village.

Meanwhile, at the offices of the St. Louis Cardinals and Cordish, you can hear the crickets chirping. Cordish needs to get out of the way, and I don't have a great deal of faith in the Cardinals based on the way they're taking care of their main concern- the baseball team itself.

jambalaya · PostMar 13, 2008#29742008-03-13T18:29+00:00

MattnSTL wrote:If Cordish is the problem, I wonder how interested the Cardinals are in cutting them loose. The ground work has been layed, what if the Cardinals and Clayco/US Equities/Centene teamed up to develop the whole site. This would obviously cause more setbacks in the project, but could lead to a project being built.

I heard that Clayco excused themselves from TBV to pursue TBD. May just be a rumor, but that would seem to be a questionable move.

MattnSTL · PostMar 13, 2008#29752008-03-13T18:33+00:00

Well, they are pretty much just sitting on TBD, but they are involved in the Centene portion of BPV. That's the only reason I bring them up.

Ballpark Village Towers and Mixed Use Project

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