urbanSTL

metzgda wrote:So does the KCP&L district have any residential options? From renderings it seemed similar to Ballpark Village in that there would be hundreds of condos and apartments built. From what I've seen however, it doesn't look like any residential component is there. To me, it seems like an isolated retail development with a new office headquarters and an empty entertainment center (Sprint Center). If KC doesn't get any residential built nor attract a team to Sprint Center quickly, I could see that development going downhill quickly.



Ballpark Village mirrors KCP&L so much it's scary. However, it seems that STL will be in a little better situation in that Cordish is required to have 250 condos in the first phase (at least some residential), we also have an office headquarters, AND we have a functioning entertainment center (Busch Stadium) next to the development.

From the KC Star:



Demolition of the Old Republic Title Co. building at 13th and Baltimore streets is scheduled to begin next week, clearing the way for a proposed 18-story condominium tower.



The 102-unit Power & Light Condo project has been pursued since 2001 by Alsation Land Co. Marketing begin in earnest more than two years ago and the city authorized a $24.2 million bond issue to finance a 700-space garage for the development in November 2006.



The developer, however, experienced problems assembling the site north of the historic Power & Light Building. The final obstacle was obtaining the Old Republic property. Alsation had offered $840,000 for the building, but ultimately paid $1.45 million.



Full story here:



http://www.kansascity.com/business/story/528697.html

JMedwick wrote:My guess(es)





1. Cordish is saying that in this market the development cannot and should not proceed and if it is not moving forward, Centene doesn't want to be a part of it.



2. Cordish is saying that with the loss of the Centene parcel, their original plans are no longer feasible.

Yes, Joe, I think you hit the nail on the head. Not sure if that's what you meant, but it could very well be both.



I always wondered if Cordish didn't feel a bit waylaid by the Centene deal. Now, if Centene were to have been a tenant in Cordish's development, I'm sure they would have been ecstatic, but as it is (with Centene developing their own parcel, with their own retail and their own incentive package), Cordish might feel like the city is trying to give away a piece of their pie.



I also believe I questioned, way back on page 100 or something, whether the Centene deal, as reported in the media, wouldn't create an incongruous situation in which the Cordish and Centene developments would be in competition for office and retail tenants. If that is the way Cordish sees the situation, then it was inevitable that negotiations would devolve into an argument over who is getting the biggest and best slice of pie from the city. As I said before - to mix metaphors - Cordish is notorious for not sharing the sandbox.



Wouldn't it be ironic, if the city, in it's pursuit of two transformative developments for downtown St. Louis, and because of that pursuit, ended up with neither?



BTW, didn't someone have a bet as to which would happen first, Ballpark Village breaking ground or this thread reaching 200 pages?

jlblues wrote:
BTW, didn't someone have a bet as to which would happen first, Ballpark Village breaking ground or this thread reaching 200 pages?

I was just thinking about that. We are getting very close. I'm glad I went with post count, no matter what the number was.

jlblues wrote:I always wondered if Cordish didn't feel a bit waylaid by the Centene deal. Now, if Centene were to have been a tenant in Cordish's development, I'm sure they would have been ecstatic, but as it is (with Centene developing their own parcel, with their own retail and their own incentive package), Cordish might feel like the city is trying to give away a piece of their pie.



I also believe I questioned, way back on page 100 or something, whether the Centene deal, as reported in the media, wouldn't create an incongruous situation in which the Cordish and Centene developments would be in competition for office and retail tenants. If that is the way Cordish sees the situation, then it was inevitable that negotiations would devolve into an argument over who is getting the biggest and best slice of pie from the city. As I said before - to mix metaphors - Cordish is notorious for not sharing the sandbox.

I think your take is right on the money. I'm by nature an optimistic person, but there are simply too many variables with a project like this for me to get excited about its prospects. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but my expectations are low thanks to Cordish and the Cardinals.

Wouldn't it be ironic, if the city, in it's pursuit of two transformative developments for downtown St. Louis, and because of that pursuit, ended up with neither?

Scary, isn't it?

BTW, didn't someone have a bet as to which would happen first, Ballpark Village breaking ground or this thread reaching 200 pages?

Who wants to make a bet for 300? Have fun amongst yourselves, 'cause I think I'll sit that one out.

I haven't seen this posted yet, so if it has please forgive me. I wonder how this changes plans of the development?



From stltoday.com........





Housing woes increase pressure on Miceli

By Joe Whittington

SPECIAL TO THE POST-DISPATCH

03/13/2008





LEGAL PSLs: If the buzz in commercial real estate circles becomes a reality, the law firm of Polsinelli Shalton Flanigan Suelthaus could be selling personal seating licenses for office space.



Word is the firm, headquartered in Kansas City and with offices in Chicago, Washington, Clayton and St. Louis, has an agreement to relocate to the proposed Ballpark Village.



The brokers say the new building with office space of 90,000 to 100,000 square feet would be used to consolidate the 100 lawyers and support staff now in the Pierre Laclede Center in Clayton and the Deloitte Building downtown.



They say the site will be in what is known as Block 300, centered east and west along the south side of the proposed development, "with excellent views into the ballpark."



"We don't have a lease yet, and we are considering our options," said partner Jay Dobbs, who is on the board of directors. "That is one of our options."



The same sources say the law firm of Lewis Rice & Fingersh is staying on base, at least for 18 months, after long consideration of leaving 500 North Broadway.



"Their deal to stay long-term was predicated on the owner selling the building, and there's a legal tangle over the title," said a source.



"We are still in negotiations," said partner Tom Erb, who is heading up the search.

I wouldn't worry so much about the housing market being weak, just more the financing problems that have come with it. These units are a little different than what the article is talking about. That's assuming they get built in the first place...

200! =D> :Violin : smoke.gif shoot.gif







Sorry, I couldn't resist.



BTW, U.S. Equities is more than qualified to develop the whole Ballpark Village site, if they are interested. If it comes down to Centene or Cordish, I hope all involved tell Cordish to go jump in Pujols Pond, regardless of the cost or delay.

I mentioned that this morning. I would hope that the City, and more importantly the Cardinals, would be willing to do something like that if it comes down to it.



I wish we could get some good facts about what is going on.

about the market not being ready, this project if construction started today would not be ready till about 2011 how do they know what the market will look like then?

Because people buy the units now.

TG wrote:I haven't seen this posted yet, so if it has please forgive me. I wonder how this changes plans of the development?

It doesn't mean anything other than they desire an option to be a part of the development, should it proceed.

MattNstl wrote:Because people buy the units now.

Well, they'd reserve now and they wouldn't buy until closing. Something tells me closing is a bit far off. What will the mortgage market be like then? Inflation? The economy? There is inherent risk which the players know about.



I'm not being negative for the sake of it. It's just important for stakeholders to be aware of the environment. On Drudge today it was stated that the Fed has just made its boldest move since the Great Depression. What does that tell us? It means that the financial markets are deteriorating. Why is so much money flowing from the dollar to commodities markets? Before we observed subprime mortgage problems and now it's hitting conventional loans.



I say good luck and hope we see progress over and above a hole in the ground soon. Let's just be realistic here.



Edit - Sorry for editing so much. Misspellings and the like.

^Ha, I was responding to the wrong part of the article. I brought in the housing market by mistake.



As for that article, Inno's answer would be the same as mine. Sorry for any confusion that caused.

Rxlexi..... Stop being positive! we are talking about ST. Louis. You arent allowed to be optimistic on here..........





joking of course

Come on, now, people. Snap out of it. Didn't you read Joe Whittington's column? It sounds like they've got a major law firm to anchor another building in BPV. THIS IS GOOD NEWS.



I guess some people would rather b**** and moan about (understandable) squabling between the many parties in this very complex project than to celebrate the possible addition of 100 lawyers and their support staff to BPV.



Lighten up. It'll happen.

This fourm has had a creepy view into the future.





Status uncertain on Centene's plan to move downtown

By Riddhi Trivedi-St. Clair

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

03/14/2008



SEPTEMBER 23, 2007 -- Centene Corp. president Michael Neidorff (left) and Mayor Francis Slay announce the company's move of its headquarters from Clayton to Ballpark Village, shown here in a model of downtown presented at a news conference at the History Museum in St. Louis.

(Huy R. Mach/P-D)



A deal to bring Centene Corp.'s $250 million headquarters to downtown St. Louis is on shaky ground.



None of the four players in the project would say Thursday whether the deal to move the health care management firm's headquarters from Clayton will take place. But none said it was dead either.



Centene's development is supposed to be inside Ballpark Village, a seven-block entertainment and retail district that city leaders hope will be a cornerstone of downtown revitalization. It's also uncertain when construction will begin on the $387 million first phase of Ballpark Village, co-developed by the St. Louis Cardinals.



What's clear is that frustrations have been rising among the key parties since it became evident that Ballpark Village would not be substantially complete by July 2009 for Major League Baseball's All Star Game, as originally intended. Advertisement



In January, the Cardinals co-developer, Baltimore-based Cordish Co., acknowledged that the project would be delayed. The



company attributed the hold-up to difficulty working Centene into the development.



But on his blog, Mayor Francis Slay pointed the finger at Cordish.



"Cordish has had four months to complete the negotiations and finish the development agreement," Slay wrote. "Like everyone else, I am growing impatient. I want to see construction start soon."



On Thursday, Barbara Geisman, deputy mayor for development, cast doubt on the future of the Centene project, which had been considered a sure thing.



The Centene deal "will either happen or not happen in the next couple of weeks," Geisman said.



She refused to elaborate.



A spokesman for Centene said there was "nothing new" to talk about.



"We have consistently indicated that we have been working to try to finalize some important elements of the project and we are continuing to do so," Ken Fields said. "That's our focus."



A joint e-mail statement by the Cardinals and Cordish did little to clarify the situation.



"We expect the Centene deal to be resolved quickly one way or the other," the statement said.



The developers said they have been ready to break ground since last fall, but cited "several complications."



— Negotiating "a business deal to incorporate" Centene into Ballpark Village.



— Redesigning the Ballpark Village plan "to accommodate Centene's office and parking needs."



— Reworking agreements with the city to incorporate Centene into Ballpark Village.



Meanwhile, delays are mounting, and no date has been set for a groundbreaking.



"No one is more frustrated by the delay than the Cardinals and the Cordish Co.," the co-developers stated.



When completed, Ballpark Village will have 324,000 square feet of retail, restaurant and entertainment space; 100,000 square feet of office space; and 1,200 parking spaces. Developers also are expected to invest a minimum of $15 million in infrastructure improvements.



The development will receive more than $115 million in tax incentives.



The city has a development agreement with the Cardinals for Ballpark Village, but none with Cordish. A second development agreement that would be binding on all parties was approved by the city's Board of Aldermen a year ago, but hasn't been signed.



The Centene deal was announced in September amid much fanfare, as well as a pledge of $78 million in tax incentives. The project is supposed to include two buildings — including a 27-story skyscraper — with up to 1.2 million square feet of office space, 50,000 to 75,000 square feet of retail and 1,750 parking spaces. It is supposed to bring 1,200 jobs to downtown.



Few details have been forthcoming about the deal since September.



After a decision is reached on Centene, "We look forward to the city taking the necessary steps which enable us to break ground (on Ballpark Village)," the Cardinals and Cordish stated. "The city is aware that we have been working with the utmost urgency to resolve the issues related to the Centene project."



Geisman said even if the Centene deal falls apart, "we certainly expect the rest of Ballpark Village to go forward."



rtstclair@post-dispatch.com | 314-340-8206

Play Ball, Home Team Centene/Clayco has brought up a ringer from KC, Polsinelli Shalton Flanigan Suelthuas, to face power hitter Cordish in the bottom of the ninth. Cordish is coming off a slow start after initially missing the autograph session in warm ups this morning. But, Cordish stats have been impressive all season long and seems to own every field he steps onto. Can the late starting home team pull an upset for manager Slay.

I'm gonna go buy a $9 beer. Anybody want anything?

^ A pillow, please! Wake me up when there's actually something happening at Pujols Pond.

The City already controls land just a couple of blocks away that they could give to Centene instead of this site held up by Cordish. Of course, then the City would have to figure out where to place the Gateway Foundation's gift.

I was actually hoping to see something from the St. Louis business journal's website this morning. No such luck. Away on travel so the print addition is out of my grasp. The BJ seems to have been quiet on their reporting of BPV lately. I would take that as a sign of negiotations are still on versus the Post-Dispatch trying to get an eye catching article out.



Slay is hopefully going for the class-A office space first to get those workers downtown!! Retail and additional condo's will fill the pond.