2,190
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2,190

PostDec 05, 2007#2676

1. "Market forces" have little, if anything, to do with this project.

2. Centene didn't offer; it was given massive subsidy. As has this whole project, which despite massive government intervention has still yet to see a single shovel in the ground.

10K
AdministratorAdministrator
10K

PostDec 05, 2007#2677

bonwich wrote:1. "Market forces" have little, if anything, to do with this project.


Great, next you're going to tell me that market forces had little to do with the Old Post Office redevelopment.

2,093
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2,093

PostDec 05, 2007#2678

"Many of the people in the suburbs and around the country are using BPV as the litmus test for downtown revitalization (rightly or wrongly), so rushing anything can cause unnecessary mistakes"



Yes, and that's why throughout baseball season I kept hearing that the talk of Downtown revitalization was bunk because BPV was still a dusty hole in the ground.

While I don't think a critique of downtown based entirely on what one sees from the Stadium is valid, having the void at least look like it's being filled would silent those folks.

1,391
Veteran MemberVeteran Member
1,391

PostDec 05, 2007#2679

"Market forces" have little, if anything, to do with this project


Really?



So the demand and cost for office space won't affect it.

The interest rate on debt financing won't affect it.

The cost of materials won't affect it.

The demand for condos downtown won't affect it.

The fact that Cordish's other projects are stalled/lagging won't affect it.



Super. We have a big dirt patch and a proposed development that is immune to everything other than a bunch of rich people who can't come to an agreement on a cash cow development.

2,190
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2,190

PostDec 05, 2007#2680

TB1000 wrote:
"Market forces" have little, if anything, to do with this project


Really?



So the demand and cost for office space won't affect it.

The interest rate on debt financing won't affect it.

The cost of materials won't affect it.

The demand for condos downtown won't affect it.

The fact that Cordish's other projects are stalled/lagging won't affect it.



Super. We have a big dirt patch and a proposed development that is immune to everything other than a bunch of rich people who can't come to an agreement on a cash cow development.


Do you believe that any of those factors stalled the project? Or, as your ending implies, do you believe that the whole thing is simply a negotiation for corporate welfare that is for the vast part independent of any of the "market forces" you discussed?

5,631
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5,631

PostDec 05, 2007#2681

Obviously, the components that TB1000 mentions and more are relevant. The issues are complex but a talented team can make the project come together. People may scoff incentives all they want, but they're necessary to make St. Louis competitive. As long as incentives are structured to give St. Louis a net positive, then they are good risks for the city to assume.

1,391
Veteran MemberVeteran Member
1,391

PostDec 05, 2007#2682

Do you believe that any of those factors stalled the project? Or, as your ending implies, do you believe that the whole thing is simply a negotiation for corporate welfare that is for the vast part independent of any of the "market forces" you discussed?


It's a combination of both.



Naturally when there are negative market conditions massive projects like this will get stalled/affected. However, I believe that this project is so unique in the fact that it is centered around and will be driven by one of the most successful and popular sports franchises that it can weather the negative forces better than others. That being said, I also believe that because BPV will be a cash cow that the parties involved may be doing too much to maximize their return beyond what is "necessary" thus stalling the project.



I don't have any inside info and am surely not an expert but it doesn't take a genius to see that the parties involved are seriously screwing this thing up.

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4,489

PostDec 06, 2007#2683


144
Junior MemberJunior Member
144

PostDec 06, 2007#2684

Could that be the actual rendering of Centene Tower 1? Much better than the blocks they proposed in Clayton.

6,662
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6,662

PostDec 06, 2007#2685

Exhibit A is not showing up for me.

8,912
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8,912

PostDec 06, 2007#2686

I see neither exhibit A nor any rendering.

11K
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11K

PostDec 06, 2007#2687

WOW! That's AWESOME! I knew they wanted a tower, but that's got to be 45 stories - at least!



Just kidding - the rendering is the same curved glass tower we've seen. There aren't really new renderings, but tons and tons of detailed market studies, tax timelines, etc. It really gives you an idea of how complicated big developments like this are.

6,662
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6,662

PostDec 06, 2007#2688

Nevermind. I'm dumb. Just open the attachments.

2,386
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2,386

PostDec 06, 2007#2689

WOW! That's AWESOME! I knew they wanted a tower, but that's got to be 45 stories - at least!


ass

PostDec 07, 2007#2690

I count 33 stories, some look to be taller than others, figuring in office space I dunno somewhere around 400'. I still don't know how they are going to fit 750,000 sq. ft. into that thing, even from a more detailed rendering. I'm extremely dissapointed. They have a chance to do some much here. The design is uninspired and bland, but I guess most office towers are, right? Not to pile on the negativity, but the new condo tower behind the centene rendering also looks much worse IMO than the original towers proposed for BPV.

8,912
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8,912

PostDec 07, 2007#2691

MattnSTL wrote:Nevermind. I'm dumb. Just open the attachments.


huh? must be cause I have a mac :evil:

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2,821

PostDec 07, 2007#2692

*yawn* Wake me up when there is some actual news.

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86

PostDec 07, 2007#2693

There will be cranes in the sky for the All Star game.



Page 6 of the Exhibit A lays out their revised timetable:



Phase 1 (retail and condos) is expected to "commence in late 2007 or early 2008 and to be completed in 2010....Furthermore, it is expected that a substantial portion of the retail space in Phase 1 will be completed in late spring of 2008. Phase 2 [Centene tower and a hotel]...is expected to commence in early- to mid-2008 and to be completed in 2010."



If they are going to have BPV retail done by late spring 2008, they will have to get started quickly! :shock:

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Super ModeratorSuper Moderator
5,433

PostDec 07, 2007#2694

FromTheLou wrote:If they are going to have BPV retail done by late spring 2008, they will have to get started quickly! :shock:


[Captain Obvious]They've got to be wrong- even spring 2009 would be a rather optimistic timetable.[/Captain Obvious]

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PostDec 07, 2007#2695

For those too lazy to click on the link:














The Phase 1 of the Development Project will include approximately (a)360,000 square feet of retail and entertainment space, (b) 100,000 square feet of office space, (c) 250 residential units and (d) 1200 parking spaces, in addition to public pedestrian and open spaces. The projected development budget for Phase 1 is estimated to total approximately $387 million. Depending on market demand, additional development could add an additional 200,000 square feet of office space, 500 residential unis, 1,200 parking spaces, and other potential entertainment uses.

The second phase of the development project ("Phase 2" or the "Centene Phase" involves the relocation of the corporate headquarters of Centene Corporation...., and is anticipated that approximately 1,000 employees will be located in its new headquarters. Approximately 1,500 additional jobs are e3xped to be located in the non-Centene portion of the office space.

The Centene Phase is expected to consist initially of approximately 800,000 gross square feet of Class A office space, an approximately 180-room hotel, and approximately 1,750 structured parking spaces. The Centene Phase will be developed at a total anticipated cost of approximately $250 million. It is further anticipated that as marked and site conditions permis, and additional up to 550,000 square feet of office space may be developed on the Centene-owned property in the future.

Phase 1 of the Development Project is expected to be implimented and construction is expected to commence in late 2007 or early 2008 and to be completed in 2010; provided, however, that the anticipated completion date may fluctuate based on the Closing and other unforeseen events that may adversely impact the preliminary construction schedule. Furthermore, it is expected that a substantial portion of the implemented and construction is expected to commence in early- to mid-2009 and to be completed in 2010; provided, however, that the anticipated completion date may fluctuate based on the Closing and other unforeseen events that may adversely imact the preliminary construction schedule.


-RBB

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2,430

PostDec 07, 2007#2696

The Centene Tower looks nice from Walnut/ Broadways, though I do wonder how it will look from inside the BPV. The most disappointing thing about the renderings is the blandness on the Centene Tower of the renderings of the towers other than the Centene Tower.





This little nugget was also pretty interesting:


Interviews with downtown office brokers reveal that the south side of downtown has considerable marketing advantages over the north side. Because of its proximity to I-64 exit ramps and better parking space ratios, the south side of downtown, more or less surrounding the Gateway Mall, has greater appeal to downtown employees because it reduces commute times. Office buildings south of Chestnut Street have vacancy rates that are less than half of those to the north (7 percent compared to 15 percent), and command higher lease rates (about $2.44 more per square foot per year) than those to the north.


Worth considering the above in light previous discussions of whether the BPV and surrounding areas are better suited to office or residential development. If the south side of downtown has an inherent advantage for office development and most would agree that increasing downtown employment is a key component to revitalizing downtown, then maybe the notion of creating residential neighborhoods south of Pine is not the best land use decision.

11K
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PostDec 07, 2007#2697

It was reported in the St. Louis Business Journal that Centene is cutting 35 jobs and incurring a $12M charge related to building their downtown headquarters. I'm guess the charge is their first financial commitment to building downtown and was reported simply as a planned financial transaction and that it's not a penalty for cutting jobs?

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PostDec 07, 2007#2698

Mark Lamping stated on "The Morning After Show" on 1380 this morning that BPV phase 1 WILL be open by the allstar game 2009.



PROVE IT!

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PostDec 07, 2007#2699

bpe235 wrote:Mark Lamping stated on "The Morning After Show" on 1380 this morning that BPV phase 1 WILL be open by the allstar game 2009.



PROVE IT!


So what is Phase I now? A team store run out of a trailer? Oooh, no, I know! A parking lot.

622
Senior MemberSenior Member
622

PostDec 07, 2007#2700

Did he say "Phase 1" exactly, or that "something will be open by the time the All Star game is played." I kind of head something closer to the latter...

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