it would be a little odd - and perhaps even a little backwards looking - to re-paint advertisements for companies that no longer exist
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Glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I have no real interest in bringing ghost signs back to life. It would, however, be school to have more "classic" signage for existing businesses.
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Grover wrote:Glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I have no real interest in bringing ghost signs back to life. It would, however, be school to have more "classic" signage for existing businesses.
I'm with you.
I'm kind of surprised that we don't have more new painted signs, like the A-B ad on the side of B.B.'s.
Now, back to Centene/BPV.
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markofucity wrote:it would be a little odd - and perhaps even a little backwards looking - to re-paint advertisements for companies that no longer exist
Yeah, I see where you're coming from; but I like STL history, so I think it would be a nice window to the past. Maybe the Transporation Museum in Kirkwood could take a look into it.
The STL Business Journal is reporting that St. Louis city is actively working to secure the $100 million in New Market Tax Credits for Centene's downtown project. Sources indicate it will be very difficult for the city to secure that much funding. According to Barb Geismann, the city is seeking multiple sources to secure the financing and "hopes" to have it in place next spring so Centene can break ground in the summer.
Also, Cordish has yet to close on it's private financing for the ballpark village project. Cordish wasn't returning calls but according to the article, sources close to the project indicate financing will close in the next few weeks. Barb Geismann indicates that she hopes financing will be in place by New Years Day.
My take on the article is that financing is taking longer and becoming more difficult for the projects. My guess is that Ballpark Village is not finalized until sometime in the spring, with construction beginning Summer '08. I wouldn't be surprised to see Centene construction getting pushed back to Fall of '08 or even Spring of '09.
Also, Cordish has yet to close on it's private financing for the ballpark village project. Cordish wasn't returning calls but according to the article, sources close to the project indicate financing will close in the next few weeks. Barb Geismann indicates that she hopes financing will be in place by New Years Day.
My take on the article is that financing is taking longer and becoming more difficult for the projects. My guess is that Ballpark Village is not finalized until sometime in the spring, with construction beginning Summer '08. I wouldn't be surprised to see Centene construction getting pushed back to Fall of '08 or even Spring of '09.
$100-million in New Market Tax Credits seems a little ambitious, but they must believe they can snag that amount. Good luck. Perhaps they can do it.
In the end, Centene and U.S. Equities might have to scale down the project just a little to allow various subsidies to work. In Clayton, I believe the project was under $200-million. It certainly wasn't $250-million.
In regards to the Ballpark Village, I don't blame Cordish for not returning calls (at least by press time) because all of the local doubting Thomases and hypercritical newspaper articles. I wouldn't want to be bothered either.
It'll happen when it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
In the end, Centene and U.S. Equities might have to scale down the project just a little to allow various subsidies to work. In Clayton, I believe the project was under $200-million. It certainly wasn't $250-million.
In regards to the Ballpark Village, I don't blame Cordish for not returning calls (at least by press time) because all of the local doubting Thomases and hypercritical newspaper articles. I wouldn't want to be bothered either.
It'll happen when it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
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I don't quote Spiro Agnew often, but I get tired of the nattering nabobs of negativity in this town as much as anyone else on this forum.
However, the Cardinals, Cordish, and the City of St. Louis have given people plenty of legitimate reasons to question what's really happening here. The size, scope, and cost of the plans have changed several times. The anticipated groundbreaking date has changed even more often. Of course, this is a complex project, and changes and delays are the nature of the beast. In fairness, I'm not sure what any of the aforementioned parties could have done differently. Still, this is a case where I think the people of this region have every right to live out the motto that can be found on the bottom of our Missouri license plates. I know I won't believe a damn word that any one of the aforementioned parties says about Ballpark Village until I see some action there.
And for crying out loud, if Pyramid and the Roberts Bros. can cover their buildings in signs for projects that are still two or three years away from completion, can't the Cardinals and Cordish throw the people a bone in the meantime and put up renderings around the Pujols Pond? I'm sick and tired of the negative impressions out of towners and the negative locals must get when they see a gaping crater where BPV should be standing now if everything went according to plan a few years ago. Great things are happening all around the Ballpark Village site, and downtown is more vibrant than it's been in at least two or three decades, but people will continue to get the opposite impression as long as the status quo persists. At least some attractive signage would be a start, since we're still months away from any real action.
Rant over.
However, the Cardinals, Cordish, and the City of St. Louis have given people plenty of legitimate reasons to question what's really happening here. The size, scope, and cost of the plans have changed several times. The anticipated groundbreaking date has changed even more often. Of course, this is a complex project, and changes and delays are the nature of the beast. In fairness, I'm not sure what any of the aforementioned parties could have done differently. Still, this is a case where I think the people of this region have every right to live out the motto that can be found on the bottom of our Missouri license plates. I know I won't believe a damn word that any one of the aforementioned parties says about Ballpark Village until I see some action there.
And for crying out loud, if Pyramid and the Roberts Bros. can cover their buildings in signs for projects that are still two or three years away from completion, can't the Cardinals and Cordish throw the people a bone in the meantime and put up renderings around the Pujols Pond? I'm sick and tired of the negative impressions out of towners and the negative locals must get when they see a gaping crater where BPV should be standing now if everything went according to plan a few years ago. Great things are happening all around the Ballpark Village site, and downtown is more vibrant than it's been in at least two or three decades, but people will continue to get the opposite impression as long as the status quo persists. At least some attractive signage would be a start, since we're still months away from any real action.
Rant over.
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Maybe the Cards' owners could take some of the money they made selling Busch Stadium urinals and have some signs made up. How hard would that be?
[sarcasm] ^ But why would you want to do that when you could just threaten to can the whole project unless the City pays for the signage?[/sarcasm]
Will a banner really make people more confident? I don't necessarily think so. Maybe. We've seen it on this forum where large banners and jackhammers punching into the surface don't seem to convince some people. Also, there's a big sign on the corner of Broadway and Clark regarding the Bottle District and nothing has happened yet. I personally don't need a bone. For me, either it will happen sooner or later or it won't. But that's just me.ThreeOneFour wrote:And for crying out loud, if Pyramid and the Roberts Bros. can cover their buildings in signs for projects that are still two or three years away from completion, can't the Cardinals and Cordish throw the people a bone in the meantime and put up renderings around the Pujols Pond?
I firmly believe Cordish, the Cardinals and the City would like for this project to be half way finished by now. Surely we all wanted it to start rising like yesterday. But **it happens. Financing complexities, land acquistion, land swapping, etc. cause delays.
According to metzgda, Geisman and another source has offered hopeful dates when financing will be secured for the BVP area. I personally suspect banks are (have been) scrutinizing projects (especially one's with residential components) more carefully considering the state of the economy. Just my guess. There have been other extenuating circumstances.
Roberts Properties first planned their project over four or five years ago- and it just got going. After the initial announcement, it took Park East Tower three years to rise. BioMed 21 was first proposed in 2003. Now it has a new design and name. It took Lumiere Place three years from proposal to rise. Pinnacle Entertainment first proposed its project in 2003. They didn't start building the complex until 2006. Centene Center for downtown was just announced a few months ago. A new rendering is not even available yet. HOK probably hasn't finished the new design. Mills first proposed their Euclid Ave. (Renaissance on Euclid) project about three years ago. A new modified rendering was recently discovered and posted here.ThreeOneFour wrote:I'm sick and tired of the negative impressions out of towners and the negative locals must get when they see a gaping crater where BPV should be standing now if everything went according to plan a few years ago. Great things are happening all around the Ballpark Village site, and downtown is more vibrant than it's been in at least two or three decades, but people will continue to get the opposite impression as long as the status quo persists. At least some attractive signage would be a start, since we're still months away from any real action.
Folks, a lot of projects simply don't get off the ground as fast as we would like.
Oh, and about the crater.....I am (and was) more concerned about large vacant buildings rotting and dark empty streets downtown and the impression they leave (or left) with visitors.
I think a lot people (including visitors) know that Busch Stadium used to be where the crater is and eventually something will fill the space. Or maybe I'm being naive. Nonetheless, I'm not worried about the impression the crater leaves - at least not yet. Common sense should dictate to some people that something will rise there eventually.
I think a lot people (including visitors) know that Busch Stadium used to be where the crater is and eventually something will fill the space. Or maybe I'm being naive. Nonetheless, I'm not worried about the impression the crater leaves - at least not yet. Common sense should dictate to some people that something will rise there eventually.
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JMedwick wrote:[sarcasm] ^ But why would you want to do that when you could just threaten to can the whole project unless the City pays for the signage?[/sarcasm]
(Don't give those owners any more ideas.) 
Arch City wrote:Will a banner really make people more confident? I don't necessarily think so. Maybe. We've seen it on this forum where large banners and jackhammers punching into the surface don't seem to convince some people. Also, there's a big sign on the corner of Broadway and Clark regarding the Bottle District and nothing has happened yet. I personally don't need a bone. For me, either it will happen sooner or later or it won't. But that's just me.
I don't need the reassurance, but it might give the general public the idea that the Cardinals and Cordish still intend to go forward with the project. Every once in a while, people that don't read this forum or stay on top of business news hear some grand proclamation that financing will be done in a few weeks with groundbreaking in a few months, and they hear it again and again with no signs of action. This project is already unpopular with people opposed to public financing of such endeavors, which is ironic since most of them live in suburbs with shopping centers that were subsidized using similar taxpayer-funded economic development tools.
This will probably annoy you, and I apologize in advance, but I have never taken the plans for The Bottle District seriously.
I firmly believe Cordish, the Cardinals and the City would like for this project to be half way finished by now. Surely we all wanted it to start rising like yesterday. But **it happens. Financing complexities, land acquistion, land swapping, etc. cause delays.
Which I more or less acknowledged in my previous post...
According to metzgda, Geisman and another source has offered hopeful dates when financing will be secured for the BVP area. I personally suspect banks are (have been) scrutinizing projects (especially one's with residential components) more carefully considering the state of the economy. Just my guess. There have been other extenuating circumstances.
This makes perfect sense to me, and the changing economic picture isn't helping matters at all, but Geisman and others have offered many "hopeful dates" with no visible signs of progress.
Roberts Properties first planned their project over four or five years ago- and it just got going. After the initial announcement, it took Park East Tower three years to rise. BioMed 21 was first proposed in 2003. Now it has a new design and name. It took Lumiere Place three years from proposal to rise. They didn't start building the complex until 2006. Centene Center for downtown was just announced a few months ago. A new rendering is not even available yet. HOK probably hasn't finished the new design. Mills first proposed their Euclid Ave. (Renaissance on Euclid) project about three years ago. A new modified rendering was recently discovered and posted here.
True, but none of these projects was announced with the fanfare and lofty promises made by Cordish, the Cardinals, and the city. We've been promised a project that will transform downtown like no other major project has done before (in a city where several major projects have failed to deliver on that claim over the last few decades), and nearly two years later after the old stadium was demolished, all we have to show for it is more trash and standing water in a huge hole in the ground.
Centene is a different matter entirely. They just announced their plans in September, and I wouldn't expect them to have any concrete plans until at least the middle of next year. I'm confident its headquarters will be built as planned regardless of BPV's status.
Arch City wrote:Oh, and about the crater.....I am (and was) more concerned about large vacant buildings rotting and dark empty streets downtown and the impression they leave (or left) with visitors.
Same here. The good news is, there are fewer of these buildings all the time, and many of them are either being transformed or will soon be redeveloped. As for the BPV site, I think the Cardinals could spend a few bucks to do something to make it look better. It's the least they could do at this point.
Arch City wrote:Common sense should dictate to some people that something will rise there eventually.
Common sense should dictate that the current state of the property is an embarrassment to the city.
This is my last lengthy post on this matter for now... there's no sense in going on about this when, once again, there's no news on this project beyond lowering the public's expectations and pushing back the "hopeful" dates for completion of financing and groundbreaking.
I hear you. I really do. Perhaps a sign would boost confidence with some people and the general public, but Cordish has not said otherwise. While they have not disclosed every detail or put up large signs, they have informed the general public of their intentions to build pretty consistently I think. Bill Dewitt and Blake Cordish have expressed their firms' intentions. Plus let's not forget the Cardinals are on the hook. They plan to build the darn village. As I see it, two years is nothing to wait for a big project. Try examining Comcast Tower in Philly or the P&L in Kansas City. The naysayers and impatient people in St. Louis just need to chill. Not to be offensive, but how about if they (or you) write Cordish, Geisman, Crim or the Cardinals to let them know a sign on the site would be helpful. Constant complaining is really futile.ThreeOneFour wrote:I don't need the reassurance, but it might give the general public the idea that the Cardinals and Cordish still intend to go forward with the project. Every once in a while, people that don't read this forum or stay on top of business news hear some grand proclamation that financing will be done in a few weeks with groundbreaking in a few months, and they hear it again and again with no signs of action. This project is already unpopular with people opposed to public financing of such endeavors, which is ironic since most of them live in suburbs with shopping centers that were subsidized using similar taxpayer-funded economic development tools.
In regards to public-funding opposition, the city has already committed subsidies so those people need to chill as well. To my knowledge, there's not even a petition to prevent public funding. People who complain simply need to put their money where their mouths are. Until then, they are invisible.
ThreeOneFour wrote:This will probably annoy you, and I apologize in advance, but I have never taken the plans for The Bottle District seriously.
Naw. I am not annoyed. Personally, I believe in other people's positive ambitions though. I believed in McGuire and all of the other parties involved in the Bottle District. I believe in Clayco now. What's the harm in having optimism? It's no sweat off my back if they come up short or falter. Just wish them the best.
I gathered that. I really did. However, I just don't know what else people want them to do. Geisman and 'nem are only city and development advocates. They don't control bank financing or how or when New Market Tax Credits are issued.Which I more or less acknowledged in my previous post...
That's their job to offer encouragement to the general public. Again, Geisman and 'nem don't control bank financing. They can be ambitious and optimistic, but banks and other obstacles can throw a monkey wrench in the machine. If they have the dates, even if they are "hopeful", they should share - if they desire. That way, the general public - including the naysayers - can know that behind-the-scenes activity is still happening.This makes perfect sense to me, and the changing economic picture isn't helping matters at all, but Geisman and others have offered many "hopeful dates" with no visible signs of progress.
BioMed 21 was a big deal and so was Park East Tower for the CWE. Furthermore, I don't recall that big of a promise being made about the BPV. BPV is supposed to physically transform south downtown, and I think it will.True, but none of these projects was announced with the fanfare and lofty promises made by Cordish, the Cardinals, and the city. We've been promised a project that will transform downtown like no other major project has done before (in a city where several major projects have failed to deliver on that claim over the last few decades), and nearly two years later after the old stadium was demolished, all we have to show for it is more trash and standing water in a huge hole in the ground.
Centene is a different matter entirely. They just announced their plans in September, and I wouldn't expect them to have any concrete plans until at least the middle of next year. I'm confident its headquarters will be built as planned regardless of BPV's status.
I agree.ThreeOneFour wrote:As for the BPV site, I think the Cardinals could spend a few bucks to do something to make it look better. It's the least they could do at this point.
The lot should be cleaned up if it is dirty and trashy. The fact that it sits empty for now, to me, is not embarrassing. If it goes on for another year, then I might start getting a little worried and embarrassed. But that's just me.ThreeOneFour wrote:Common sense should dictate that the current state of the property is an embarrassment to the city.
As I see it, "hopeful" dates are better than "nopeful" dates.ThreeOneFour wrote:This is my last lengthy post on this matter for now... there's no sense in going on about this when, once again, there's no news on this project beyond lowering the public's expectations and pushing back the "hopeful" dates for completion of financing and groundbreaking.
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^ Arch, thanks for the thoughtful response. 
I think you said it best when you suggested that people who are frustrated should take their concerns directly to the Cardinals, Cordish, and the City of St. Louis. Now that I've had the chance to vent a little, I think that's what I'll do, and what other people frustrated with the present state of the former Busch Stadium site should do.
I think you said it best when you suggested that people who are frustrated should take their concerns directly to the Cardinals, Cordish, and the City of St. Louis. Now that I've had the chance to vent a little, I think that's what I'll do, and what other people frustrated with the present state of the former Busch Stadium site should do.
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ThreeOneFour wrote:I don't quote Spiro Agnew often, but I get tired of the nattering nabobs of negativity in this town as much as anyone else on this forum.
Hmmm.....I thought the members of this forum WERE the nattering nabobs of negativity. Scroll back through the past 177 pages and tell me I'm wrong!
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^ You think people here can be negative? Try the StlToday forums. You ain't seen nothing yet.
I think much of what's been said here is healthy skepticism compared to discussions you'll find in other venues. I'm generally positive about developments like this, and I've supported the idea of Ballpark Village from day one, but I am growing weary of the delays even though I know it's not uncommon for a project of this size and significance.
I think much of what's been said here is healthy skepticism compared to discussions you'll find in other venues. I'm generally positive about developments like this, and I've supported the idea of Ballpark Village from day one, but I am growing weary of the delays even though I know it's not uncommon for a project of this size and significance.
I've read where it roughly takes about a year for a large project to be properly designed. There are alot of legal hoops and regulations that the architects and engineers must contend with during the design phase.
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^ How long does it take for a project to be improperly designed?
Sorry, but there is no excuse for not putting up some site fencing with renderings of the project, or at the very least, something saying "Ballpark Village - Coming Soon" . This is pretty much standard, especially for such a high-profile project in a high-visibility location, and more importantly, it is just plain good business. Believe it or not, potential retail tenants do listen to rumors and do take superficial things like this into account.
Obviously, the expense of the site signage is not an issue, and construction logistics definitely aren't an issue, so the only reason that I can surmise for Cordish not doing this is that it is one more way for them to put pressure on the various politicians and bureaucrats to get the public financing package completed, and to win more concessions in those negotiations. I think it is fairly obvious to everyone at this point that Cordish and the Cardinals play dirty ball - not that that is surprising, many developers do - and this is just one more example.
Obviously, the expense of the site signage is not an issue, and construction logistics definitely aren't an issue, so the only reason that I can surmise for Cordish not doing this is that it is one more way for them to put pressure on the various politicians and bureaucrats to get the public financing package completed, and to win more concessions in those negotiations. I think it is fairly obvious to everyone at this point that Cordish and the Cardinals play dirty ball - not that that is surprising, many developers do - and this is just one more example.
It's going to be a shame when not even one phase will be open for the All-Star game. You won't get a more perfect opportunity to showcase the rebirth of St. Louis. Sure, some cranes in the sky and all that crap looks nice but the finished product is what visitors will remember the most.
^At this point, I'd settle for "cranes in the sky". I think the ship has pretty much sailed for most of the retail though.
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jlblues wrote:^At this point, I'd settle for "cranes in the sky". I think the ship has pretty much sailed for most of the retail though.
Right. At this point "Cranes" (plural) is a good expectation. It could very well be "crane" on the Centene building only. We can forget having anything of substance done. There may be one or two infill buildings, but nothing substantial. As important as it is to look good for the visitors that come to town, it is more important to look good on TV (especially for the Home Run Derby). The cranes in the background might do just as well.
We ought to forget the All-Star game deadline. Rushing to get anything done for that will just cause mistakes. Just take the necessary time and do it right. If Cordish needs time to make better deals, take the time. It is essential that BPV works (brings in nice retail and sells a lot of condos). Many of the people in the suburbs and around the country are using BPV as the litmus test for downtown revitalization (rightly or wrongly), so rushing anything can cause unnecessary mistakes. If anything, the city needs to push Cordish to come up with another fantastic rendering for the All Star Game to show the rest of the country. But, that is about all that is necessary at this point.
This land will sell itself. It is the best real estate in Saint Louis and if Cordish is patient good offers (like Centene) will come. Let's just be patient. We all want the 3 tower design that was marketed, but with patience we may get something even better.
How long does it take to get the details right? The ballpark has been open for two full seasons and they have known for years that there would be a prime empty lot right where half of Old Busch Stadium used to sit. Now I understand market forces and what not, but we are supposed to be building something that will last for a long time so they can either build the damn thing and by the time they actually finish it the bad market will most likely be over, or continue to sit on it and we will have a nice big dirt lot in the middle of downtown.
IMO, Cordish needs to be fired and someone who can do the job NOW needs to be hired.
IMO, Cordish needs to be fired and someone who can do the job NOW needs to be hired.