Anyone have any high hopes for that huge "retail anchor" section? I'm thinking Virgin Megastore. I like the seperate "bookstore" space, too.
I like the formal plaza with a cafe and other restaurants nearby, it looks like this is one plaza in downtown we won't have to complain about not having enough activity.
I like this idea.
I'm still not sure if that type of supermarket would survive downtown. The small specialty grocers will cater to the type of people who buy these condos - people with money. I assume once downtown's residential population gets closer to the 30,000 mentioned by Kevin McGowanthe other day, you'll see a larger mid-market type grocery store.
MattnSTL wrote: And where 62 and 70 landed will be in restaurants and retail areas. That could make for interesting themed spaces.
I like this idea.
markofucity wrote:
why must every development have a "gourmet grocery." I'd rather see a plain old schnucks. I live down here ... occasionally I like to buy regular priced food
I'm still not sure if that type of supermarket would survive downtown. The small specialty grocers will cater to the type of people who buy these condos - people with money. I assume once downtown's residential population gets closer to the 30,000 mentioned by Kevin McGowanthe other day, you'll see a larger mid-market type grocery store.
Remember specialty grocer could maybe just mean as Whole Foods or a Straubs (which I think would be a great fit in this location if alot of the towers and cupples are residential).
I thought the bowling HOF did have allys in it?
I think the surface lot to the east is being eyed by MODOT for a new ramp for east bound 40, though I would rather see them chose another location.
I actualy don't like the location of the anchor retail. That corner at Walnut and 8th is pretty dead. the BOA and old GenAm buildings are pretty dead and the stadium west garage doesn't add any life either. It will be nice to have the retail, but I would somehow rather see the anchor closer to the center of the combined Cupples/ BV district.
I thought the bowling HOF did have allys in it?
I think the surface lot to the east is being eyed by MODOT for a new ramp for east bound 40, though I would rather see them chose another location.
I actualy don't like the location of the anchor retail. That corner at Walnut and 8th is pretty dead. the BOA and old GenAm buildings are pretty dead and the stadium west garage doesn't add any life either. It will be nice to have the retail, but I would somehow rather see the anchor closer to the center of the combined Cupples/ BV district.
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You're right, the Bowling Hall of Fame does have a few lanes. If, in its next life, the Hall of Fame features more lanes, a bar, etc., it could be pretty cool.
stl555 wrote:
I'm still not sure if that type of supermarket would survive downtown. The small specialty grocers will cater to the type of people who buy these condos - people with money. I assume once downtown's residential population gets closer to the 30,000 mentioned by Kevin McGowanthe other day, you'll see a larger mid-market type grocery store.
Dont forget that Soulard is 1 mile south of downtown. I know plenty of people that would rather go downtown to get to a schnucks than drive to grand and gravois, myself included.
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I'd rather drive to Chesterfield than shop at Grand and Gravois - that store is deplorable.
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yes - I meant the surface lot to the EAST. Sorry. ...
and I also live in Soulard - and I would also love a decent schnucks nearby.
and I also live in Soulard - and I would also love a decent schnucks nearby.
Entertainment/Restaurants on the SE corner of the BPV...I wonder if that could be an ESPN Zone?
All I know is the people in charge of the Bottle District better get their butt in gear.
All I know is the people in charge of the Bottle District better get their butt in gear.
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Highway ramps were originally planned for the block between the Stadium and Pointe-400 (fka Pet), but plans have since changed.
The originally planned ramps were meant to replace lost connections from the PSB to/from Memorial Drive, a change that wouldn't have taken place until after the new MRB opened. However, the Stadium, though nearing completion, was more recently planned than the MRB and its related projects, for which MoDOT is still arguing cost years later.
Once the 8th Street ramp was removed for the Stadium, MoDOT decided to relocate the on-ramp to 6th Street, accessible from 4th, Broadway and 7th from Gratiot. The current "last Missouri exit" to 6th and Cerre would also be reconfigured to 6th and Gratiot. You can view the plans on-line here.
So with these newer ramps south of 40 now planned, the ramps north of 40 died. Thus, the block between the Stadium and the former Pet Building is ripe for development. And while some may say that southern ramps are bad too, since limiting infill development opportunities south of the Stadium, luckily the ramps only feed into the non-through 6th Street, allowing 4th, Broadway and 7th each to realize rehab and infill as street connections from Downtown to Soulard.
The originally planned ramps were meant to replace lost connections from the PSB to/from Memorial Drive, a change that wouldn't have taken place until after the new MRB opened. However, the Stadium, though nearing completion, was more recently planned than the MRB and its related projects, for which MoDOT is still arguing cost years later.
Once the 8th Street ramp was removed for the Stadium, MoDOT decided to relocate the on-ramp to 6th Street, accessible from 4th, Broadway and 7th from Gratiot. The current "last Missouri exit" to 6th and Cerre would also be reconfigured to 6th and Gratiot. You can view the plans on-line here.
So with these newer ramps south of 40 now planned, the ramps north of 40 died. Thus, the block between the Stadium and the former Pet Building is ripe for development. And while some may say that southern ramps are bad too, since limiting infill development opportunities south of the Stadium, luckily the ramps only feed into the non-through 6th Street, allowing 4th, Broadway and 7th each to realize rehab and infill as street connections from Downtown to Soulard.
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St.Louis UAB alumni wrote:Entertainment/Restaurants on the SE corner of the BPV...I wonder if that could be an ESPN Zone?
All I know is the people in charge of the Bottle District better get their butt in gear.
If they're able to lure an ESPN Zone to Ballpark Village (and I hope they do), I can't imagine that the Rawlings sports bar in the Bottle District will be able to survive.
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I'd love an ESPNzone in the BV. Good thing is that Cordish has put ESPNzone's in many of their developments. I'd be happy if 1/4 of these chains would locate in the BV.
From the Cordish website
Off topic, but I prefer the Shop n Save on Gravois just south of the Schnucks on Grand. Schnucks does a horrible job maintaining their city stores.
From the Cordish website
The Cordish Company has long term relationships with the vast majority of the leading national retail/entertainment tenants including such brand names as Hard Rock Caf?, The Walt Disney Company, Barnes & Noble, ESPN Zone, Improv!, SFX/ClearChannel, Ralph Lauren Polo, Tommy Hilfiger, Bass Pro Shops, Dave & Busters, The Gap and many others.
Off topic, but I prefer the Shop n Save on Gravois just south of the Schnucks on Grand. Schnucks does a horrible job maintaining their city stores.
Rawlings will be fine simply because it will be part of another entertainment district geared towards another sport. That, and it's more convienient to the loft district residents. However, they more time they sit on the butt they harder it will be to develop a loyal customer base. If ESPN Zone gets there first then they are going to get all the business.
Both establishments are very nice and I will be glad if just one opens.
Both establishments are very nice and I will be glad if just one opens.
If St. Louis is going to capitalize on the growth taking place then the city must be able to support two sports bars. And not just sports bars, but anything that builds on what is already taking place. If an ESPNZone does come to Ballpark Village then I don't think that inevitably means doom for the Bottle District. If it does then there are far greater problems with the downtown boom.
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markofucity wrote:yes - I meant the surface lot to the EAST. Sorry. ...
and I also live in Soulard - and I would also love a decent schnucks nearby.
No problem. Thanks for clearing that up. My brain was starting to hurt trying to figure out which lot you meant.
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St.Louis UAB alumni wrote:Rawlings will be fine simply because it will be part of another entertainment district geared towards another sport. That, and it's more convienient to the loft district residents. However, they more time they sit on the butt they harder it will be to develop a loyal customer base. If ESPN Zone gets there first then they are going to get all the business.
Both establishments are very nice and I will be glad if just one opens.
Better yet, how about some non-chains? We have too many of those already. I've never been in either of these places, and yet I bet I can tell you exactly what is on the menu.
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:St.Louis UAB alumni wrote:Rawlings will be fine simply because it will be part of another entertainment district geared towards another sport. That, and it's more convienient to the loft district residents. However, they more time they sit on the butt they harder it will be to develop a loyal customer base. If ESPN Zone gets there first then they are going to get all the business.
Both establishments are very nice and I will be glad if just one opens.
Better yet, how about some non-chains? We have too many of those already. I've never been in either of these places, and yet I bet I can tell you exactly what is on the menu.
sure, you can have some non-chains, but they'll have to go in existing space elsewhere. the project won't get financed without national credit tenants signing leases.
Better yet, how about some non-chains?
Non-chains typically don't have the resources like they do to make a really good sports bar.
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I am surprised no one else has mentioned that the interior blocks aren open to street traffic. I think that is what makes the Boulevard in St. Louis work so well - minimal street traffic on a narrow two-way street with on-street parking.
I think it would make the interior space much more appealing in the off-season and it could easily closed durning game days. But it doesn't look like that is part of the plan.
Also the site plan only shows two residential towers and no office tower, which was a point of confusion from the DeWitt interview, and a change from the previous renderings.
I think it would make the interior space much more appealing in the off-season and it could easily closed durning game days. But it doesn't look like that is part of the plan.
Also the site plan only shows two residential towers and no office tower, which was a point of confusion from the DeWitt interview, and a change from the previous renderings.
mbow76 wrote:If St. Louis is going to capitalize on the growth taking place then the city must be able to support two sports bars. And not just sports bars, but anything that builds on what is already taking place. If an ESPNZone does come to Ballpark Village then I don't think that inevitably means doom for the Bottle District. If it does then there are far greater problems with the downtown boom.
They are talking about having 30,000 plus downtown residents, and if they aren't enough to support these two places there are exactly zero sports bars anywhere else in St. Louis that could compete with either Rawlings or ESPN. These would be the places to be on every big game day, and ESPN Zone would be packed every baseball game, while Rawlings would get all the football crowd. I hope the downtown boom will have more of a snowball effect that will support the new busineses.
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you know - I know we're notfans of the "morgue of malls," but at what point does a downtown mall actually become viable? If we have 30,000 residents within walking distance - couldn't that (in addition to the downtown work crowd), support a mall?
I don;t like the mall either and I would like to see the stores face the street, but just numbers wise - I'm starting to wonder if it could work.
what if they opened up the mall somehow - made the stores face out turn the interior into a kind of plaza ....
I don;t like the mall either and I would like to see the stores face the street, but just numbers wise - I'm starting to wonder if it could work.
what if they opened up the mall somehow - made the stores face out turn the interior into a kind of plaza ....
Thing is though, I live in Chicago, I've never been to ESPN Zone except when family is in town and they want to go. Some places attract tourists but aren't the bars you would go to every day even if you lived near them. Once in a while, of course. Who knows.
Also, I'm hoping that the "Live Music" Restaurant turns out to be House of Blues.
Also, I'm hoping that the "Live Music" Restaurant turns out to be House of Blues.
ESPN Zone isn't much of a tourist destination for people like me. It's more of a necessity.
I've never been to ESPN zone. Honestly, it doesn't appeal to me, but I can see how it can appeal to many St Louisans, being that it's such a sports town. The ESPN Zone in Chicago, however, doesn't really appear to be that much of a busy place.
MattonArsenal wrote:I am surprised no one else has mentioned that the interior blocks aren open to street traffic. I think that is what makes the Boulevard in St. Louis work so well - minimal street traffic on a narrow two-way street with on-street parking.
The middle is open to street traffic. A couple of the streets are not, but you will be able to drive through the site. You can see bump outs at the corners, meaning there will be on street parking. You can even see cars in some of the renderings.
The residential and office is not listed on the site plan because it will be on the upper floors of the buildings. All of the buildings have a base of retail/restaurants/entertainment.