urbanSTL

What difference does it make if you can't see the Arch from the ballpark? Who goes (will be going) to (the new) Busch Stadium to look at the Arch? If someone is more interested in seeing the Arch than watching a ball game, maybe they should skip the ball game and go to the rivefront. We should be concerned with building a viable, sensible downtown, not in not building things so we can see the arch from such and such place downtown. The Arch is part of the RIVERFRONT, not part of the new stadium, and as much as I love the arch, let's not let it dominate over common sense.

You don't go to a Cards game to look at the Arch, but it's still awesome that you can see it. It adds to the aura and the mystique of the ballpark.

I know most people aren't like me, but I do go to baseball games wanting to look at the Arch and skyline. But I would much rather look at several 50 floor buildings, with the Arch and skyline behind them. 2, 3, even 6 towers would not block the view enough to dissapoint anyone, they would simply enhance the aura of being right in the middle of all the action of downtown. A building on the parking lot to the east would also make a big difference. Build a sleek condo tower on the piece of land between the Metro tracks and Cupple's station building too, like the conceptual Chouteau' Lake plans had.

True, people do not go to Busch or anyother stadium to see the city, but that doesn't mean people don't want a nice view from there seats. One reason PNC Park in Pittsburgh is considered so beautiful is the great views of downtown that can be seen. (I guess that makes up for the cr*p seen on the field) The Priates and the city wanted it built there specificuly too advertise the city and make going to the game more pleasent. THe same thing is going on here. The Cards might have a better product on the field, but that doesn't mean people don't want to enjoy the senic views of downtown from the new stadium.

Well, this looks like a potential can of worms...lol! My point is not that from the stadium the Arch shouldn't be seen and buildings should. My point is to do what is fit and proper for a downtown street. That is, rather than worrying about looking out from the stadium, worry more about what the streetscape consists of. You can't have an instense urban area without buildings, that goes without saying. But should the buildings be placed in relation to the aesthetic view from the stadium so the Arch can be seen, or in relation to the aesthetics and function of the city street? I vote for the streetscape scenario.

(Personally, I think the new stadium should have been built elsewhere...perhaps the Pruitt-Igoe site...???)

Marmar wrote: But should the buildings be placed in relation to the aesthetic view from the stadium so the Arch can be seen, or in relation to the aesthetics and function of the city street? I vote for the streetscape scenario.

100% agree. first priority should be functional vibrant streetscape, then farther down the list should be view from your seat at the stadium.

If I had to choose between an exciting downtown and a view of the arch from the stadium, I would take the exciting downtown. But, I don't see why both can't be accomplished.

"Registration is strong for the upcoming Issues and Answers Luncheon at the Stadium Club on September 29. Featured speaker will be Cardinals Sr. VP for Business Development Bill DeWitt III talking about Ballpark Village."



Source: Downtown St. Louis Partnership website, Sep 16th updates:

http://www.downtownstlouis.org/files/Se ... 162005.doc



Anyone going?

I didn't even know about, and wouldn't be able to go anyway, but I would assume that there may be soem new info on ballpark village, maybe even some new renderings. Hopefully there is, and it is made widely pulic.

I would never want the Cards to play anywhere else than the CBD. It's really one of the most unique settings for sports in the country. The fact that all of our sports franchises have stadiums/arenas downtown. It does a good job of bringing life downtown.



I just think that you can accomplish both a vibrant streetscape and wonderful views from the stadium at the same time. It's all about smart planning, and if there's people who can accomplish that it's those we have in charge. The Cardinals owners are wonderfully smart businessmen, and they made smart hires in choosing Cordish. I think that the Ballpark Village is going to be one of the most hotly demanded living areas in the country (not just St. Louis). I think there will be rich out-of-towners who will buy apartments/condos in the area just to be able to 'have a place' next to the ballpark. With all the ideas they've presented about the site, I truly think this is going to be a one of a kind site.



And I do think that the design will take into account the ability to view the whole of downtown (as much as possible) when construction on the village is completed.

trent wrote:I would never want the Cards to play anywhere else than the CBD. It's really one of the most unique settings for sports in the country. The fact that all of our sports franchises have stadiums/arenas downtown. It does a good job of bringing life downtown.

I go to 30 plus games a year and could honestly care less about anything else while I'm there but baseball. To suggest otherwise really detracts from the game and is an insult to hard core Cardinal's fans at large. I see the Arch on my way in and out of the game, and that's certainly enough for me.

trent wrote:I would never want the Cards to play anywhere else than the CBD. It's really one of the most unique settings for sports in the country. The fact that all of our sports franchises have stadiums/arenas downtown. It does a good job of bringing life downtown.



I just think that you can accomplish both a vibrant streetscape and wonderful views from the stadium at the same time. It's all about smart planning, and if there's people who can accomplish that it's those we have in charge. The Cardinals owners are wonderfully smart businessmen, and they made smart hires in choosing Cordish. I think that the Ballpark Village is going to be one of the most hotly demanded living areas in the country (not just St. Louis). I think there will be rich out-of-towners who will buy apartments/condos in the area just to be able to 'have a place' next to the ballpark. With all the ideas they've presented about the site, I truly think this is going to be a one of a kind site.



And I do think that the design will take into account the ability to view the whole of downtown (as much as possible) when construction on the village is completed.

I honestly do hope that this ends up being a win-win for everyone. But my point is that sometimes the real world does not allow it and decisions need to be made- hard decisions. And with those decisions come trade-offs, opportunity costs, and unintended consequences that are hard to predict. In this case it will be the Cardinals making the decisions and they are first going to do what is best for the team (maximize profit) and second do what is best for the city (vibrant streetlife). I hope this becomes a moot point and 'smart planning' as you say prevails. I guess I'm a tad leery because we don't have an abundance of examples of win-win, and we have too many examples of the hard decisions where the city gets the short end of the stick.



apologies for coming off negative, I'm really quite a pleasant person.

par,



The Cardinals are going to do what is best for the city, as it pertains to the Cardinals. My personal feeling is that the Cardinals owners are shrewd and smart business people. They know what is best for their business, and the Ballpark Village is something that is attached to their business. They will do what is best there.



All of this is the owners trying to maximize their investment, and eventually probably sell the team. With all that attached, it only makes sense for them to make the smart business decision.

Actually, loftlover, it shouldn't be an insult. I am also a huge cardinals' and baseball fan, but can't wait to be able to sit in the stadium and take in the skyline at night. While living in Detroit, it was an amazing view sitting in their stadium (which is very similar to what our new one will be as far as views, field visibility from the street). Baseball fan (hardcore or not), seeing and enjoying the skyline doesn't take anything away from a ballgame, it just adds to it.



Also, it will give out-of-towners who are in town only to watch the game a chance to actually see what is outside of the stadium and parking garage walls while in town, and might actually encourage them to get out and explore.

Info from the Downtown Partnership:



The six-block development will include residential, office and entertainment-retail. Among the features will be the Cardinals Experience, including a relocated Cardinals Museum. At the southern edge, pedestrians along Clark Street will get a view into the new stadium from Left Field. Groundbreaking for the first phase could be by August 2006, with completion 18-20 months later.

Check out the new renderings of ballpark village here.



http://www.cordish.com/

^good stuff!

Welcome to the forum!



Those renderings make no sense, some look like the the ones presented earlier. Look at the first and last slide, they are very contradictory.

to the best of my knowledge, the last three slides are the updated renderings.

Prior Rendering (See page 1 of this post):

Slide 1

Old Url

http://cardinals.mlb.com/stl/photo/ph_b ... illage.jpg





New Renderings (At least I don't remember them before):

Slide 7: Shows three tall towers.



Arial View: Shows another midrise tower.



Slide 5: On some new street between Walnut Street and Clark Street looking West. See site plan below. I would guess this is new too since this shows the "blue glass roof thing" shown in the 'arial slide'.



Slide 6: On Clark Street looking East (see the building with notch one of the new towers)







More Prior Renderings (See page 1 of this post):



Slide 2 Old Rendering

Old url link.

http://cardinals.mlb.com/stl/photo/ph_b ... ffices.jpg



Slide 3

Old url link.

http://cardinals.mlb.com/stl/photo/ph_b ... retail.jpg



Slide 4

Old url link.

http://cardinals.mlb.com/stl/photo/ph_b ... eplaza.jpg







Old Site Plan:





Uugggh. It's so frustrating when developers mix old and new renderings together. So confusing. Ohh well the new renderings are really interesting

appraisalman wrote:to the best of my knowledge, the last three slides are the updated renderings.

that makes sense, those do look newer.