I was considering not putting that down, because I honestly couldn't remember (maybe that says something about the playground). I know they put some rockets out front...did they move the playground to along the front entrance? I know the dinosaurs are still there...maybe move those over?Alex Ihnen wrote:^ The science playground is still there, though desperately needs to be redone.
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One wonders if they've delayed maintenance with an eye toward moving it across the highway?Alex Ihnen wrote:^ The science playground is still there, though desperately needs to be redone.
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It's right next to the circle drive and the dinosaurs. You can check it out on google maps. It's a cool place, but it would be great if it were expanded and updated. I like that it's in Forest Park, but it would be cool where the Exploradome now sits - and Compton-Drew would like that as well.
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I like that as well...put the science playground on the Science Center side, put a space playground (and more rockets) on the Planetarium side.Alex Ihnen wrote:It's right next to the circle drive and the dinosaurs. You can check it out on google maps. It's a cool place, but it would be great if it were expanded and updated. I like that it's in Forest Park, but it would be cool where the Exploradome now sits - and Compton-Drew would like that as well.
...or turn the marshmallow dome into a huge laser Floyd show. (sarcasm)
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No science playground with dinosaurs is complete without a sandbox full of bones.
If you click on that link, you'll see that I made a point of praising the Forest Park dinosaurs for being exactly where they are. Please don't move them. I like them next to the bike trail.
I think making the entire area south of Clayton Avenue into a 'science playground/park' would be nice. Don't mess up the grass and trees, but spread the general idea that that the Science Center controls that area of the park. More dinosaurs, random rockets in the middle of nowhere, so on. Make them visible from the highway too. Making a long wall of geological time along one of the paths, and stuff like that.
Restoring the street grid is a given.
If you click on that link, you'll see that I made a point of praising the Forest Park dinosaurs for being exactly where they are. Please don't move them. I like them next to the bike trail.
I think making the entire area south of Clayton Avenue into a 'science playground/park' would be nice. Don't mess up the grass and trees, but spread the general idea that that the Science Center controls that area of the park. More dinosaurs, random rockets in the middle of nowhere, so on. Make them visible from the highway too. Making a long wall of geological time along one of the paths, and stuff like that.
Restoring the street grid is a given.
An op-ed in the Beacon is complaining about having to pay for special exhibits and the (nearby) parking at the zoo: The "free" zoo
I was surprised to read this, most people I've talked to seem to think the zoo is still a bargain. Maybe I underestimated St. Louisans' desire for subsidized parking/unwillingness to park and walk.
I was surprised to read this, most people I've talked to seem to think the zoo is still a bargain. Maybe I underestimated St. Louisans' desire for subsidized parking/unwillingness to park and walk.
I'm pretty sure the business model for those traveling shows is to charge admission, regardless of what the particular museum's admission policy is. So the Tutankahmun show, Napoleon show, etc.... I think those just wouldn't come to St. Louis if they weren't allowed to charge.
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^ At the Zoo you're not talking about traveling exhibits, but the Children's Zoo, Manta Ray petting pool, the train, carousel and the other amusement rides. We've never paid to park at the Zoo and we've been there 50+ times. I guess we also go early - easier to find parking and the Children's Zoo, Manta Ray exhibit and carousel are free for the first hour. I guess I wish those things were free all day too, but people don't realize that many zoos are $15/person + you pay for everything inside. Anyway, here's to hoping the ZMD expands. The last decade of migration is the region really demands that St. Charles County and others begin to pay.
Look at the comments on that piece, and try to imagine the comments on a similar piece on STLToday. Many thanks to the Beacon for providing a calm, sane, and literate news alternative for calm, sane, and literate readers.
Even if you park in an area you don't pay for, it's not that far. Jesus, people are lazy.rbeedee wrote:An op-ed in the Beacon is complaining about having to pay for special exhibits and the (nearby) parking at the zoo: The "free" zoo
I was surprised to read this, most people I've talked to seem to think the zoo is still a bargain. Maybe I underestimated St. Louisans' desire for subsidized parking/unwillingness to park and walk.
The zoo train doesn't actually take you sightseeing. It's more of a shortcut to get from one side of the park to another. I suppose if you're too lazy to walk for free parking, then you'll probably also b**** about having to walk across the zoo. The horror.
I think what that editorial misses is the fact that only about 1/3rd of zoo visitors are already paying for it through property taxes. The very rough breakdown of zoo visitors is 1/3rd from more than an hour away, 1/3rd from the metro, but not STL City / County, and 1/3rd from City / County. The 1.3 million people of STL City / County subsidize the Zoo for the other 1.3 million people in the Metro, but everyone uses it at about the same rate.
Charging for special exhibits therefore seems pretty reasonable when you consider that 2/3rds of people are not already subsiding the Zoo and get in the door free.
I think the glaring omission in the ZMD is now St. Charles County, which has more people and more buying power than STL City, but is paying lower sales tax & property tax rates - but they are still using the ZMD institutions.
Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman
Charging for special exhibits therefore seems pretty reasonable when you consider that 2/3rds of people are not already subsiding the Zoo and get in the door free.
I think the glaring omission in the ZMD is now St. Charles County, which has more people and more buying power than STL City, but is paying lower sales tax & property tax rates - but they are still using the ZMD institutions.
Scott Ogilvie
24th Ward Alderman
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My God, how did you ever get elected anyway with using your fancy logic and "facts"?
For those not following the current History Museum controversy, a summary: the History Museum bought a property on Delmar in 2006 that was owned in part by former mayor and History Museum trustee Freeman Bosley. The History Museum paid close to a million dollars for the property without getting an appraisal (since a board member is a realtor, they apparently felt no appraisal was necessary). The city currently values the property at about $232,300 (nextSTL story).
Obviously this highlights problems of poor board oversight of the history museum, special rules/corruption among our political and cultural elites, and incompetence. I initially thought it was mostly due to incompetence/arrogance among History Museum leaders until I saw that even though a study showed contamination that would be expensive to clean up, the History Museum did not ask for any price reduction. I'm no real estate guru, but it seems absurd to me not to ask for a price reduction to account for the repairs despite being "dissatisfied with the environmental condition of the property" and a consultant suggesting the price was too high. Seems like there might be more to the story than we know yet.
How to solve a problem potentially caused by coziness among our region's cultural and political ruling class? Clearly the best thing to do is to bring in another member of the elite ruling class to mediate, despite that member highlighting his own potential conflicts-of-interest: John Danforth agrees to get involved in history museum controversy, Danforth says he has no conflict in Missouri History Museum talks
An initial report from some ZMD board members has criticized the handling of the deal, as well as the History Museum's board of trustees (captive to the president and generally feckless) and the president's compensation. So far the museum has cut two years off the president's contract and agreed to pay some of his retirement package through private donations rather than tax dollars (though as the ZMD report says, since money is fungible it doesn't really make that big of difference what pocket the money comes from). Also, a preliminary deal for a new supervisory agreement and stricter budgetary oversight negotiated by Danforth to move power from the private Board of Trustees to the public ZMD board has been struck; voting on approval is scheduled for this week (Post-Dispatch article, Beacon article).
I love the ZMD and think it's a great asset for the region, and that's exactly why everything it does needs to be appropriate and above-board: if people can't have confidence in it they won't fund it, and corruption (or even the appearance of corruption) or wealthy and powerful people trading money back and forth with no apparent benefit to the taxpayers wipes out trust that isn't easily gained back.
Obviously this highlights problems of poor board oversight of the history museum, special rules/corruption among our political and cultural elites, and incompetence. I initially thought it was mostly due to incompetence/arrogance among History Museum leaders until I saw that even though a study showed contamination that would be expensive to clean up, the History Museum did not ask for any price reduction. I'm no real estate guru, but it seems absurd to me not to ask for a price reduction to account for the repairs despite being "dissatisfied with the environmental condition of the property" and a consultant suggesting the price was too high. Seems like there might be more to the story than we know yet.
How to solve a problem potentially caused by coziness among our region's cultural and political ruling class? Clearly the best thing to do is to bring in another member of the elite ruling class to mediate, despite that member highlighting his own potential conflicts-of-interest: John Danforth agrees to get involved in history museum controversy, Danforth says he has no conflict in Missouri History Museum talks
An initial report from some ZMD board members has criticized the handling of the deal, as well as the History Museum's board of trustees (captive to the president and generally feckless) and the president's compensation. So far the museum has cut two years off the president's contract and agreed to pay some of his retirement package through private donations rather than tax dollars (though as the ZMD report says, since money is fungible it doesn't really make that big of difference what pocket the money comes from). Also, a preliminary deal for a new supervisory agreement and stricter budgetary oversight negotiated by Danforth to move power from the private Board of Trustees to the public ZMD board has been struck; voting on approval is scheduled for this week (Post-Dispatch article, Beacon article).
I love the ZMD and think it's a great asset for the region, and that's exactly why everything it does needs to be appropriate and above-board: if people can't have confidence in it they won't fund it, and corruption (or even the appearance of corruption) or wealthy and powerful people trading money back and forth with no apparent benefit to the taxpayers wipes out trust that isn't easily gained back.
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Exactly. Exactly. EXACTLY.rbeedee wrote:How to solve a problem potentially caused by coziness among our region's cultural and political ruling class? Clearly the best thing to do is to bring in another member of the elite ruling class to mediate, despite that member highlighting his own potential conflicts-of-interest.
Yes. Especially painful because the ZMD desperately needs to expand. When it was created, a large portion of the metro area didn't live in St. Charles County (not in the ZMD) and other far-flung places. Covering STL City/County pretty much covered the area in the 1970s.rbeedee wrote:I love the ZMD and think it's a great asset for the region, and that's exactly why everything it does needs to be appropriate and above-board: if people can't have confidence in it they won't fund it, and corruption (or even the appearance of corruption) or wealthy and powerful people trading money back and forth with no apparent benefit to the taxpayers wipes out trust that isn't easily gained back.
Paralysis at the ZMD board meeting: Board members clash over Missouri History Museum controversy
The board that distributes tax money to the Missouri History Museum can’t agree on whether to rebuke the museum’s leadership and finances — or whether to issue advice at all.
The board members are also at odds over a new deal, brokered last week by former Sen. John Danforth, that revamps oversight of the museum.
The divide became clear at a meeting Monday afternoon of the Zoo-Museum District board, which oversees $70 million in tax money sent annually to five local cultural institutions. The meeting descended into argument and accusation among the eight members. It ended three hours later with little agreement — but plenty of evidence of a split board.
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I believe that the new members (including one/some appointed by Mayor Slay) are attempting to hold the museum accountable and some of the long time members are objecting. (Sorry for the quick though devoid of declarative statements - don't have time to look it all up right now.)
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Agreement reached on MO History Museum & ZMD
Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... ement.html
The agreement was brokered by Sen. John Danforth and sets standards for large spending allocations going forward. It's almost as if they read rbeedee's comments, that a member of the "elite ruling class" step in and mediate an agreement between the conflicting parties. And, you don't get more "elite ruling class" than Senator Danforth.
Note: Article includes a 5-page letter from Sen. Danforth detailing the agreement, which is also available here:
After detailing changes to the operating contract, Senator Danforth finishes his letter thusly:
Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... ement.html
The agreement was brokered by Sen. John Danforth and sets standards for large spending allocations going forward. It's almost as if they read rbeedee's comments, that a member of the "elite ruling class" step in and mediate an agreement between the conflicting parties. And, you don't get more "elite ruling class" than Senator Danforth.
Note: Article includes a 5-page letter from Sen. Danforth detailing the agreement, which is also available here:
After detailing changes to the operating contract, Senator Danforth finishes his letter thusly:
Having completed my work, I hope you will allow me to add a personal thought. The cultural institutions of St. Louis are world class, and they are the source of enormous civic pride. They are significant attractions to people who consider relocating to our region, so they have economic as well as cultural importance. They have been blessed with the dedicated support of private citizens in time and treasure as well as public support through tax money distributed by the Zoo Museum District. It is critical to the health of St. Louis that we nurture this partnership of private and public support.
As with every human enterprise, sometimes things go wrong, and when they do we must correct them. But as members of one community, it is important to offer one another our presumption of good will, our acknowledgement that most wrong decisions are not made with evil intent, and our commitment as St. Louisans that even when we find fault with one another, we are all in this together.
Thank you for indulging me in these personal reflections, and, again, thank you for the opportunity to be of service.
This concludes my work.
It'd probably be worth a lot more if the original buildings were still there.
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stltoday - History Museum overpaid for ex-mayor's land by $615,000, appraisal shows
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... 75934.html
stltoday - History Museum overpaid for ex-mayor's land by $615,000, appraisal shows
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... 75934.html
And if they hadn't torn up those street car tracks. Thanks for the great pic.quincunx wrote:It'd probably be worth a lot more if the original buildings were still there.
Prop P was claimed to be an example of regionalism, but the City and County are only 46% of the metro in population, granted more in terms of economic activity.
How do we sell to other counties the ZMD or chipping in on the Arch improvements(Note Madison and St Clair have a GRG counterpart)?
I suggest a tiered system wherein the City and County pay 1 unit and others pay 1/4, and if an institution in a county is added it goes to 1/2. That way it doesn't seem as big a deal.
But that won't sell itself. I don't think "Come be a part of the community for the good of us all" is enough. How do you respond to "Why pay for the cow when the milk is free?" thinking?
Set aside the damage the History Museum fiasco caused.
How do we sell to other counties the ZMD or chipping in on the Arch improvements(Note Madison and St Clair have a GRG counterpart)?
I suggest a tiered system wherein the City and County pay 1 unit and others pay 1/4, and if an institution in a county is added it goes to 1/2. That way it doesn't seem as big a deal.
But that won't sell itself. I don't think "Come be a part of the community for the good of us all" is enough. How do you respond to "Why pay for the cow when the milk is free?" thinking?
Set aside the damage the History Museum fiasco caused.
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^ start charging residents of those counties to visit the institutions
^Play hardball? Maybe so.
Speak of the devil- ZMD maxes out levy. My assessment hasn't been going down.
StlToday - History Museum will get full $10 million in taxes despite uproar
Speak of the devil- ZMD maxes out levy. My assessment hasn't been going down.
StlToday - History Museum will get full $10 million in taxes despite uproar
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... e9bbc.htmlLast year, the Zoo-Museum District raised 3.82 cents per $100 of assessed value for the History Museum, Saint Louis Science Center and Missouri Botanical Garden, sending the three about $10 million each. But with the recent drop in property values, the board had to boost rates this year if it wanted the tax funding to remain the same.
How about put a card for free entry for you and 3 guests that's good for a year in with your property tax paid receipt? Put the owner's name on it so they can't sell it.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ start charging residents of those counties to visit the institutions
Oh but what about renters?
Then at the zoo you will see a drop in attendance and a drop in revenue from concessions, train rides and parking losses.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ start charging residents of those counties to visit the institutions
Or in extreme cases there will be competing zoos popping up all over the metro area.
The Metro East Zoological Gardens
St. Charles County Westplex Zoo
Franklin County Mountainside Zoo
