We should ask the Zoo to list two sets of prices for concessions (and I'm totally making up these prices):
Dr. Pepper $4.00 ($3.00 for ZMD residents)
Hot Dog $6.00 ($5.00 for ZMD residents)
Fries $7.00 ($5.50 for ZMD residents)
I would bet after just one summer that everyone in St. Charles County woukd know three things:
1. The ZMD is the Zoo Museum District.
2. St. Charles County doesn't participate in the ZMD.
3. If we participated, we'd get discounts and save money at the Zoo.
I think where it would really be educational is at the Zoo, while waiting in line to buy three hungry kids lunch and sodas on a hot day. At that point, the ZMD becomes a humanitarian issue.
quincunx wrote:How do we sell to other counties the ZMD or chipping in on the Arch improvements(Note Madison and St Clair have a GRG counterpart)?
I'm very serious about this.... each institution needs to have prominent signs with a drop box stating along the lines of "Your free admission is brought to you through the generosity of the citizens of Saint Louis City and Saint Louis County. If you do not live in these counties, please consider placing a contribution in the drop box."
What I'm not so serious about is when technology evolves having a digital sign that recognizes whether or not a contribution was made by outsiders.... a "Thank You for Your Support" message comes up for those who gave; a "Thanks a Lot, You Freaking Freeloaders.... Don't Get Pissy When We Charge You for A Few Bucks to Ride the Train" for those who didn't.
^That technology is the key. It's not very civil libertarian of me, but...
Set up a system that reads license plates when drivers pull up to the parking lots. If the plate is registered to the City or County, then it stays the flat rate. If it registers for an outside City or County, then charge $1 more.
Visitors can always choose to park elsewhere, say on the many streets in Forest Park, and walk to the venues. This negates the backlash of having license plates read, as one can always choose to not park in the lots. Meanwhile, STL's Finest may appreciate the chance to have this technology compare & contrast plates to known violators of whatever; this could give them a chance to better police visitors. Not that thugs normally want to see the bear pits and giraffes, but who knows...
Should this technology be cost-feasible, it could pay for itself in short time. From then on, that's more money to the ZMD.
On a less-intrusive level, there could be opportunities for donation boxes to be installed near the entrances of certain institutions. On a strictly voluntary level, it could ask that visitors donate $1 (or whatever) towards the continued care, maintenance, and growth of the Zoo, the Art Museum, whatever. I bet that this option would see strong donations increase from all visitors, whether from the City, the County, the Chuck, JeffCo, Metro East, Chicago, Florida, Oregon, wherever.
^I like the idea of the donation boxes, but I don't know how effective they'd be.
I honestly don't think the average O'Fallon soccer mom (I'm just choosing a typical St. Charles County municipality here; not picking on O'Fallon per se) even *realizes* that St. Louis City and County property owners pay a tax that St. Charles County residents do NOT pay to support the ZMD. I'm serious here - if you've lived in St. Charles County all your adult life, or maybe moved there from outside the area, you might not even know HOW the ZMD institutions are funded.
At first blush, I'd say offer free parking to drivers presenting a drivers license with a City or County address; others would have to pay the usual $11 or whatever it is. Then I remembered that Zoo Members (like me!) already get free parking passes. I would expect a pretty big backlash (not to mention a drop in Zoo memberships) if that perk were removed.
Presbyterian wrote:We should ask the Zoo to list two sets of prices for concessions (and I'm totally making up these prices):
Dr. Pepper $4.00 ($3.00 for ZMD residents)
Hot Dog $6.00 ($5.00 for ZMD residents)
Fries $7.00 ($5.50 for ZMD residents)
I would bet after just one summer that everyone in St. Charles County woukd know three things:
1. The ZMD is the Zoo Museum District.
2. St. Charles County doesn't participate in the ZMD.
3. If we participated, we'd get discounts and save money at the Zoo.
I like these ideas and they'd be pretty easy to implement - no new technology like license-plate readers, etc.
Sure there would be cheats ("hey sister-in-law, please show your drivers license when I buy my families hot dogs so I can save $3") but there are cheats everywhere. This would be an easy way to phase-in non-ZMD charges.
I wonder how elastic zoo attendance actually is. The Cincinnati Zoo charges ~$15/visitors - wonder how their attendance compares to STL. I like the free zoo concept (and other institutions), but the city/county are suffering under the current system.
^ Saint Louis Zoo attendance is a huge draw that I think far outpaces similar sized metro areas w/ possible exception of larger San Diego. It surpassed 3 million last year iirc... that is more than average baseball attendance for most MLB teams.
I think the sign explaining that the property tax payers of St Louis City and County are paying and asking for donations is the way to start. It informs and there's no need to train employees to check ID's, settle disputes over what's valid ID, etc. I think they can do that without a change in statute too, whereas charging entrance fees needs a change in the law. Only MoBOT can charge at the moment, correct?
quincunx wrote:I think the sign explaining that the property tax payers of St Louis City and County are paying and asking for donations is the way to start. It informs and there's no need to train employees to check ID's, settle disputes over what's valid ID, etc. I think they can do that without a change in statute too, whereas charging entrance fees needs a change in the law. Only MoBOT can charge at the moment, correct?
Then maybe try the parking thing
Yes, MOBOT is the only one that can charge. They were the last to come in to the district and receive a much lower rate. They did change up there free resident days, for this year, btw.
And I agree with your point that the signage is one more of education than $$ raising, which I think is most important at this point. Plus appropriate recognition of citizens support is just the right thing to do.
Even though MoDOT charges, it's always more expensive to go to the other places - if you actually want to do the fun things there (Science Center movie/play room/etc., special exhibits at SLAM/MoHIST, ride the train/carousel/etc. at the zoo).
I'd really like to see signs simply thanking the tax payers who make the institutions free to enter for all visitors. I don't think a contribution box or anything is necessary.
Alex Ihnen wrote:I wonder how elastic zoo attendance actually is. The Cincinnati Zoo charges ~$15/visitors - wonder how their attendance compares to STL. I like the free zoo concept (and other institutions), but the city/county are suffering under the current system.
Alex Ihnen wrote:I'd really like to see signs simply thanking the tax payers who make the institutions free to enter for all visitors. I don't think a contribution box or anything is necessary.
Okay, no contribution box. But the Art Museum already has one, sans a "Suck it St. Chuck" message.
Alex Ihnen wrote:^ by carrying the full funding burden of institutions used by others
Still don't see the suffering bit when a majority of the voters at one time willingly voted to support the instituions. Maybe it should go back to vote if their is support for the question, should fare box replace taxpayer support? a fair referendum to put forth to City and County residents.
Personally, I don't feel like I'm suffering as a St. Louis county property tax payer because a community of mine decieded at one time to support via tax revenues some great institutions that my family appreciates and has made use multiple times. Just as my family willingly supported and used Shrewsbury parks.
Another way to look at it. I see the issue not much differnt from paying an assessment on your property to repave the street in front of your house. Would I want to try and collect a toll from someone whose is not from my neighborhood visitng my neighbor. No, I think that would be nonsense. Simplistic argument? yes, but think it is worth the point that a decision was made to support institutions knowing full well that other people will benefit from it without the burden. I think the benefit far outweighs the burden at end of day.
Alex Ihnen wrote:^ by carrying the full funding burden of institutions used by others
Again, how are St. Louis City and County suffering? I ask again because I assume there is an official study somewhere demonstrating this assertion? I am not trying to pick a fight, however, I know there are people who are anti-tax EVERYTHING. I hate taxes too at times, but I love them for what I think legitimately enhances the community.
Also, institutions in the Zoo Museum District are many times gifted with huge and generous donations from the private and corporate sectors plus they receive grants - so St. Louis City and County are not footing the bills alone. While people can be overtaxed in many instances, there are great examples of how taxing helps to improve communities for the better. ZMD is one of them.
If anything, the ZMD is the one that could potentially suffer due to sprawl. I think this is your point? The ZMD can only draw tax revenue from the available pool of taxpayers within the district. If that pool shrinks so do the tax revenue dollars to the ZMD. Therefore, the ZMD institutions potentially suffer - not the taxpayers.
Perhaps a future case could made to charge a nominal fee for everyone, however, that would be only in the event the institutions actually suffer - and from what I see now, that isn't the case because several institutions within the district have had some kind of major expansion within the last five years. The STLZoo even bought property for potential expansion. St. Louis has world-class cultural institutions.
FREE museums, a FREE zoo and FREE Science Center etc. are characteristically St. Louis.
Imagine St. Louis without the ZMD and FREE admission to some of the country's best cultural institutions.
I guess Alex is saying that if the ZMD institutions suffer as a result of sprawl and a shrinking core tax base, the St. Louis region will suffer as a result of having underfunded and therefore sub-par institutions. Which I agree with.
I personally think they should charge anybody that is not paying into the institutions if outlying counties do not join. St. Louis has world class institutions, especially for a region its size. It really is a shame that the suburban counties feel entitled to take advantage of these institutions and claim St. Louis, but not have to share in the burden. It really is the best of both worlds for half of the metro. Imagine how much better these institutions would be if everybody chipped in. If a new ZMD wanted to build an aquarium in Metro East or a new museum in St. Charles. I would have no problem with that if they payed their fair share, even if I think most of the regions major institutions should be centered around Forest Park.
goat314 wrote:I guess Alex is saying that if the ZMD institutions suffer as a result of sprawl and a shrinking core tax base, the St. Louis region will suffer as a result of having underfunded and therefore sub-par institutions. Which I agree with.
That's what I surmised too, but right now, however, it doesn't seem as if the ZMD is suffering and neither are St. Louis City or County residents.
How? Especially when expansions of these institutions have been completed and are underway? I guess when it gets to a serious economic standpoint, there could be a contemplative outcry for change, but now?
I just don't see it - especially in light of Prop P's passage.
If people were hurting so badly, Prop P would have been blown out of the water.
What I'm saying is that city/county taxpayers bear the burden of taxation for the institutions. What if revenue for the institutions stayed basically the same - they all seem to be doing quite well - but was spread across the region? The ZMD tax in the city/county could be reduced, lessening the burden. You can quip about the word "suffering" all you want, but it's an unjust burden to pay for freeloaders. If a region wants to vote to support free institutions, that's great, but when the ZMD was voted on the city/county were 60%+ of the MSA. They are now just 46%.
so i want to hear people's opinions on a couple of my observations and some hear-say:
1) last year i was in town and visited the Science Center on a random weekday afternoon. the place seemed dirty and poorly kept, the second-floor area where the optical illusion exhibits usually live was completely empty. multiple exhibits were either broken or poorly implemented (for example, there was a projection globe thing on the lower level that was situated in a cubby hole near the dinosaurs with a spotlight shining directly on it so that you couldn't even see the projection, and the rattling coming from a vent next to the Fourier transform exhibit was so loud it was impossible to use the exhibit as intended.) overall it felt dirty, sparse, underfunded and embarrassing.
2) i'm in town again and went to the zoo yesterday to see Sea Lion cove, which was okay but less impressive than i expected. anyway, the pool in front of the penguin exhibit was absolutely filthy and stunk of rotten fish, and i heard several other visitors comment on it as well. inside the penguin exhibit the water tanks looked like they hadn't been cleaned in a while either. then in the insectarium there were several boxes where the live insects had been replaced by taxidermic ones and a couple of boxes with very large insects dead on their backs on the floor. in the Missouri swamp exhibit (the flight cage) there was trash floating in the water and some of the interactive/informational signs were broken. again, overall, the zoo felt understaffed, underfunded, and poorly kept (there was even more litter on the ground than i remember).
3) i was talking to a friend today who knows people who work at the zoo who told him that they are, indeed, understaffed.
i'm getting worried. if the ZMD is so well-funded, why does it seem like some of the component institutions are not being maintained? has anybody else noticed this? am i making it up? perhaps they should focus less on expanding and more on maintenance?
