urbanSTL

Would be interesting. Also seems like we will be lucky if Bank of America renews their lease come 2028. Or at least stays downtown

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Downtown activity zones & the problem area. Problem area has residential, office & garages. To fix it, it's going to have to be more than just office to residential, there has to be more office workers there too. Mark Twain has to go & area around Schnucks has to be cleaned up

I think the area needs probably 15,000-20,000 more daily workers, 2000-3000 apartments and about 2 dozen restaurants to see its full potential. Those should be the targets by 2030, and someone's entire job should be focused on that.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

6:09 PM - May 27

Downtown activity zones & the problem area. Problem area has residential, office & garages. To fix it, it's going to have to be more than just office to residential, there has to be more office workers there too. Mark Twain has to go & area around Schnucks has to be cleaned up

I think the area needs probably 15,000-20,000 more daily workers, 2000-3000 apartments and about 2 dozen restaurants to see its full potential.  Those should be the targets by 2030, and someone's entire job should be focused on that.

I appreciate the thinking and bold optimism but how in the world is that 30ish square block (problem) area going to add 15,000-20,000 more daily workers (in the Covid era), 2000-3000 apartments and about 2 dozen restaurants?  "someone" has their work cut out for them. LOL.  (Hell, if the *entire MSA* adds 15K more people/workers in the next 5 years, I'd consider it a huge win.)

Removing numbers, I do fully agree that cleaning up (literally and figuratively) that area is what DT efforts should almost solely be focused on.

The "problem area" includes most of our large vacant buildings and several occupied office buildings with struggling occupancy rates. Even buildings like One Metropolitan Square, probably our single best office building, is only ~70-75% occupied. BoA Plaza is less than half full, 1010 Market is extremely empty, 200 Broadway has been one of the hardest hit in the last year, 100 Broadway is only around half full, US Bank Plaza will be more than half empty once Thompson Coburn either finds a new downtown home at BPV or Millennium or moves to Clayton. And there's several more. Not all of these can be filled with apartments.

Between AT&T, RWX, and Chemical, that's some 1,500 apartments already. You can probably assume Laclede Gas and Millennium Center would also be a given for full residential conversions, that's another couple hundred. Crown Plaza would be another 400+ apartments. I just don't see any pathway where ALL this empty office space can become apartments, office is still a huge part of the future of dowmtown no matter how we cut it, even in 2026.

A good step one that's well within the city's power would be to move the offices at 1520 Market to one of downtown's many struggling office builings. That building is some 300,000 square feet, has terrible interaction with the street, and there have been considerations to build a food court inside of it because of how far away it is from downtown restaurants and businesses to patronize.

One of downtown's problems is how so many employers do not have their employees meaningfully within downtown. Take Ameren, Purina, even Wells Fargo. They all have thousands of "downtown" workers but none of them are actually downtown. The city's office at 1520 Market is no different, except in that the city could make the move today if it wanted.

The benefits of such a move would be huge:

-Support a struggling downtown tower (or more than one), boost property value.
-Support downtown business, boost sales taxes and property value.
-Sell 1520 Market and have it redeveloped into something that compliments Enterprise and Stifel.

The city should be taking its own action and leading by example.

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soulardx wrote: ↑

7:45 PM - May 27

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

6:09 PM - May 27

Downtown activity zones & the problem area. Problem area has residential, office & garages. To fix it, it's going to have to be more than just office to residential, there has to be more office workers there too. Mark Twain has to go & area around Schnucks has to be cleaned up

I think the area needs probably 15,000-20,000 more daily workers, 2000-3000 apartments and about 2 dozen restaurants to see its full potential.  Those should be the targets by 2030, and someone's entire job should be focused on that.

I appreciate the thinking and bold optimism but how in the world is that 30ish square block (problem) area going to add 15,000-20,000 more daily workers (in the Covid era), 2000-3000 apartments and about 2 dozen restaurants?  "someone" has their work cut out for them. LOL.  (Hell, if the *entire MSA* adds 15K more people/workers in the next 5 years, I'd consider it a huge win.)

Removing numbers, I do fully agree that cleaning up (literally and figuratively) that area is what DT efforts should almost solely be focused on.

I need to call out that I was mistakenly conflating people/jobs in the above comments regarding the MSA. At *current* trends -- between Jan 1, 2026 and Dec 31, 2029 -- the entire MSA should add about 57K jobs.  (how the hell does a MSA add so many jobs yet lose so many people? Again, don't get it!!)

Related to downtown specific job growth, I can't find any citable sources that show any large city downtown that has added 20K jobs in 4 years post covid.  Seattle, Atlanta, Austin and Baltimore are candidates but the it all depends on how downtown is defined.  

All-in-all, the chances of adding 20K jobs in that tiny area of downtown STL are infinitesimally small. 

But again, that problem area needs to be cleaned up. and, fully agree with the city moving workers to this area.

Why would they need to be new created jobs? Plenty of office jobs around the region to move downtown

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

4:38 PM - May 28

Why would they need to be new created jobs?  Plenty of office jobs around the region to move downtown

Fair enough!

So, let me ask this - how do you specifically propose that STL buck post-Covid nationwide trends on jobs moving *out of* downtowns. A trend that is even more pronounced in STL. I know you said it should be someone's entire job but certainly you have ideas.

I think talking jobs/housing/restaurants before addressing downtowns core challenge - actual and perceived anti-social disorder/crime - is putting the cart before the horse. So, here's an out-there idea to address the core issue - deploy the National Guard on every corner in that problem area 24/7.  Same with the areas around Busch. 

I don't think the core challenge of Downtown from a jobs perspective is actual and perceived anti-social disorder. 

I think the core challenge of Downtown is the population shifts in the region that have taken the "center" so far west that it doesn't make geographic sense for a lot of people to go downtown regularly. An overwhelming number of people have built out fully-formed lives twenty, thirty minutes west of Downtown and even if there was no sense - real or perceived - of public safety issues, it is just not where they live their lives. If I was building a business to employ 100 people, I would consult population patterns of employees and perspective employees before deciding where to hang my hat. And that place might wind up being virtual anyway. 

stlokc wrote: ↑

5:13 PM - May 28

I don't think the core challenge of Downtown from a jobs perspective is actual and perceived anti-social disorder. 

I think the core challenge of Downtown is the population shifts in the region that have taken the "center" so far west that it doesn't make geographic sense for a lot of people to go downtown regularly. An overwhelming number of people have built out fully-formed lives twenty, thirty minutes west of Downtown and even if there was no sense - real or perceived - of public safety issues, it is just not where they live their lives. If I was building a business to employ 100 people, I would consult population patterns of employees and perspective employees before deciding where to hang my hat. And that place might wind up being virtual anyway. 

I respectfully disagree on the first point.  I don't have time to do google searching but I believe companies who moved from DT STL to Clayton or the suburbs have pointed to the disorder as a main driver. I could be wrong!

Now, your second point? Fully agree but I'd argue the disorder DT and in other parts of the city is a big reason why the population has shifted to begin with. 

SoulardX, I fully agree that disorder (or perceived disorder) is a reason why jobs move west. At least a stated reason. 

But I kind of think that it's a lagging indicator, an excuse if you will. The employees themselves moved west 15 or 20 years ago or a generation before that. And whether that was crime, or wanting a different school system or a newer house or some degree of racism can be debated and  there are probably elements of all of the above. Now the jobs are following the people almost more than the other way around. I could be wrong too. It's a multi-layered issue to be sure. 

stlokc wrote: ↑

5:27 PM - May 28

SoulardX, I fully agree that disorder (or perceived disorder) is a reason why jobs move west. At least a stated reason. 

But I kind of think that it's a lagging indicator, an excuse if you will. The employees themselves moved west 15 or 20 years ago or a generation before that. And whether that was crime, or wanting a different school system or a newer house or some degree of racism can be debated and  there are probably elements of all of the above. Now the jobs are following the people almost more than the other way around. I could be wrong too. It's a multi-layered issue to be sure. 

Agree with all of that. I do think that over the long term (25 years, 50 years), MSA jobs follow MSA people. 

Thanks for respectfully engaging. 

1) You could get ~9,000 more employees in the core of downtown if Wells Fargo Advisors, Purina, and Ameren moved their HQs into the core of downtown instead of being on the fringes.

2) STL's downtown is perceived as no more anti-social than any other downtown, we are not special in that regard. The same types of people who naysay about ours also naysay about downtown Manhattan. stlokc is correct here, it has far more to do with travel times for people who live in West County and St. Charles. The same is happening in cities like Dallas for example, where the population growth has been centered in the north.

3) The reason people moved away is white flight and de-segregated schools. Calling it "perceived anti-social" is just covering for racism.

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If we're fantasizing about massive companies picking up their headquarters campus' - already in the city mind you - and moving them a few miles for nothing other than civic duty, why stop at Purina, Wells and Ameren? Get Anheuser Busch to stop being selfish and join the party. Barnes too. 

jbacott wrote:If we're fantasizing about massive companies picking up their headquarters campus' - already in the city mind you - and moving them a few miles for nothing other than civic duty, why stop at Purina, Wells and Ameren? Get Anheuser Busch to stop being selfish and join the party. Barnes too. 

It's less about civic duty and more about the health of the city from the city's perspective and the type of hard-core action that needs to be taken if we ever want downtown to resemble what it once was. And the point is more about how we already effectively have half of the "20,000" jobs DB says the core of downtown needs. It's not as impossible of a number as it appears on the surface.

Moves of these three companies would not only instantly revitalize the core of downtown, it would also open tons of redevelopment opportunities in what is currently terrible subruban-style corporate campuses with copious amounts of parking that cut parts of the city off from downtown, especially on the south side. These campuses are also terrible for property values, each being far less valuable than equivalent swaths of land in single-family home neighborhoods in south city.

I feel that a mayor who genuinely wants downtown revitalization (this is not me harping on any specific mayor) should go to these three companies, offer massive tax breaks, Rams money subsidies, work with building owners to find office space, and basically go through heaven and hell to relocate these companies into the core of downtown. In the long run, any tax breaks eventually will expire, you'd see property values grow across the board, you'd see sales increase and downtown business surge, you'd see a total reversal of the "doom loop" narrative, you'd see long term property tax growth in the redevelopment of their former campuses, and all of it would be done without attracting any new companies to STL.

I think it's less fantasy with these three because they already each already are in the city and claim to be downtown. It's not like I'm imagining RGA or WWT moving downtown. I think Barnes is more or less fine because it's the anchor of STL's most successful neighborhood as is. AB would also have a much greater impact on STL moving downtown, but it's not like they're downtown or claim to be like the other three. It's also totally normal for brewery HQs to be on the campus of a large brewery.

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soulardx wrote: ↑

5:02 PM - May 28

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

4:38 PM - May 28

Why would they need to be new created jobs?  Plenty of office jobs around the region to move downtown

Fair enough!

So, let me ask this - how do you specifically propose that STL buck post-Covid nationwide trends on jobs moving *out of* downtowns. A trend that is even more pronounced in STL. I know you said it should be someone's entire job but certainly you have ideas.

I think talking jobs/housing/restaurants before addressing downtowns core challenge - actual and perceived anti-social disorder/crime - is putting the cart before the horse. So, here's an out-there idea to address the core issue - deploy the National Guard on every corner in that problem area 24/7.  Same with the areas around Busch. 

you offer companies that are downtown 3% of their employees gross payroll if they spent 35 hours a week in the office in downtown.  For Stifel thats like $10M a year.   And House Bill 3231 just happens to do exactly that....its like as if people have been working on this 

dbInSouthCity wrote:

soulardx wrote: ↑

5:02 PM - May 28

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

4:38 PM - May 28

Why would they need to be new created jobs?  Plenty of office jobs around the region to move downtown

Fair enough!

So, let me ask this - how do you specifically propose that STL buck post-Covid nationwide trends on jobs moving *out of* downtowns. A trend that is even more pronounced in STL. I know you said it should be someone's entire job but certainly you have ideas.

I think talking jobs/housing/restaurants before addressing downtowns core challenge - actual and perceived anti-social disorder/crime - is putting the cart before the horse. So, here's an out-there idea to address the core issue - deploy the National Guard on every corner in that problem area 24/7.  Same with the areas around Busch. 

you offer companies that are downtown 3% of their employees gross payroll if they spent 35 hours a week in the office in downtown.  For Stifel thats like $10M a year.   And House Bill 3231 just happens to do exactly that....its like as if people have been working on this 

Who determines what is downtown and what isn't?

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dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

8:23 PM - May 28

soulardx wrote: ↑

5:02 PM - May 28

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

4:38 PM - May 28

Why would they need to be new created jobs?  Plenty of office jobs around the region to move downtown

Fair enough!

So, let me ask this - how do you specifically propose that STL buck post-Covid nationwide trends on jobs moving *out of* downtowns. A trend that is even more pronounced in STL. I know you said it should be someone's entire job but certainly you have ideas.

I think talking jobs/housing/restaurants before addressing downtowns core challenge - actual and perceived anti-social disorder/crime - is putting the cart before the horse. So, here's an out-there idea to address the core issue - deploy the National Guard on every corner in that problem area 24/7.  Same with the areas around Busch. 

you offer companies that are downtown 3% of their employees gross payroll if they spent 35 hours a week in the office in downtown.  For Stifel thats like $10M a year.   And House Bill 3231 just happens to do exactly that....its like as if people have been working on this 

There we go! Thank you for engaging.

Now, why didn't you just directly connect HB 3231 your post above, rather than have the convo play out as it has pointing to "someone's entire job should be focused on that"...to then just be a condescending a**hole with "its like as if people have been working on this"? 

Lose the chip on your shoulder Denis. It's not needed. 

StlAlex wrote: ↑

8:41 PM - May 28

dbInSouthCity wrote:

soulardx wrote: ↑

5:02 PM - May 28

Fair enough!

So, let me ask this - how do you specifically propose that STL buck post-Covid nationwide trends on jobs moving *out of* downtowns. A trend that is even more pronounced in STL. I know you said it should be someone's entire job but certainly you have ideas.

I think talking jobs/housing/restaurants before addressing downtowns core challenge - actual and perceived anti-social disorder/crime - is putting the cart before the horse. So, here's an out-there idea to address the core issue - deploy the National Guard on every corner in that problem area 24/7.  Same with the areas around Busch. 

you offer companies that are downtown 3% of their employees gross payroll if they spent 35 hours a week in the office in downtown.  For Stifel thats like $10M a year.   And House Bill 3231 just happens to do exactly that....its like as if people have been working on this 

Who determines what is downtown and what isn't?

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From the bill language, I believe that St. Louis has about 6 square miles of land to work with. That means it could easily fit in all of downtown, downtown west, midtown, and parts of near north and south city depending on how the map is drawn. That could really make development feasible in areas it would have never been feasible before and supercharge development in areas that need that final push.

StlAlex wrote: ↑

8:41 PM - May 28

dbInSouthCity wrote:

soulardx wrote: ↑

5:02 PM - May 28

Fair enough!

So, let me ask this - how do you specifically propose that STL buck post-Covid nationwide trends on jobs moving *out of* downtowns. A trend that is even more pronounced in STL. I know you said it should be someone's entire job but certainly you have ideas.

I think talking jobs/housing/restaurants before addressing downtowns core challenge - actual and perceived anti-social disorder/crime - is putting the cart before the horse. So, here's an out-there idea to address the core issue - deploy the National Guard on every corner in that problem area 24/7.  Same with the areas around Busch. 

you offer companies that are downtown 3% of their employees gross payroll if they spent 35 hours a week in the office in downtown.  For Stifel thats like $10M a year.   And House Bill 3231 just happens to do exactly that....its like as if people have been working on this 

Who determines what is downtown and what isn't?

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Downtown West is generally measured beginning from west of Tucker to Jefferson. Traditionally, downtown proper has always been accounted for as everything within the area between Tucker to the riverfront. Actual downtown, not including d-town west, is pretty much the original footprint of the boundary of the original settlement. See map from 1835 here:

I would like to see a tendril of the downtown district to snake down Broadway then open up to include the Lemp Brewery complex. 

SRQ2STL wrote: ↑

1:54 PM - May 27

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑

1:37 AM - May 27

Those vacant floors might be a good contender for conversion into residential under the new incentive program. With the angle the building sits at, you can have some interesting views.

There are certainly plenty of them in this tower. From having done rather routine walk-throughs when I was there, most of them are reno ready. Just simple drywall, mostly. I don't remember precisely which 2 floors, but there is a suite with a floating staircase between. But that's a one-off. 

One of the major issues that the tower has, though, is with the HVAC system. Extremely dated...each floor has built-in window units, each with its own engine. They broke down constantly and several times spat out thick, noxious smoke and soot after literally catching on fire.  Witnessed flaming window vents a couple of times. Also, the cooling tower on the roof had constant issues. A couple of times, we'd go up there because a tenant complained about water coming through the ceiling, and the cooling tower was a literal volcano of water. Spewing and spitting like a geyser. The entire building needs a brand-new HVAC system. Otherwise, it badly needs elevator and escalator upgrades too. 

Since you have the scoop, is the HVAC issues seen as one of the reasons the tower is emptying?  Is it mismanagement?  Or is there just other broader issues (like US Trust just wanting to be in Clayton)?  I would imagine with lower than Clayton rents, this tower wouldn't be too hard to fill up if well managed.  That is, unless there is a larger issue like HVAC.  

Other buildings are not too hard to explain why they are emptying - AT&T lacked parking, 1010 Market lacks parking, Wainwright isn't in great shape, but 800 Market seems to be in good shape (at least from what i can tell).

Downtown today has ~500,000 square feet more occupied office space than Clayton.

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US Bank CEO will be visiting the STL office on Monday and they’ll host a town hall at Union station for all of their STL area employees

Just a corporate rah-rah session or will there be some sort of announcement?

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

1:22 PM - 2 days ago

US Bank CEO will be visiting the STL office on Monday and they’ll host a town hall at Union station for all of their STL area employees

I wonder what % of their holdings, and shares are from St. Louisans since they gobbled up most of the local banks here.  And they use it to build skyscrapers and football stadiums in Minneapolis.  Do we have any St. Louis-based banks anymore?