urbanSTL

I have spent time in the Metro East and there are some very nice neighborhoods over there. We could mention taxes, but I feel like the thing that holds the Metro East back is really the same thing that holds parts of the Missouri side back and that is lack of growth from outside the region. A lack of people moving to the metro area that have no preconceived notions or family history. Blank slates as it were. People who have a long history here tend to stay on their side of the river. I have lived in this region since 1997 and I have only met two people that I know of that have ever moved from Missouri to Illinois, and probably five or fewer that have moved from Illinois to Missouri. People on the east side drift east just like people on this side drift west. It's a hollowing out of the middle on both sides. 

It sucks that Clayton exists, but as STLOKC said, it does. They still exist close enough to the city to benefit the city. It sucks that they are leaving Downtown, but employees who currently live in the city won't be pressured to move like if they moved to Chesterfield, St. Charles, or even worse, out of the region. Future employees will still have the option to conveniently live in the city.

Moving forward, perhaps Clayton should be considered more of an unholy ally than a competitor. A bookend to the greater Central Corridor and directly connected by Metrolink. Perhaps they deserve STLs next great cultural attraction, whatever that might be, to bring in visitors and see what is one of the more shiny and vibrant areas of the region. The real enemy here is the suburban office park.

Another solution to this is getting the East Side back on track. The first order of business is rebuilding DTESTL. It wouldn't even take that much to get some momentum going, renovate a few key buildings on Collinsville and Missouri Ave, pop a few five over ones near the Metro station and boom. The CORE of the Metro East could be brought back to a positive trajectory for less than a billion dollars.  The Illinois side has a unique opportunity right now to grab people who don't want to leave STL but are disgusted by Missouri's state government.

Auggie wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

Another day another STL based company that leaves downtown. Our companies are just genuinely dumber than companies in Detroit or Cleveland. Zero civic pride whatsoever.

Idk if it is civic pride but when the region is experiencing tremendous job growth, it sucks that our companies keep driving downtown into the dirt. Other cities are building reputations for thriving downtowns with less job growth, stagnant populations, and otherwise negative perceptions because their companies are at least committing to downtown.

It stinks to see this over and over again

I think it would be a mistake to bet everything on office jobs staying in Downtown, and lets also not overestimate the impact of foot traffic taking in consideration the work from home policies of several employers. It's logical that companies want to be located in the "population center" and that's closer to Clayton.

One of the most important factors that would help downtown is the overall crime perception and we are going in the right direction on that point. That will make people more comfortable to visit and live in downtown. The vibrancy will make current employers in downtown decide it's good to stay there.
If the metro east stops losing population and more jobs are created in that area, that will contribute to shift the population center to Downtown.
Big efforts need to be made into residential conversion, the city should go all in on that. Having more residents living in downtown will be better than office jobs that leave after 5pm. 

I think the existence of the Clayton business district is kind of an enigma when it comes to the health of the region. On the one hand, it no doubt has attracted businesses from downtown that in different contexts might have stayed downtown. But Go Harv makes the point that at least those businesses have stayed in the more or less urban corridor of the region and probably contributed to the health of the West End and the neighborhoods around Forest Park. In cities without a "second downtown" what percentage of these businesses would actually have moved a lot farther than seven miles west? 

If the whole region was one city instead of a fragmented mess we would just have a Downtown Manhattan versus Midtown Manhattan thing going on. 

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

It sucks that Clayton exists, but as STLOKC said, it does. They still exist close enough to the city to benefit the city. It sucks that they are leaving Downtown, but employees who currently live in the city won't be pressured to move like if they moved to Chesterfield, St. Charles, or even worse, out of the region. Future employees will still have the option to conveniently live in the city.

Moving forward, perhaps Clayton should be considered more of an unholy ally than a competitor. A bookend to the greater Central Corridor. Perhaps they deserve STLs next great cultural attraction, whatever that might be, to bring in visitors and see what is one of the more shiny and vibrant areas of the region. The real enemy here is the suburban office park.

Another solution to this is getting the East Side back on track. The first order of business is rebuilding DTESTL. It wouldn't even take that much to get some momentum going, renovate a few key buildings on Collinsville and Missouri Ave, pop a few five over ones near the Metro station and boom. The CORE of the Metro East could be brought back to a positive trajectory for less than a billion dollars.  The Illinois side has a unique opportunity right now to grab people who don't want to leave STL but are disgusted by Missouri's state government.

DT EStL could be a gem but is emptied out. Downtown Belleville is already pretty good. Edwardsville, Collinsville, Alton and Granite City have improved in my opinion. I think metro east overall is a pretty solid place to live. The bottoms are definitely sparse.

Tho, I don’t know if anyone is moving to Illinois for better government. I get you’re referring to social issues and I also much more align with the Illinois state government right now on those but Illinois is perceived pretty poorly for fiscal responsibility and corruption. Probably has the worst governmental responsibility history of any state in the country. I’ve liked Pritzker’s job but the state is generally bleeding residents faster than any state outside of California. And people cite taxes and government in studies on that depopulation.

Chicago has been losing volume residents and they are going to focus there as they always have. They are putting lots of money and time into the loop to maintain it as its economic center and focusing on the core. No state probably favors a single major city more than Illinois has historically

The data is showing young people moving to small towns over other communities. Metro East has an advantage of being small towns with access to a major job market. Metro East doesn’t feel like suburbs but more a collection of charming small towns. I think that’s where they can be a draw. If a metrolink is added through Madison County to Edwardsville, it could be a really attractive place for its small town culture yet access to urban amenities and job opportunities.

Downtown East St. Louis could be ... okay.

Unfortunately, as much as we like to complain about the highways near downtown St. Louis, downtown East St. Louis has it so much dramatically worse. 

My Metro East hope is currently with Alton, Illinois, which seems to be getting investment in its downtown. 

Metro East has a few real opportunities for big growth.
- The I-255 and I-270 intersection has multiple projects planned and not yet announced. This intersection will become an even larger logistics center over the next five years.
- The 55 corridor from FanDuel Horse Racing, Cohokia Mounds, to WWT Raceway has an opportunity to become a big draw to the region with the new ownership.
- Mid-America Airport has the trajectory to become a strong cargo, logistics, and manufacturing airport. Obviously Boeing is in the air as a business but I expect to see more announcements.

Seems like you know a few things that I don't. 

Is WWT Raceway still contemplating an adjacent entertainment district? 

Rick Prieto wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

I think it would be a mistake to bet everything on office jobs staying in Downtown, and lets also not overestimate the impact of foot traffic taking in consideration the work from home policies of several employers. It's logical that companies want to be located in the "population center" and that's closer to Clayton.

One of the most important factors that would help downtown is the overall crime perception and we are going in the right direction on that point. That will make people more comfortable to visit and live in downtown. The vibrancy will make current employers in downtown decide it's good to stay there.
If the metro east stops losing population and more jobs are created in that area, that will contribute to shift the population center to Downtown.
Big efforts need to be made into residential conversion, the city should go all in on that. Having more residents living in downtown will be better than office jobs that leave after 5pm. 

We shouldn't base everything on downtown employment, and I generally think we don't. The issue with companies leaving these buildings has less to do with the employee numbers for me but more the building. There has been plenty of positive employee news this year with Anthem adding 200, Scale AI adding 200, AT&T apparently adding 200, etc. So, losing 200-300 from FH isn't the end of the world on that front. 

For me, they are leaving over 100,000 square feet of space in a building that is only 304,00 square feet is the bigger concern because losing the lease revenue is going to hurt the long-term ability for the building to remain financially viable. With less revenue, the building owner won't be able to make improvements and without upgrades and improvements, it becomes harder to attract new tenants. And this particular building, 200 N Broadway (a pretty cool looking building), will not be able to be made into apartments easily at all.

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

Metro East has a few real opportunities for big growth.
- Mid-America Airport has the trajectory to become a strong cargo, logistics, and manufacturing airport. Obviously Boeing is in the air as a business but I expect to see more announcements.

This one I’ll believe it when I see it. Both it and lambert have been trying to get more cargo for decades and still nothing. Not sure what would have changed with air cargo decreasing over that last few years.

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

Metro East has a few real opportunities for big growth.
- Mid-America Airport has the trajectory to become a strong cargo, logistics, and manufacturing airport. Obviously Boeing is in the air as a business but I expect to see more announcements.

This one I’ll believe it when I see it. Both it and lambert have been trying to get more cargo for decades and still nothing. Not sure what would have changed with air cargo decreasing over that last few years.

I don't see much of a trajectory unless a company like Amazon relocates its cargo hub from Cincinnati. 

Here are the Intelica skyline reports for Clayton and DTSTL

I think the city is in a good position that benefits downtown by utilizing a portion of the Rams Settlement funds by 1) making sure that convention space phase II build out is completed one way or another because drives foot traffic & hotel bookings just as much or more so then pro sports 2) securing and stabilizing some selected downtown buildings in order to leverage more housing development and 3) completing near north side street infrastructure improvement or continued corridor improvements connecting some really solid downtown areas with each other or even grants for site improvement on near downtown row/townhouse development.      

Another piece of the puzzle which everyone has talked about in one thread or another is the downtown community needs some viable playing fields/courts/recreational green space just not static park space.   Plenty of green space to be had downtown without needing to pull more taxable property out of the equipment.   I honestly don't think it would hurt downtown if a portion of mall is public playing fields/courts, especially towards west end of mall, where you literally have soccer stadium bookending the mall  (full disclosure, think the Twain structure needs a new home even if it is just further down the mall so the city garden  can encompass all three blocks).   Heck, you can replace on the items above with downtown recreational facilities 

dredger wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

I think the city is in a good position that benefits downtown by utilizing a portion of the Rams Settlement funds by 1) making sure that convention space phase II build out is completed one way or another because drives foot traffic & hotel bookings just as much or more so then pro sports 2) securing and stabilizing some selected downtown buildings in order to leverage more housing development and 3) completing near north side street infrastructure improvement or continued corridor improvements connecting some really solid downtown areas with each other or even grants for site improvement on near downtown row/townhouse development.      

Another piece of the puzzle which everyone has talked about in one thread or another is the downtown community needs some viable playing fields/courts/recreational green space just not static park space.   Plenty of green space to be had downtown without needing to pull more taxable property out of the equipment.   I honestly don't think it would hurt downtown if a portion of mall is public playing fields/courts, especially towards west end of mall, where you literally have soccer stadium bookending the mall  (full disclosure, think the Twain structure needs a new home even if it is just further down the mall so the city garden  can encompass all three blocks).   Heck, you can replace on the items above with downtown recreational facilities 

Keep the mall as art and plaza space because Brickline will run along it. With purposeful redevelopment, we could finally have a main retail boulevard with Market.

The parks adjacent to main gateway mall (Eternal Flame, Kauffman) could be opened for residential development if downtown residential gets hot.

The lots south of 40 towards Purina, Bottle District, and north of Landing along riverfront (where the Riverfront trail already runs through) would be great examples though for these type of amenities you’re talking about.

^ One thing I would push against in your thoughts is that I think Wash Ave is a much better fit for main retail boulevard.   Lets not forget, Retail like Office Worker has changed significantly in recent years due in part to Amazon/Online.  So I really think it will be limited in how much retail you will have downtown even if you can grow downtown residents.  Also, think you are limited how many spaces can really be developed by street level storefronts along Market.

So to me, Wash Ave your retail/services and Clark as your sports/entertainment corridors.  Market/Gateway Mall conveniently splits/green space between the two as you build up north/south cross streets.     

i just spent a week in Boise, ID for a conference. several blocks of 8th Street right outside the door of their conference center are closed to traffic and hoppin' with activity. Washington Ave should similarly be closed to traffic and bustling with shops and eateries.

urban_dilettante wrote:i just spent a week in Boise, ID for a conference. several blocks of 8th Street right outside the door of their conference center are closed to traffic and hoppin' with activity. Washington Ave should similarly be closed to traffic and bustling with shops and eateries.

I coincidentally also just spent about a week in Boise, and they have a fantastic downtown. It was incredibly clean, and the streets and sidewalks all were in great shape.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

addxb2 wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

Can we not do this sky is falling stuff? Touch grass folks. There are going to be losses in even a good market.

I mean, this is pretty bad press.  Sure, there is momentum and plenty of good things happening downtown, but this is a pretty ugly headline.  Probably the most interesting thing about this all is that FleishmanHillard, a PR firm that looks to control the narrative with press releases/news/etc., didn't seem to take more than 30 seconds to come up with a press release about this.  Pretty bizarre, tbh.  

The bad press won’t stop for a while business-wise. Downtown will get decent press with residential.

dredger wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

I think the city is in a good position that benefits downtown by utilizing a portion of the Rams Settlement funds by 1) making sure that convention space phase II build out is completed one way or another because drives foot traffic & hotel bookings just as much or more so then pro sports 2) securing and stabilizing some selected downtown buildings in order to leverage more housing development and 3) completing near north side street infrastructure improvement or continued corridor improvements connecting some really solid downtown areas with each other or even grants for site improvement on near downtown row/townhouse development.      

Another piece of the puzzle which everyone has talked about in one thread or another is the downtown community needs some viable playing fields/courts/recreational green space just not static park space.   Plenty of green space to be had downtown without needing to pull more taxable property out of the equipment.   I honestly don't think it would hurt downtown if a portion of mall is public playing fields/courts, especially towards west end of mall, where you literally have soccer stadium bookending the mall  (full disclosure, think the Twain structure needs a new home even if it is just further down the mall so the city garden  can encompass all three blocks).   Heck, you can replace on the items above with downtown recreational facilities 

The gateway mall master plan calls for fields and courts near the west end (between 15th and 18th) as amenities for nearby residential.  Still think thats the right idea for that section with some thoughtful sculpture and landcaping.   

But, this would also be feasible on the near north riverfront.  Nix or tunnelize Commercial and backfill the floodwall such that you can walk right to to the top of it (with a nice fence of course).  

No matter what you do, Market is not going to be a retail boulevard, and so the main brickline connection will just be to park space.   I think the correct alignment is down a fully pedestrianized Chestnut, but the Market alignment is locked in.  I would still say pedestrianize Chestnut for a few reasons:   1)It adds a lot more ped and bike only space to the brickline connection  2)crossing streets all the way from 20th to arch would be much safer at ped only signals, and  3)Unlike Market -Chestnut has activatable ground floor potential that would benefit it greatly by pedestrianizing the space between it and the greenspaces of the mall(think  of how it would connect the broad plazas of att and swb for instance) 

verdantruins wrote: ↑

Oct 16, 2024

dredger wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

I think the city is in a good position that benefits downtown by utilizing a portion of the Rams Settlement funds by 1) making sure that convention space phase II build out is completed one way or another because drives foot traffic & hotel bookings just as much or more so then pro sports 2) securing and stabilizing some selected downtown buildings in order to leverage more housing development and 3) completing near north side street infrastructure improvement or continued corridor improvements connecting some really solid downtown areas with each other or even grants for site improvement on near downtown row/townhouse development.      

Another piece of the puzzle which everyone has talked about in one thread or another is the downtown community needs some viable playing fields/courts/recreational green space just not static park space.   Plenty of green space to be had downtown without needing to pull more taxable property out of the equipment.   I honestly don't think it would hurt downtown if a portion of mall is public playing fields/courts, especially towards west end of mall, where you literally have soccer stadium bookending the mall  (full disclosure, think the Twain structure needs a new home even if it is just further down the mall so the city garden  can encompass all three blocks).   Heck, you can replace on the items above with downtown recreational facilities 

The gateway mall master plan calls for fields and courts near the west end (between 15th and 18th) as amenities for nearby residential.  Still think thats the right idea for that section with some thoughtful sculpture and landcaping.   

But, this would also be feasible on the near north riverfront.  Nix or tunnelize Commercial and backfill the floodwall such that you can walk right to to the top of it (with a nice fence of course).  

No matter what you do, Market is not going to be a retail boulevard, and so the main brickline connection will just be to park space.   I think the correct alignment is down a fully pedestrianized Chestnut, but the Market alignment is locked in.  I would still say pedestrianize Chestnut for a few reasons:   1)It adds a lot more ped and bike only space to the brickline connection  2)crossing streets all the way from 20th to arch would be much safer at ped only signals, and  3)Unlike Market -Chestnut has activatable ground floor potential that would benefit it greatly by pedestrianizing the space between it and the greenspaces of the mall(think  of how it would connect the broad plazas of att and swb for instance) 

Yes, when I say “Market”, I am really talking about Chestnut and Market along Gateway Mall. The street activation is really poor along that corridor. It will always have the most potential to me though for being a “grand avenue” a la Michigan Ave, 5th, Rodeo on a smaller scale. From CITY park to Arch, it has some elements for such a draw that just can’t be replicated. There would need to be significant repurpose work done though.

Obviously Wash Ave is the most filled out commercial street. My idealized world would be that Wash Ave and N/S street retail would be supported by a strong resident and worker population downtown, and Gateway Mall could be a big tourist draw, green space, festival grounds, patio bars and restaurants, etc.

I would like to see some street in the metro to go pedestrian mall. Delmar Loop would pronably be the best candidate for that currently. Euclid/Maryland Plaza probably second. Get a streetcar running down Wash Ave and Broadway and we can talk Wash Ave too

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

Oct 16, 2024

verdantruins wrote: ↑

Oct 16, 2024

dredger wrote: ↑

Oct 15, 2024

I think the city is in a good position that benefits downtown by utilizing a portion of the Rams Settlement funds by 1) making sure that convention space phase II build out is completed one way or another because drives foot traffic & hotel bookings just as much or more so then pro sports 2) securing and stabilizing some selected downtown buildings in order to leverage more housing development and 3) completing near north side street infrastructure improvement or continued corridor improvements connecting some really solid downtown areas with each other or even grants for site improvement on near downtown row/townhouse development.      

Another piece of the puzzle which everyone has talked about in one thread or another is the downtown community needs some viable playing fields/courts/recreational green space just not static park space.   Plenty of green space to be had downtown without needing to pull more taxable property out of the equipment.   I honestly don't think it would hurt downtown if a portion of mall is public playing fields/courts, especially towards west end of mall, where you literally have soccer stadium bookending the mall  (full disclosure, think the Twain structure needs a new home even if it is just further down the mall so the city garden  can encompass all three blocks).   Heck, you can replace on the items above with downtown recreational facilities 

The gateway mall master plan calls for fields and courts near the west end (between 15th and 18th) as amenities for nearby residential.  Still think thats the right idea for that section with some thoughtful sculpture and landcaping.   

But, this would also be feasible on the near north riverfront.  Nix or tunnelize Commercial and backfill the floodwall such that you can walk right to to the top of it (with a nice fence of course).  

No matter what you do, Market is not going to be a retail boulevard, and so the main brickline connection will just be to park space.   I think the correct alignment is down a fully pedestrianized Chestnut, but the Market alignment is locked in.  I would still say pedestrianize Chestnut for a few reasons:   1)It adds a lot more ped and bike only space to the brickline connection  2)crossing streets all the way from 20th to arch would be much safer at ped only signals, and  3)Unlike Market -Chestnut has activatable ground floor potential that would benefit it greatly by pedestrianizing the space between it and the greenspaces of the mall(think  of how it would connect the broad plazas of att and swb for instance) 

Yes, when I say “Market”, I am really talking about Chestnut and Market along Gateway Mall. The street activation is really poor along that corridor. It will always have the most potential to me though for being a “grand avenue” a la Michigan Ave, 5th, Rodeo on a smaller scale. From CITY park to Arch, it has some elements for such a draw that just can’t be replicated. There would need to be significant repurpose work done though.

Obviously Wash Ave is the most filled out commercial street. My idealized world would be that Wash Ave and N/S street retail would be supported by a strong resident and worker population downtown, and Gateway Mall could be a big tourist draw, green space, festival grounds, patio bars and restaurants, etc.

I would like to see some street in the metro to go pedestrian mall. Delmar Loop would pronably be the best candidate for that currently. Euclid/Maryland Plaza probably second. Get a streetcar running down Wash Ave and Broadway and we can talk Wash Ave too

Market will never be activated until it undergoes a major road diet, it's 5-6 driving lanes, 6-8 including parking, it's a not a pleasant place to be a pedestrian.

"it's a not a pleasant place to be a pedestrian"
Nor is Tucker sections of Olive, Chouteau and..........