Just curious... At this point, if incentives to stay downtown are not being offered, is that on the table for the City? The challenge gets even tougher, to fill these empty buildings. I worked there years ago. That building was a great place to work. Not sure today, as I have not stepped foot in there in years. Is 200 N. Broadway in good shape?
This story has become an amazing campfire story over the years… BUT no it had nothing to do with Ed “Big Tex” Whitacre not getting into St Louis Country Club. Quite the contrary, he was admitted into the SLCC membership…. What happened was the state of Texas gave him an amazing incentive package, he went to then MO Gov Mel Carahan and asked for Missouri to match Texas’ offer, Mel declined, Ed asked can you get close, Mel said No…dredger wrote: ↑Oct 13, 2024^ I think and more nuanced history, if I got it right, is that Southwest Bell used to be HQ in St. Louis and then moved to San Antonio, TX (the country club snub is the story I get from my wife). Then, after a spate of Bell mergers the company then bought AT&T but proceeded and kept the more recognizable AT&T name. What most people probably don't understand is that AT&T as a smaller long distance and cell phone company was bought out. At that point the new AT&T moved its HQ from San Antonio to Dallas passing up the likes of Atlanta, St. Louis and a few former Bell HQs,.
Since then a couple big changes, AT&T did a major property downsize such as selling 909 Chestnut, where my wife use to work, as well as a number of major regional offices. ATT sold their Northern California regional office in San Ramon, my wife's current office, back to the Bishop Ranch developer and has rented a lot less space since. The next big thing has been the last two years were there is more consolidation going on with some specific departments and offices jobs are being moved from regional offices to either Dallas, our future home, and or Atlanta.
ATT still keeping a fair share of employees in regional offices but my wife had a number of St. Louis co worker jobs are being moved to Dallas as well. The jobs are moving so have the choice of moving on your own dime and or calling it quits. None the less, nice to see ATT consolidating remaining St. Louis jobs back to downtown and believe that is trend for most of their metro areas they have presence in. But also bitter sweet for some.
The rest is history…
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Any idea how many floors are still occupied?
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This is what the city should do with its surplus imo. Just start offering suburban businesses cold hard cash to move DT.DogtownBnR wrote: ↑Oct 14, 2024Just curious... At this point, if incentives to stay downtown are not being offered, is that on the table for the City? The challenge gets even tougher, to fill these empty buildings. I worked there years ago. That building was a great place to work. Not sure today, as I have not stepped foot in there in years. Is 200 N. Broadway in good shape?
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I think 2 fully and 4 partial and 4 fully vacant. They’re about 25,000 sq each
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It’s really a shame that Fleishman is leaving DT, but glad to see they are staying in the region.
With them leaving and Rodgers Townsend closing a few months ago, it’s really the end of an era in downtown St Louis. It was once a PR/Advertising agency powerhouse.
With them leaving and Rodgers Townsend closing a few months ago, it’s really the end of an era in downtown St Louis. It was once a PR/Advertising agency powerhouse.
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This totally misses the mark, I don’t even know what the mark is but this ain’t it
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Yeah that’s a confusing response. They are praising them for staying in the region while trying to make a case for the urgency of keeping businesses downtown? Let’s be a little more direct in our criticism of companies leaving downtown for Clayton. Staying in the region isn’t good enough.dbInSouthCity wrote:This totally misses the mark, I don’t even know what the mark is but this ain’t it
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am guessing some company will be moving to 200 N Broadway or somewhere close to Washington Blvd. Any takers?
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Does anyone know how many fleishmanhillard employees there are in downtown? I see this as a big bruise or black eye. I think it’s critically urgent for downtown leaders to offer whatever incentives it takes to keep employers downtown. Clayton & surrounding St.Louis county suburbs are leeches and won’t stop sucking till downtown is void of anything. Our leaders must do better than this if they want downtown St.Louis to remain the epicenter of the region
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I don’t know the more recent numbers, though I think their workforce numbers in St Louis has declined over the years.PlatinumBlues wrote:Does anyone know how many fleishmanhillard employees there are in downtown? I see this as a big bruise or black eye. I think it’s critically urgent for downtown leaders to offer whatever incentives it takes to keep employers downtown. Clayton & surrounding St.Louis county suburbs are leeches and won’t stop sucking till downtown is void of anything. Our leaders must do better than this if they want downtown St.Louis to remain the epicenter of the region
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In this instance I think calling the suburbs leeches unfairly places the blame on them when it’s really on Fleishman. I don’t think they were really wooed by Clayton were they? They chose to leave and the blame should be on them.
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If they’re taking 40,000 sq feet, can’t be more than 200-250
Downtown still has more jobs in 2024 than it did in 2023. The balance of those jobs may not be the same, as office work goes down and other jobs go up but it’s still a net +.
Although there have been some office wins lately too, the 200 jobs at City SC HQ, 200 at anthem, 200 scale AI, 200 at AT&T.
Downtown still has more jobs in 2024 than it did in 2023. The balance of those jobs may not be the same, as office work goes down and other jobs go up but it’s still a net +.
Although there have been some office wins lately too, the 200 jobs at City SC HQ, 200 at anthem, 200 scale AI, 200 at AT&T.
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Looks like Greater STL is still playing defense tbh.
The memo seems like a deflection of blame for losing FH
The memo seems like a deflection of blame for losing FH
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Even if they decided to go on their own it doesn’t disqualify the suburbs from being leeches cause they basically are. Most jobs in downtown Clayton aren’t from outside of St.Louis I would think a great majority are from downtown St.Louis. The exodus has a great deal of influence on other’s decisions either way I still think there’s a great upside to downtown & good that’s on the way fingers crossed I’m ready for some totally unexpected good news for downtownDebaliviere91 wrote:I don’t know the more recent numbers, though I think their workforce numbers in St Louis has declined over the years.PlatinumBlues wrote:Does anyone know how many fleishmanhillard employees there are in downtown? I see this as a big bruise or black eye. I think it’s critically urgent for downtown leaders to offer whatever incentives it takes to keep employers downtown. Clayton & surrounding St.Louis county suburbs are leeches and won’t stop sucking till downtown is void of anything. Our leaders must do better than this if they want downtown St.Louis to remain the epicenter of the region
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In this instance I think calling the suburbs leeches unfairly places the blame on them when it’s really on Fleishman. I don’t think they were really wooed by Clayton were they? They chose to leave and the blame should be on them.
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I don't think it does a lot of good to "blame" Clayton at this point. Clayton exists. It has existed for 150 years. Nobody in power there was alive during the great divorce, and nobody still making decisions was making any kind of decisions when the current dynamic began in earnest 40-50 years ago. Unless I am mistaken they did not actively woo Fleishman-Hillard. What are they supposed to do at this point - blow up their office stock and turn those acres into single family housing? The real problem, it seems to me, is that the center of gravity in the region has moved so unbelievably far west. Illinois is losing population and outer St. Charles is gaining it. If you are a business person that is making decisions primarily on the basis of something other than civic conscience, and your customers and employees are moving inexorably west, then that is what you are going to do.
The City needs to double its population and really, the Metro East needs to double its population. I know, that's all self-evident. But until that happens, then for a lot of businesses it just doesn't make a lot of economic sense to be downtown.
The City needs to double its population and really, the Metro East needs to double its population. I know, that's all self-evident. But until that happens, then for a lot of businesses it just doesn't make a lot of economic sense to be downtown.
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That’s like saying it doesn’t sense to open a business in chesterfield, you know since there is more spending in Downtown STL last year than entire city of chesterfield.stlokc wrote: ↑Oct 14, 2024
The City needs to double its population and really, the Metro East needs to double its population. I know, that's all self-evident. But until that happens, then for a lot of businesses it just doesn't make a lot of economic sense to be downtown.
People don’t realize how big of a problem slow to no growth STL county is to the entire region. At one point between 2020-2023 this was new apartments additions
And here it is also since 2016 with single family included
That does illustrate the problem. On that top chart, it would seem that there have been 38,180 units built west of the city and 11,422 in the city proper. (I did not count the numbers for Jefferson Co since it is south and not west). I would be curious to see the comparable numbers for Illinois. I bet it's far less than the 38,180 required to keep downtown at its relative position in 2016.
The gut rehab numbers in the city are great but I don't know how many of those are going from vacant to occupied, or from being occupied by 1-2 people to being occupied by 4. For example. My suspicion is it's a lot of apartments that were built for families 50-75 years ago and are now occupied by a much smaller number of people.
The center of population just marches westward.
The gut rehab numbers in the city are great but I don't know how many of those are going from vacant to occupied, or from being occupied by 1-2 people to being occupied by 4. For example. My suspicion is it's a lot of apartments that were built for families 50-75 years ago and are now occupied by a much smaller number of people.
The center of population just marches westward.
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Why would a white collar business deciding where to locate office space care about the level of spend in one place vs another? I don’t think your Chesterfield comparison makes any sense in this context.dbInSouthCity wrote:That’s like saying it doesn’t sense to open a business in chesterfield, you know since there is more spending in Downtown STL last year than entire city of chesterfield.stlokc wrote: ↑Oct 14, 2024
The City needs to double its population and really, the Metro East needs to double its population. I know, that's all self-evident. But until that happens, then for a lot of businesses it just doesn't make a lot of economic sense to be downtown.
People don’t realize how big of a problem slow to no growth STL county is to the entire region. At one point between 2020-2023 this was new apartments additions
And here it is also since 2016 with single family included
The numbers you’ve laid out above show our population moving west and that’s a problem.
I think often times decisions on office space can come down to commute preferences and I’m certain Clayton was more desirable for Fleishman associates for that reason.
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I think the issue is they aren’t a downtown only organization. Even in their website it says “Our work covers the 15-county, bi-state St. Louis metropolitan statistical area. We focus our efforts on creating inclusive economic growth in every portion of this region.”Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Oct 14, 2024Yeah that’s a confusing response. They are praising them for staying in the region while trying to make a case for the urgency of keeping businesses downtown? Let’s be a little more direct in our criticism of companies leaving downtown for Clayton. Staying in the region isn’t good enough.dbInSouthCity wrote:This totally misses the mark, I don’t even know what the mark is but this ain’t it
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So while GSL probably preferred they stayed downtown, they stayed in the region and that’s what their actual mission is. So they can’t really blast them for leaving downtown when they are staying in the region, which is GSL’s goal.
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1980s flight to the suburbs in full effect in St. Louis, so sick of the disinvestment in our Downtown.
Another day another STL based company that leaves downtown. Our companies are just genuinely dumber than companies in Detroit or Cleveland. Zero civic pride whatsoever.
Can we not do this sky is falling stuff? Touch grass folks. There are going to be losses in even a good market.
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Let's not make this into a storm in a teacup. I am sure we will have good things to come.
@jshank83 what's the guarantee that they did not revise their `Mission` in the days leading up to the announcement?
@jshank83 what's the guarantee that they did not revise their `Mission` in the days leading up to the announcement?
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The office market is pathetic. The bleeding is non stop and even beyond that there is a constant battle against companies who are still there that every time their lease expires it seems to be they are not committed and considering their options. Look at the next phase of BPV, only interested parties in the potential office phase are existing DT companies who if they don't get what they want will follow the sheep west. AT&T building no closer to finding occupancy.addxb2 wrote: ↑Oct 15, 2024Can we not do this sky is falling stuff? Touch grass folks. There are going to be losses in even a good market.
And it's only going to get worse when Chesterfield gets going with it's fake Downtown. They will need those tenants from somewhere in a market that is already grossly overbuilt with suburban office space for its size.
I'm not sure what the solution is. The thing is whilst they may not be as super rich as parts of West County, Metro East has some really nice areas like Edwardsville, O'fallon amongst others. Is it a dick waving rat race for people to buy a Mcmansion and a big truck in a good school district out West? Does East St. Louis tarnish the whole of the IL side in a way that north city or county doesn't on the MO side?
I wish I knew but there is no end to this.