Delmar Loop Trolley

sc4mayor · PostOct 18, 2022#22512022-10-18T17:10+00:00

^^ That’s pretty much it.

I can see it working extremely well as a free, seasonal tourist attraction for Loop visitors. It just didn’t help that the thing had a bad sales pitch and poor execution from the start.

It never should have been sold as transit, but a gimmicky (and free) tourist attraction for Loop patrons, and considering the FTA funds involved, Bi-State should have been a partner/failsafe from day one.

I would be willing to bet had Bi-State been involved from the start it probably would have never closed. Most likely would have ended up seasonal, which still would have come with a fair amount of local hand waving… Still would have saved a ton of column inches in the local papers though lol.

MarkHaversham · PostOct 18, 2022#22522022-10-18T18:32+00:00

Starting up during COVID might have doomed it even with good management. Although on the other hand maybe it would've started a couple years ago with better management anyway.

STLEnginerd · PostOct 18, 2022#22532022-10-18T20:58+00:00

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑
Sep 18, 2014
^ I understand the necessity for modesty. And and "olde-time" trolley car has a certain cache but its still not the best choice of possible routes for such a streetcar. There isn't a lot of sense in connecting two sequential metro link stops. Metro link stops are (or at least should be) located such that a reasonable walking distance will get you half the distance between two stops. Thus creating an opportunity for dense walkable development without having excessive stops which slow rail travel. This is not always the case as seen in the massive gap between Grand and Union Station but it a rule of thumb in dense areas. It makes little sense to provide a sixth mode (car, bicycle, walking, metro bus, metro link, and now trolley) when there are other routes that lack the fifth. Example Downtown Wash Ave to the AB brewery which would be my fist choice for such a service.

Of course the Loop route has something that all the better ones lacked. Joe Edwards.

The problem I've always had is that an unsuccessful route is a very dangerous and effective weapon to be wielded against further expansions and I do feel the loop trolley will be a failure. Sorry Joe, hope I'm wrong.

while we are going back in time to correct mistakes...

brianadler6545 · PostOct 20, 2022#22542022-10-20T22:34+00:00

I’m feeling more hostile to the trolley this evening. I was biking on delmar and got caught in the trolley tracks in the middle of the delmar and skinker intersection and wiped out. I’m mostly okay (no broken bones, just a lot of scrapes), bikes a bit busted.

It’s either bike on the street or on the sidewalk here. It needs bike infrastructure badly to prevent dumb people like me who bike on the street.

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symphonicpoet · PostOct 21, 2022#22552022-10-21T04:50+00:00

^I don't think I'd call you dumb. It's a tough call at the best of times. We could absolutely use better bike infrastructure. That said, I sincerely hope bicycles and trolleys can learn to coexist . . . again.

framer · PostOct 21, 2022#22562022-10-21T12:22+00:00

As has been mentioned many times before; streetcars and bicycles seem to get along fine in European cities. I don't know what they know that we don't, but as with so many things urban, we could learn a lot from them.

brianadler6545 · PostOct 21, 2022#22572022-10-21T12:37+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote:^I don't think I'd call you dumb. It's a tough call at the best of times. We could absolutely use better bike infrastructure. That said, I sincerely hope bicycles and trolleys can learn to coexist . . . again.

Haha, thank you.

I hope so too. One thing I was wondering, after seeing my fat tire completely engrossed in the track before hitting the ground, are our trolley tracks wider than most modern streetcar tracks? I know our trolleys are historical replicas and what not, so perhaps this wouldn’t be an issue with more modern systems?

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imran · PostOct 21, 2022#22582022-10-21T12:46+00:00

brianadler6545 wrote: ↑
Oct 20, 2022
I’m feeling more hostile to the trolley this evening. I was biking on delmar and got caught in the trolley tracks in the middle of the delmar and skinker intersection and wiped out. I’m mostly okay (no broken bones, just a lot of scrapes), bikes a bit busted.

It’s either bike on the street or on the sidewalk here. It needs bike infrastructure badly to prevent dumb people like me who bike on the street.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is going to sound more snarky than it’s meant but were you not aware of all the signs on Delmar warning against this?

brianadler6545 · PostOct 21, 2022#22592022-10-21T13:53+00:00

imran wrote:
brianadler6545 wrote: ↑
Oct 20, 2022
I’m feeling more hostile to the trolley this evening. I was biking on delmar and got caught in the trolley tracks in the middle of the delmar and skinker intersection and wiped out. I’m mostly okay (no broken bones, just a lot of scrapes), bikes a bit busted.

It’s either bike on the street or on the sidewalk here. It needs bike infrastructure badly to prevent dumb people like me who bike on the street.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is going to sound more snarky than it’s meant but were you not aware of all the signs on Delmar warning against this?

No worries, nope - wasn’t really aware. To be honest, even if there are signs warning against this, there are also sharrows as you get onto delmar from Des Peres that seem to indicate biking is permissible there.

It’s not as though I was unaware of the trolley tracks either. I’ve advocated to continue trolley operations so we don’t risk future transit funding from the feds too. I still believe that (begrudgingly), but I think it surprised me just how easy it was to get caught in the tracks.

I’m still not entirely sure what a biker is to do going west of forest park. Biking on forest park parkway is a no-go. All the residential streets south of delmar have arbitrary blocks/many dead ends, delmar is scary itself, so, what then is a biker to do? It is strange how this area of the region has so few even passable options.

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danke0 · PostOct 21, 2022#22602022-10-21T15:46+00:00

West of FoPa you can use the greenway through WU, or Wydown, or Parkview, which has a lot of secret paths and alleys and such like that.

SeattleNative · PostOct 21, 2022#22612022-10-21T20:10+00:00

brianadler6545 wrote:
imran wrote:
brianadler6545 wrote: ↑
Oct 20, 2022
I’m feeling more hostile to the trolley this evening. I was biking on delmar and got caught in the trolley tracks in the middle of the delmar and skinker intersection and wiped out. I’m mostly okay (no broken bones, just a lot of scrapes), bikes a bit busted.

It’s either bike on the street or on the sidewalk here. It needs bike infrastructure badly to prevent dumb people like me who bike on the street.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is going to sound more snarky than it’s meant but were you not aware of all the signs on Delmar warning against this?
No worries, nope - wasn’t really aware. To be honest, even if there are signs warning against this, there are also sharrows as you get onto delmar from Des Peres that seem to indicate biking is permissible there.

It’s not as though I was unaware of the trolley tracks either. I’ve advocated to continue trolley operations so we don’t risk future transit funding from the feds too. I still believe that (begrudgingly), but I think it surprised me just how easy it was to get caught in the tracks.

I’m still not entirely sure what a biker is to do going west of forest park. Biking on forest park parkway is a no-go. All the residential streets south of delmar have arbitrary blocks/many dead ends, delmar is scary itself, so, what then is a biker to do? It is strange how this area of the region has so few even passable options.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the answer is to either go through Wash U’s campus, on Vernon/Balson, or on Wydown.

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brianadler6545 · PostOct 21, 2022#22622022-10-21T22:04+00:00

SeattleNative wrote:
brianadler6545 wrote:
imran wrote: This is going to sound more snarky than it’s meant but were you not aware of all the signs on Delmar warning against this?
No worries, nope - wasn’t really aware. To be honest, even if there are signs warning against this, there are also sharrows as you get onto delmar from Des Peres that seem to indicate biking is permissible there.

It’s not as though I was unaware of the trolley tracks either. I’ve advocated to continue trolley operations so we don’t risk future transit funding from the feds too. I still believe that (begrudgingly), but I think it surprised me just how easy it was to get caught in the tracks.

I’m still not entirely sure what a biker is to do going west of forest park. Biking on forest park parkway is a no-go. All the residential streets south of delmar have arbitrary blocks/many dead ends, delmar is scary itself, so, what then is a biker to do? It is strange how this area of the region has so few even passable options.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think the answer is to either go through Wash U’s campus, on Vernon/Balson, or on Wydown.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I suppose you’re probably right, it is just unfortunate how much space that leaves in between. Talk about inefficient routes!

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SeattleNative · PostOct 22, 2022#22632022-10-22T00:20+00:00

brianadler6545 wrote:
SeattleNative wrote:
brianadler6545 wrote: No worries, nope - wasn’t really aware. To be honest, even if there are signs warning against this, there are also sharrows as you get onto delmar from Des Peres that seem to indicate biking is permissible there.

It’s not as though I was unaware of the trolley tracks either. I’ve advocated to continue trolley operations so we don’t risk future transit funding from the feds too. I still believe that (begrudgingly), but I think it surprised me just how easy it was to get caught in the tracks.

I’m still not entirely sure what a biker is to do going west of forest park. Biking on forest park parkway is a no-go. All the residential streets south of delmar have arbitrary blocks/many dead ends, delmar is scary itself, so, what then is a biker to do? It is strange how this area of the region has so few even passable options.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think the answer is to either go through Wash U’s campus, on Vernon/Balson, or on Wydown.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I suppose you’re probably right, it is just unfortunate how much space that leaves in between. Talk about inefficient routes!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. The private streets of the west side create some limitations for pedestrians/cyclists (and I suppose cars too, but I don’t care as much about that and it may be a feature rather than a bug in that case).

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Mapguy · PostOct 22, 2022#22642022-10-22T15:45+00:00

brianadler6545 wrote:
imran wrote:
brianadler6545 wrote: ↑
Oct 20, 2022
I’m feeling more hostile to the trolley this evening. I was biking on delmar and got caught in the trolley tracks in the middle of the delmar and skinker intersection and wiped out. I’m mostly okay (no broken bones, just a lot of scrapes), bikes a bit busted.

It’s either bike on the street or on the sidewalk here. It needs bike infrastructure badly to prevent dumb people like me who bike on the street.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This is going to sound more snarky than it’s meant but were you not aware of all the signs on Delmar warning against this?
No worries, nope - wasn’t really aware. To be honest, even if there are signs warning against this, there are also sharrows as you get onto delmar from Des Peres that seem to indicate biking is permissible there.

It’s not as though I was unaware of the trolley tracks either. I’ve advocated to continue trolley operations so we don’t risk future transit funding from the feds too. I still believe that (begrudgingly), but I think it surprised me just how easy it was to get caught in the tracks.

I’m still not entirely sure what a biker is to do going west of forest park. Biking on forest park parkway is a no-go. All the residential streets south of delmar have arbitrary blocks/many dead ends, delmar is scary itself, so, what then is a biker to do? It is strange how this area of the region has so few even passable options.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

These are the paths that cut through the western end of Parkview. There is also a path along Melville from all the way up at Vernon that goes all the way down into the South 40 of Wash U. These kinda paths are all over St. Louis City and the inner ring suburbs. They are not usually marked and in the case of Limit walk, the north/south path in the middle of Parkview it’s gate is now locked with a pass code.

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eee123 · PostOct 29, 2022#22652022-10-29T04:00+00:00

The trolley would be so much more useful with a schedule. How can you ride a once-per-hour train without a schedule? They know the time a round trip takes.

I tried to ride it the other day. Got off the Metro at Forest Park at 6pm and walked toward the Loop along the trolley route. First spotted the trolley after a mile walk, near the Delmar Loop station. It was heading east, the opposite direction I was, so I didn't hop on it. It was 6:30 pm (and it shuts down at 7), so it likely wasn't going to even come back by.

So how does anyone ride it without devoting an excessive amount of time to standing around?

shadrach · PostOct 29, 2022#22662022-10-29T17:30+00:00

Metro is running the trolley operations, sounds about right.

Heck, I’ve waited over 60 min. for the ‘20 min.-frequency’ #11 to show up. And the southbound #16 is nonexistent some evenings.

symphonicpoet · PostOct 29, 2022#22672022-10-29T22:36+00:00

^Even the No. 70 isn't what it's supposed to be right now. I've ridden it in the evening when there were seemingly two busses on the entire route, which is really pretty bad for a route that long and that important.

stlgasm · PostJan 19, 2023#22682023-01-19T05:17+00:00

Philly does it RIGHT! Nothing beats the PCC streetcars-- why couldn't we get THESE babies screeching down Delmar instead of the replica vintage trolleys?? After all, the majority of PCC cars were built right here in St. Louis by St. Louis Car Company. How cool that Philly is investing in their surface railway system to keep it functional, safe, modern and authentic for a new generation? I actually rode the Girard Ave PCC streetcar on my last visit to Philly and it was awesome (and well-used).

Check this out:
SEPTA working to bring historic trolley rides back to Philly

symphonicpoet · PostJan 19, 2023#22692023-01-19T05:50+00:00

^I could get behind the PCCs if they'll negotiate the curves. Does MoT take their (SEPTA) PCC all the way around their loop?

PeterXCV · PostJan 19, 2023#22702023-01-19T13:31+00:00

stlgasm wrote: ↑
Jan 19, 2023
Philly does it RIGHT! Nothing beats the PCC streetcars-- why couldn't we get THESE babies screeching down Delmar instead of the replica vintage trolleys?? After all, the majority of PCC cars were built right here in St. Louis by St. Louis Car Company. How cool that Philly is investing in their surface railway system to keep it functional, safe, modern and authentic for a new generation? I actually rode the Girard Ave PCC streetcar on my last visit to Philly and it was awesome (and well-used).

Check this out:
SEPTA working to bring historic trolley rides back to Philly

I could agree with you that PCC cars would be better but Philly is not a great example. I lived there for a few years and sometimes their Trolley line was substituted with buses for 18 months at a time or longer. SEPTA (the transit authority there) also closed its last 3 trolley lines in 1992, and restored the Girard line in 2005. The others (including one that was probably the longest trolley in the world!) they promised to restore but never have or admit that they're not coming back.

Mark Groth · PostJan 19, 2023#22712023-01-19T14:16+00:00

I was talking to a guy from KCMO yesterday and he was gushing over the impact of their streetcar line. And here we sit. The ones in Cincy and Portland, OR are pretty nice as well. The Trolley is cute for what it is, a tourist/little kid/family activity. But we need streetcars on Jefferson or DT to Forest Park...

quincunx · PostJun 26, 2024#22722024-06-26T18:21+00:00

Taxable sales still haven't recovered from the pandemic.

Inflation-Adjusted Loop Trolley TDD Taxable Sales and Use 2023.png (24.33KiB)

goat314 · PostJun 26, 2024#22732024-06-26T20:05+00:00

quincunx wrote: ↑
Jun 26, 2024
Taxable sales still haven't recovered from the pandemic.Inflation-Adjusted Loop Trolley TDD Taxable Sales and Use 2023.png

I feel the Loop is too entertainment focused. It would be more sustainable long term with a lot more residential density on Delmar, especially near the Metrolink station. Unfortunately, there has been a lot of NIMBYISM in the surrounding neighborhoods. There is really no excuse in the East Loop for Delmar not to have a bunch of mixed use density. The East Loop is still kind of sketchy in my opinion.

quincunx · PostJun 26, 2024#22742024-06-26T20:26+00:00

Indeed, relying on people to drive in is folly. WashU needs to start building. I don think NIMBYs have killed the proposal for the vacant Commerce Bank site yet.

dredger · PostJun 27, 2024#22752024-06-27T01:21+00:00

goat314 wrote: ↑
Jun 26, 2024
quincunx wrote: ↑
Jun 26, 2024
Taxable sales still haven't recovered from the pandemic.Inflation-Adjusted Loop Trolley TDD Taxable Sales and Use 2023.png
I feel the Loop is too entertainment focused. It would be more sustainable long term with a lot more residential density on Delmar, especially near the Metrolink station. Unfortunately, there has been a lot of NIMBYISM in the surrounding neighborhoods. There is really no excuse in the East Loop for Delmar not to have a bunch of mixed use density. The East Loop is still kind of sketchy in my opinion.

Agree on being and always had been tourist focus. In that respect, I still think it is a big mistake that it wasn't or won't be extended to St. Louis Zoo which is one of the biggest tourist attractions in the region.

As transit, another option is build tracks that hang a right onto Delmar and extend eastward into the city to run a modern low floor streetcar but it will need to utilize existing tracks to reach Forest Park metrolink station.

Delmar Loop Trolley

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