What are they doing with those cars & why? Sorry, sound messed up on video &/or my phone.
Those are amazing looking!
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Those are amazing looking!
It makes sense to run just one car and have a spare from a maintenance/repair standpoint, but why not just get full use out of them and run both? It would only take one additional driver, and since Metro is running the system and there seems to be a healthy amount of MetroLink drivers (there aren't any openings currently), it seems like reducing headways to every 30 minutes over every hour would make bring a lot more visibility and convenience without all that much more cost. The way it currently operates for example if you were to just miss the Trolley say at the history museum, not many would want to wait almost an hour for the next one and those are lost potential passengers. Whereas a family or weekend visitor not in too much of a rush may wait the 20 odd minutes in a 2 car setup. If one car does need maintenance or repairs that can't be made by the next day or over the 3 work days off every week, then no big deal and the 1 hr schedule is put in place temporarily. If the Trolley is going to focus on tourists and leisure trips, it's probably more of a priority to simply see the cars themselves more frequently to inspire trips rather than empty stations for hour long intervals.
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^I understood the historic Melbourne cars, the ones from Seattle, had brake issues that needed to be dealt with. (Which may be why Seattle Trolley unloaded them on us.) The replica cars, from Portland, are probably much more reliable. And a replica makes much more sense from a day to day operating standpoint than historic equipment anyway. A plus: the manufacturer, Gomaco Trolley Company, appears to be in business. And they make cars in styles more appropriate to St. Louis, like the replica Birneys they sold to Little Rock. Another plus: Portland managed to operate both historic cars and modern cars on the same lines, so there's no reason we couldn't.
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I thought of this concept one time. Thinking of a Forest Park Forever and WashU led partnership to get it done.
Forest Park extension connects attractions of the History Museum, Muny, Boathouse, Zoo, Art Hill. I chose a picturesque route along the lake and at the bottom of Art Hill to run the tram primarily through grass and off-street and maximize attractiveness to tourists and visitors. I could see many people just riding this route for the views of the Grand Basin, lake and beauty of the park.
WashU continues to add holdings in the loop and has lots of student residents in the loop. Because the Delmar Loop metrolink stop actually doesn’t directly connect to the WashU campus, there is some reason for them to be interested in a direct transit connection between the loop, WashU north campus, WashU forsyth, and the three light rail stops. This extension could provide solid daily ridership to the system.
The short extension up big bend would be a bonus if the partners wished to create more direct and faster connections for commuters and create a full “loop” for leisure riders to have a complete, convenient experience.
To maximize efficiency and speed, I designated 16 stops:
U City Hall, Chuck Berry Statue, Skinker, Delmar Metro, Delmar & Debaliviere, Forest Park Metro, History Museum, MUNY, Zoo, Art Hill, Brookings Hall, Olympic Field, Big Bend Metro
I’d also rebrand it as the “Pink Line” for the neons of delmar loop, tulips of forest park and cherry blossoms of WashU, or the World’s Fair Loop, the 1904, Bear Tracks, the Louie, or even a sponsorship name, just some kind of new branding other than the “loop trolley” to slowly separate itself from the failed beginnings. Preferably add a couple modern cars. Could still make them unique by decorating them with neons, flowers, art for the odes above. Could keep the 2 vintages and run them along 3 new ones, a big enough fleet to run fairly frequent.
Forest Park extension connects attractions of the History Museum, Muny, Boathouse, Zoo, Art Hill. I chose a picturesque route along the lake and at the bottom of Art Hill to run the tram primarily through grass and off-street and maximize attractiveness to tourists and visitors. I could see many people just riding this route for the views of the Grand Basin, lake and beauty of the park.
WashU continues to add holdings in the loop and has lots of student residents in the loop. Because the Delmar Loop metrolink stop actually doesn’t directly connect to the WashU campus, there is some reason for them to be interested in a direct transit connection between the loop, WashU north campus, WashU forsyth, and the three light rail stops. This extension could provide solid daily ridership to the system.
The short extension up big bend would be a bonus if the partners wished to create more direct and faster connections for commuters and create a full “loop” for leisure riders to have a complete, convenient experience.
To maximize efficiency and speed, I designated 16 stops:
U City Hall, Chuck Berry Statue, Skinker, Delmar Metro, Delmar & Debaliviere, Forest Park Metro, History Museum, MUNY, Zoo, Art Hill, Brookings Hall, Olympic Field, Big Bend Metro
I’d also rebrand it as the “Pink Line” for the neons of delmar loop, tulips of forest park and cherry blossoms of WashU, or the World’s Fair Loop, the 1904, Bear Tracks, the Louie, or even a sponsorship name, just some kind of new branding other than the “loop trolley” to slowly separate itself from the failed beginnings. Preferably add a couple modern cars. Could still make them unique by decorating them with neons, flowers, art for the odes above. Could keep the 2 vintages and run them along 3 new ones, a big enough fleet to run fairly frequent.
I like it.
But remember, the U City NIMBYs freaked out just at the idea of the trolley going around the traffic circle on Delmar, so I'd expect a lot of complaining about the Big Bend run.
But remember, the U City NIMBYs freaked out just at the idea of the trolley going around the traffic circle on Delmar, so I'd expect a lot of complaining about the Big Bend run.
The Forest Park extension makes a lot of sense and it seems fairly straightforward to achieve. The route both @quincunx and @delmar2debaliviere2downtown propose at least to the Zoo would be the natural first phase of expansion. I would go another 900 feet further west on Government Dr. to bring the Zoo stop right to the North Entrance door and parking lot, and closer to the Art Museum which could be connected with a pathway up to the rear entrance.
From looking at the route on Streetview, it appears you could extend the single track ≈11' concrete embedded rails and low curb format that's along DeBaliviere with a few passing/crossover sections along the way, all without even rebuilding much existing curb. With only few changes to storm drains, no signals to replace, little utilities to relocate I would assume, and not even needing to repave the remaining park streets, costs could be kept relatively low. Adding just two stations is fairly modest too, just a low raised platform, shelter, and a bench with some signage. The Liberal Arts bridge it would cross was rebuilt in 2018, and the Pagoda Circle bridge was rebuilt I'm guessing when the whole area was renovated in 2000, so those crossings should be in decent condition to carry the tracks. If no additional cars are purchased and there's no other big expense that's missing in this off the cuff example, then very roughly this could be a $5-$7 million project, maybe less? Definitely in the wheelhouse of what Forest Park Forever has been able to raise, if they were to be the main funding partner to get this done. That would bring the full route to 3.2 miles and about 40 minute headways in a two car operation schedule which if extended to 8 or 9 pm on summer weekends would greatly increase the appeal of riding for tourists and for leisure in my opinion.
From looking at the route on Streetview, it appears you could extend the single track ≈11' concrete embedded rails and low curb format that's along DeBaliviere with a few passing/crossover sections along the way, all without even rebuilding much existing curb. With only few changes to storm drains, no signals to replace, little utilities to relocate I would assume, and not even needing to repave the remaining park streets, costs could be kept relatively low. Adding just two stations is fairly modest too, just a low raised platform, shelter, and a bench with some signage. The Liberal Arts bridge it would cross was rebuilt in 2018, and the Pagoda Circle bridge was rebuilt I'm guessing when the whole area was renovated in 2000, so those crossings should be in decent condition to carry the tracks. If no additional cars are purchased and there's no other big expense that's missing in this off the cuff example, then very roughly this could be a $5-$7 million project, maybe less? Definitely in the wheelhouse of what Forest Park Forever has been able to raise, if they were to be the main funding partner to get this done. That would bring the full route to 3.2 miles and about 40 minute headways in a two car operation schedule which if extended to 8 or 9 pm on summer weekends would greatly increase the appeal of riding for tourists and for leisure in my opinion.
Oh man.. people would RIOT if you took away the run/walk pathway at the bottom of Art Hill.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Mar 04, 2025I thought of this concept one time. Thinking of a Forest Park Forever and WashU led partnership to get it done.
Forest Park extension connects attractions of the History Museum, Muny, Boathouse, Zoo, Art Hill. I chose a picturesque route along the lake and at the bottom of Art Hill to run the tram primarily through grass and off-street and maximize attractiveness to tourists and visitors. I could see many people just riding this route for the views of the Grand Basin, lake and beauty of the park.
WashU continues to add holdings in the loop and has lots of student residents in the loop. Because the Delmar Loop metrolink stop actually doesn’t directly connect to the WashU campus, there is some reason for them to be interested in a direct transit connection between the loop, WashU north campus, WashU forsyth, and the three light rail stops. This extension could provide solid daily ridership to the system.
The short extension up big bend would be a bonus if the partners wished to create more direct and faster connections for commuters and create a full “loop” for leisure riders to have a complete, convenient experience.
To maximize efficiency and speed, I designated 16 stops:
U City Hall, Chuck Berry Statue, Skinker, Delmar Metro, Delmar & Debaliviere, Forest Park Metro, History Museum, MUNY, Zoo, Art Hill, Brookings Hall, Olympic Field, Big Bend Metro
I’d also rebrand it as the “Pink Line” for the neons of delmar loop, tulips of forest park and cherry blossoms of WashU, or the World’s Fair Loop, the 1904, Bear Tracks, the Louie, or even a sponsorship name, just some kind of new branding other than the “loop trolley” to slowly separate itself from the failed beginnings. Preferably add a couple modern cars. Could still make them unique by decorating them with neons, flowers, art for the odes above. Could keep the 2 vintages and run them along 3 new ones, a big enough fleet to run fairly frequent.
You'd have a whole lot less pushback if you routed it up Fine Arts Drive above Art Hill. I love the idea of connectivity though! Well thought out.
Since they’ve sent off the remaining cars, the only reasonable way to expand service or route would require a track retrofit to accommodate more modern cars.
MetroLinks Siemens SD-400 and SD-460 do operate on street level in Pittsburgh.
MetroLinks Siemens SD-400 and SD-460 do operate on street level in Pittsburgh.
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I'm curious what kind of grade these cars are rated to climb
I see this as an opportunity for City to offer streetcar by expanding current system east via Delmar Ave and then hang right down Euclid & maybe across I64 into FPSE as true transit system connecting the Delmar Divide & FPSE with one of biggest employment hubs in the region at same time connecting with metrolink at Forest Park & Barnes Jewish/Wash U. In addition, I think most cities have realized that it costs just as much to collect the fairs as the receive so have gone with free rides. Which makes great sense in developing Delmar Divide & extending CWE development north. I think the same for Grand Ave or say a Broadway river line connecting Soulard and Near North St Louis (Think Rams funds).addxb2 wrote: ↑Mar 04, 2025Since they’ve sent off the remaining cars, the only reasonable way to expand service or route would require a track retrofit to accommodate more modern cars.
MetroLinks Siemens SD-400 and SD-460 do operate on street level in Pittsburgh.
Getting back to thread. Keep the Loop system as is for the loop and extend further into Forest Park to at least the zoo to keep it what it really is. A tourist trolley that will always have big summer weekends and quiet weekdays. Just moved to Dallas and the uptown area has the McKinney trolley. Like the Loop Trolley but on a much bigger scale in terms of coverage & area it serves but it is still a tourist trolley at the end of day. My wife and I realized quickly that it was a terrible transit option and not sure even if putting modern streetcars on it does it any better.
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Haha yes, but I’ve thought they could just extend the decorative stone wall around the lake to separate a walking trail and hill from the tram tracks. I don’t think you’d have to do away with it. It would probably add to the aesthetic and be very European looking with the tram running in park land along a pedestrian pathway.SRQ2STL wrote: ↑Mar 04, 2025Oh man.. people would RIOT if you took away the run/walk pathway at the bottom of Art Hill.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Mar 04, 2025I thought of this concept one time. Thinking of a Forest Park Forever and WashU led partnership to get it done.
Forest Park extension connects attractions of the History Museum, Muny, Boathouse, Zoo, Art Hill. I chose a picturesque route along the lake and at the bottom of Art Hill to run the tram primarily through grass and off-street and maximize attractiveness to tourists and visitors. I could see many people just riding this route for the views of the Grand Basin, lake and beauty of the park.
WashU continues to add holdings in the loop and has lots of student residents in the loop. Because the Delmar Loop metrolink stop actually doesn’t directly connect to the WashU campus, there is some reason for them to be interested in a direct transit connection between the loop, WashU north campus, WashU forsyth, and the three light rail stops. This extension could provide solid daily ridership to the system.
The short extension up big bend would be a bonus if the partners wished to create more direct and faster connections for commuters and create a full “loop” for leisure riders to have a complete, convenient experience.
To maximize efficiency and speed, I designated 16 stops:
U City Hall, Chuck Berry Statue, Skinker, Delmar Metro, Delmar & Debaliviere, Forest Park Metro, History Museum, MUNY, Zoo, Art Hill, Brookings Hall, Olympic Field, Big Bend Metro
I’d also rebrand it as the “Pink Line” for the neons of delmar loop, tulips of forest park and cherry blossoms of WashU, or the World’s Fair Loop, the 1904, Bear Tracks, the Louie, or even a sponsorship name, just some kind of new branding other than the “loop trolley” to slowly separate itself from the failed beginnings. Preferably add a couple modern cars. Could still make them unique by decorating them with neons, flowers, art for the odes above. Could keep the 2 vintages and run them along 3 new ones, a big enough fleet to run fairly frequent.
I love the idea of connectivity though! Well thought out.
The Fine Arts Drive would certainly be better and what everyone would prefer, but people have brought up the issue of getting it physically up the hill. The bottom would be cheaper. I agree with you though that up the drive to the apotheosis would be optimal for many reasons.
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Not sure, but per the Portland Streetcar article they kept the "vintage" cars off the extension from PSU to River Place for fear the grade would damage the motors. And sure, it's a pretty significant grade down into the river valley, but Art Hill is pretty notable too, so I'm guessing they wouldn't make it. Mind you, I'm inclined to suspect modern streetcars would work fine on the Delmar Loop line without any major changes, since Portland operated them next to modern cars, so . . . maybe a modern car could be used on an extension. (Or don't go up Art Hill. But I don't know that I like the bike path plan. I think maybe keep them to the roads.)GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Mar 04, 2025I'm curious what kind of grade these cars are rated to climb
Has Forest Park Forever weighed in on the prospect of extending the trolley into the park? My hunch is that it would be met with fierce opposition on several fronts - noise, visual pollution (overhead wires), pedestrian and cycling safety concerns, etc. A city with a real big picture vision for its future would figure it out though. Extending the line into Forest Park could turn this embarrassment into a source of community pride if St. Louis tunes out the naysayers and commits itself to making it happen.
No. I doubt they'd want to touch it. It's radioactive.
IIMO if we want the trolley to succeed it should go to the Zoo.
IIMO if we want the trolley to succeed it should go to the Zoo.
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If you extended it into Forest Park, couldn’t you also program the trolley every once in a while for paid experiences and tours to raise revenue? I think people would pay to have a Worlds Fair history tour, a live music experience, coffee shop hop, beer bar hop, immersive experiences partners with the zoo/science center/museums, other entertainment). It could certainly raise revenue and make it worth it to Forest Park Forever and the institutions to kick in funds
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The Post-Dispatch posted another shut-the-trolley-down editorial article today.
As much as I side with anyone that wants to get the trolley to the zoo, I don't think it is ever going to happen.
Ride the #90 if you want to go to the zoo, I guess.
As much as I side with anyone that wants to get the trolley to the zoo, I don't think it is ever going to happen.
Ride the #90 if you want to go to the zoo, I guess.
Unless anything is going on in the park or I guess if the driver just feels like it then the bus will divert unannounced onto 40 and your next chance to get off will be at Forest Park Metrolink Station!RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Mar 05, 2025Ride the #90 if you want to go to the zoo, I guess.
^ True, with the "Meet Me in St. Louis" trolley song playing...tourists would eat that up!delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Mar 05, 2025If you extended it into Forest Park, couldn’t you also program the trolley every once in a while for paid experiences and tours to raise revenue? I think people would pay to have a Worlds Fair history tour, a live music experience, coffee shop hop, beer bar hop, immersive experiences partners with the zoo/science center/museums, other entertainment). It could certainly raise revenue and make it worth it to Forest Park Forever and the institutions to kick in funds
The trolley is back up and running after storm repairs. Free all Summer.
I imagine this is because they lack air conditioning and its not safe for the driver and/or the passengers
A lot of regrets, but passenger traffic has notched up the past two years. This is a one-mile extension away from being something St. Louisans want everywhere. Run it down Olive-Lindell, and brand goes from Trolley to Streetcar.
Even if the next phase looked like Lindell & Debaliviere to Lindell & Euclid.
Even if the next phase looked like Lindell & Debaliviere to Lindell & Euclid.