urbanSTL

You also have to consider the entertainment development that has occurred in the last decade throughout the City. Delmar Loop has more competition than it did ten years ago. Not only CWE but now the Grove, Midtown, and Downtown (BPV, Union Station, Wash Ave) are each drawing significantly more dollars than they were ten years ago. Delmar Loop came back from COVID as yesterday's entertainment district. 

Alongside residential, I think the loop just needs a lot more businesses that aren't solely meant for entertainment or tourists. I think that one of the biggest strengths of South Grand in comparison to the Loop is that it has a lot of practical small businesses that predate its status as an "entertainment district" and directly serve local residents as opposed to just people driving in for a night out. The same applies to a lot of the Central West End. 

A lot of this is on WashU, they own a number of important lots surrounding the metro station and they have the money to start developing it tomorrow

And yet the landlords refuse to lower the rent they are charging to the market rate.

The loop needs residential infill. There's too many "blighted" properties by the technical definition than there should be in a prime business district. If the city is ever to become more cohesive, it has to start by actually diversifying and developing Delmar itself. It is amazing that the Central West End and Midtown refuse to even go past Washington (Kingshighway just north of Delmar needs a whole new plan, just horrible development planning).

So anytime I think of why the Loop can't get back over the hump, this map of excess parking, undeveloped properties and vacant buildings is why. The most atrocious blocks being the north side of Delmar from the Delmar Loop Metrolink down to Debaliviere. Then obviously all the way down Delmar to downtown and the abutting neighborhoods are rather spacey. 

East Loop CID, Delmar Main Street, Maxine Clark,  the Maker's District, Kingsway Elevation District are all working on it. WashU needs to get off its ass and start building. It's the catalyst we need. The goal should be 1000 housing units by the Delmar station.  EWG awarded $500k for feasibility study for the Wabash Station. SD, the CID, and West End tried to get a CDA grant to do a street diet on Delmar east of the Metrolink bridge, but it wasn't selected. Lower interest rates would help. It's holding up the Bridge at Delmar and Euclid and probably other things. A few property owners/ land speculators need to die or otherwise get out of the way. Moving the vacant lot we call Lucier Park up to Delmar as shown in the neighborhood plan needs support. Everyone is turned off by the city-wide vote that would be required. The Metro garage needs to move elsewhere.

quincunx wrote: ↑

Jul 03, 2024

East Loop CID, Delmar Main Street, Maxine Clark,  the Maker's District, Kingsway Elevation District are all working on it. WashU needs to get off its ass and start building. It's the catalyst we need. The goal should be 1000 housing units by the Delmar station.  EWG awarded $500k for feasibility study for the Wabash Station. SD, the CID, and West End tried to get a CDA grant to do a street diet on Delmar east of the Metrolink bridge, but it wasn't selected. Lower interest rates would help. It's holding up the Bridge at Delmar and Euclid and probably other things. A few property owners/ land speculators need to die or otherwise get out of the way. Moving the vacant lot we call Lucier Park up to Delmar as shown in the neighborhood plan needs support. Everyone is turned off by the city-wide vote that would be required. The Metro garage needs to move elsewhere.

Agree. There’s a lot of work to do. The greenway and trolley (with real service) could be a lot more useful too with the infill. A road diet would be great.

The metro garage takes up so much space…
The lack of TOD around Wabash is just so poor…
The useless parking lot by the Trolley shed…
The unused excess parking behind the farmers market, at WashU campus and the Park&Ride Delmar…
The vacant land at Skinker-Delmar and along Skinker…

I do wonder who owns some of those abandoned strip malls and buildings on the east side of the station. They look horrible

All these lots could be dense apartment housing and they would fill up. The loop could be so vibrant. The loop is a great example of not getting the region under one vision.

Are they finally going to build the large residential complex at Leland or are they still fighting about more parking? Ugh

Sadly the East Loop CID built the parking lot next to the Trolley barn to placate businesses' complaints about not enough parking. Does it ever have cars in it?

A couple of the properties are owned by someone in St. Charles. The one at Goodfellow people in Tennessee. Just waiting for the big pay day.

quincunx wrote: ↑

Jul 03, 2024

Sadly the East Loop CID built the parking lot next to the Trolley barn to placate businesses' complaints about not enough parking. Does it ever have cars in it?

A couple of the properties are owned by someone in St. Charles. The one at Goodfellow people in Tennessee. Just waiting for the big pay day.

Always always empty. The Delmar Park & Ride always empty too.

The loop west of the station feels so disconnected from the loop east of the station and it all feels separate from Debaliviere.

The building with the “hair city” and the adjacent completely abandoned building gotta be some of the worst eyesores in the region. Top 5 ugly abandoned building for me. All sandwiched in between a less than savory gas station and another abandoned building next to a family dollar. Sheesh it’s a rough stretch with trashed sidewalks

I thought a rehab was being done at the cool building at Delmar Debaliviere southeast corner but no movement lately. There’s a ton of unused surface parking there too.

If the Loop Trolley were a MLB team, 2024 was the stabilization and 2025 will be the rebuild.

https://www.firstalert4.com/2024/11/11/ ... ridership/

Time to expand while it’s hot!

In 2025, I'd like to see more hours and more frequency. 

I personally think there can be use in the thing. It connects with two MetroLink stops. 

It'd probably be better if the streetcars could be more modern with AC. 

I live in DeBaliviere Place, so the trolley could be useful for me to take to the loop. I think I would use it a bit more if it had extended summer hours (even to 8 or 9) so I could ride it back to my place after grabbing dinner/drinks on the loop and if the trolley schedule showed up as a public transit option when using Google Maps.

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nahart wrote: ↑

Nov 12, 2024

I live in DeBaliviere Place, so the trolley could be useful for me to take to the loop. I think I would use it a bit more if it had extended summer hours (even to 8 or 9) so I could ride it back to my place after grabbing dinner/drinks on the loop and if the trolley schedule showed up as a public transit option when using Google Maps.

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Underrated issue with StL transit - trolley and major bus lines do not show up on transit map on google maps or apple maps. This type of transit shows up many places

I also notice we don’t have the amount of detail in apple maps as far as our street lanes, etc as some other cities. I don’t know what the standard is for Apple Maps to map that/how to get that done

I also hate that St. Louis is not one of the featured cities in Apple Guides and don’t have any StL guides uploaded on the app. Maybe this is something that Explore STL could get on because I notice Apple continues to add new cities

Poor Loop Trolley. I feel bad for it.

Stl PR - Bi-State to operate Loop Trolley for another three years


https://www.stlpr.org/news-briefs/2025- ... hree-years

Hey Joe, any money you got to extend it through Forest Park?

I see 32 hours a week. Assume that’s the 11-7 Thursday-Sunday schedule. I hope they run more than one train an hour. I think if they use all three of their trams, people would be more likely to use it

It honestly was packed on Thursday nights and Saturdays last summer often

They sent away the old cars.

It's a total pipedream, but a Forest Park extension could be incredible. If the trolley would run to most of the park's best attractions, including the Grand Basin, Art Museum, Zoo, Apotheosis, World's Fair Pavilion, Boathouse, Nathan Frank Bandstand, and Muny, I think you would have something special that would get tons of use. 

The Trolley connects with two MetroLink stops, including the transfer station of the blue and red lines. You would think the Delmar Loop would benefit immensely as well. 

I think you would be fine to shut off the Forest Park portion of the route by 7 p.m., but I'd hope in this pipedream that the existing portion of the route would operate later into the night, at least on the weekends. Say, 11 p.m.

RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑

Mar 03, 2025

It's a total pipedream, but a Forest Park extension could be incredible. If the trolley would run to most of the park's best attractions, including the Grand Basin, Art Museum, Zoo, Apotheosis, World's Fair Pavilion, Boathouse, Nathan Frank Bandstand, and Muny, I think you would have something special that would get tons of use. 

The Trolley connects with two MetroLink stops, including the transfer station of the blue and red lines. You would think the Delmar Loop would benefit immensely as well. 

I think you would be fine to shut off the Forest Park portion of the route by 7 p.m., but I'd hope in this pipedream that the existing portion of the route would operate later into the night, at least on the weekends. Say, 11 p.m.

Yea, I think it would be very popular if it extended by Forest Park attractions. At night, it would be popular as basically a bar hopping trolley with some more nightlife along Delmar and Debaliviere (essentially what Cincy, KC and Milwaukees are used for right now).

Also, we already have those cars and were planning to run it. Seems like running 4 cars would really necesario the viability of the loop trolley. But I guess that would require two more operators, maintenance, etc. It’s a cyclical issue of bare service, bare ridership, bare productivity I suppose. Can’t justify more service and cars running, but without it, it will never be as productive as it should be

Can we also at least get it on maps and the transit app? That would do a lot for ridership

For all the criticism with the project, Edwards is still an undoubtedly creative mind. I wish he and some other heavy pocket people that have had an interest in this thing to give it creative uses and make it into an attraction at this point

Forest Park Forever are the people to lobby for this to ever have a dream of happening. Even under a Kamala Harris administration it wouldn't have a chance of getting grant funding.

It would likely be relatively cheap to build through Forest Park assuming it's build mostly off the street network. Unfortunately this might have to be a challenge for the next generation because them selling off the extra streetcars probably puts the final nail in the coffin for any expansion fantasies.

I'd run it to the zoo like so. Flat and less than a mile. If it went to the zoo, it'd be loved. 

^  Yes, Yes and Yes.   The route and extension as quincunx layed out should be an absolute priority for Forest Park Forever.   Having a stop at the boathouse to boot.   Literally talking the track and wire as everything else is in place.  I know the tracks is little more to it because you essentially rebuilding/repaving the street but none the less a very low hanging fruit to keep the trolley sustainable while promoting the Loop

Hopefully the two bridges wouldn't need to be replaced.